Katawa Shoujo Forums

KeiichiO wrote:

Potato wrote:

ParagonTerminus wrote:I was consulting one of my friends on pretty much every choice in Lilly's path

Way to play the game wrong.

Yeah, because there's a 'wrong' way to play a visual novel.

No, but I do kind of have to agree with Potato here. It's like reading a CYOA book and keeping your finger on the page with the choices on it, then going back and picking the good choice. It's as close to cheating in something like this as you can get, and it sort of defeats the purpose.

KeiichiO wrote:

Potato wrote:

ParagonTerminus wrote:I was consulting one of my friends on pretty much every choice in Lilly's path

Way to play the game wrong.

Yeah, because there's a 'wrong' way to play a visual novel.

Exactly.

Once i started, the blind choises made me get to Emi's path, but i stopped halfway and completed Hanako's path first.
So i went Hanako -> Emi -> Rin -> Shizune -> Lilly -> Kenji.
I Did Lilly's path last because i become spoilerd enough during my first 2 paths to know the true Lilly, and i felt really related to her so i saved the best for last

SpunkySix wrote:No, but I do kind of have to agree with Potato here. It's like reading a CYOA book and keeping your finger on the page with the choices on it, then going back and picking the good choice. It's as close to cheating in something like this as you can get, and it sort of defeats the purpose.

I disagree. A visual novel by its nature isn't a game. It's a series of stories. I didn't view it as a test to be defeated; I viewed it as a series of potentialities. I freely admit that I played the entire game using the flowchart Feuver made, because I was more interested in seeing the stories than I was at guessing at options. You gonna sit here and tell me I did it wrong & had a less moving experience as a result? '

Overall, I don't think there really is any such thing as "cheating" in something like this. Cheating implies a win state - which doesn't exist, since you do not play this game to "win", unless you count a 100% gallery as a win - or at least screws over fellow players (impossible here because it's a single-player game). Cheating implies a game, and in the end, KS is first and foremost not a game, but a story.

d2r wrote:

SpunkySix wrote:No, but I do kind of have to agree with Potato here. It's like reading a CYOA book and keeping your finger on the page with the choices on it, then going back and picking the good choice. It's as close to cheating in something like this as you can get, and it sort of defeats the purpose.

I disagree. A visual novel by its nature isn't a game. It's a series of stories. I didn't view it as a test to be defeated; I viewed it as a series of potentialities. I freely admit that I played the entire game using the flowchart Feuver made, because I was more interested in seeing the stories than I was at guessing at options. You gonna sit here and tell me I did it wrong & had a less moving experience as a result? '

Overall, I don't think there really is any such thing as "cheating" in something like this. Cheating implies a win state - which doesn't exist, since you do not play this game to "win", unless you could a 100% gallery as a win - or at least screws over fellow players (impossible here because it's a single-player game). Cheating implies a game, and in the end, KS is first and foremost not a game, but a story.

I'm not going to tell you you're wrong or that you had a bad experience because that's not true, but I will tell you that you did miss out on the tension and need for deep reflection that comes from not knowing for sure what you're supposed to do that having choices brings to the table, which is their reason for being there in the first place. Hisao doesn't have a flow chart with him, so looking at that kind of takes away some of the immersion because you don't feel the stresses that he does when an important decision rolls around.

What spunky said, i personally never looked at any flowcharts until i was purposely attempting to 100% the game with bad endings and wanted to see what the flags were.

SpunkySix wrote:I'm not going to tell you you're wrong or that you had a bad experience because that's not true, but I will tell you that you did miss out on the tension and need for deep reflection that comes from not knowing for sure what you're supposed to do that having choices brings to the table, which is their reason for being there in the first place. Hisao doesn't have a flow chart with him, so looking at that kind of takes away some of the immersion because you don't feel the stresses that he does when an important decision rolls around.

That's like saying an ordinary novel has less immersion because you don't make the choices along with its characters. Hisao doesn't have a flowchart with him, but then, I'm not Hisao. I'm a person reading about Hisao. I'm immersed in the narrative, but I'm immersed based on the strength of the writing: I'm interested in the story of what happens to Hisao given X, not what will happen if Hisao does X (if that makes any sense at all).

On choice in VNs, I think A22 said it best, so I'm just gonna quote him here:

Anonymous22 wrote:[...] I was thinking of adding more choices in Shizune's route later on but realized it was pointless because I was too lazy to effectively structure the thing so every choice meant something. So in the end the choices would be false choices tripping arbitrary switches to put you on rails to one of two endings. Aura [in Rin's route] did interesting things with structure, but most of the time, you're not going to see that in a VN and I would just take the standard route out of laziness. If given the choice between a bunch of meaningless fake choices that people would just reload the game through until they got to their ending of choice, and a choice that actually changes the writing in noticeable ways, I'd rather have the latter.

On visual novels in general, these things aren't really novels, and using words like "gameplay" is giving them a little too much credit. It's more like a play where you're given multiple endings.

This basically summarizes my feelings on the matter. Choices can often be arbitrary - one example is in Lilly's route, where choosing not to open yourself unreservedly in "A Brief History of Thyme" obviates all subsequent decisions by, as A22 might put it, placing you "on rails" to the neutral ending. I like to know the story I'm getting - that way, I can appreciate the differences between routes and endings rather than reloading over and over, and guessing what will get me a "good ending" - which may or may not be something totally arbitrary.

At least, that's how I played the game. I'm not fool enough to say that what worked for me is the objectively best way to experience the novel. Different people interact with VNs in different ways, and that's perfectly fine. But I think it's a legitimate one, on the whole - therefore not a "wrong" one, and certainly not "cheating".

EDIT: Here's the source of A22's quotation, for any interested parties.

I worded it wrong by saying "cheating". That said, VNs without choices can't really be compared 1 to 1 with VNs with them, since those are built around not making choices, while the ones with choices, (that are done well) are built around making them, at least to some extent. While certain choices are arbitrary, there are a number of them in KS that challenge you to think critically about what you have read and the character that you are responding to before choosing with direct, non-arbitrary consequences following the choice, and using a flow chart totally kills that.

Still, I agree 100% that there really is no "wrong" way to read the novel, so in that sense I can't really blame you for using one. It's just something that I think would have hurt the experience for me personally, and it's not something I'd outright recommend.

SpunkySix wrote:I worded it wrong by saying "cheating". That said, VNs without choices can't really be compared 1 to 1 with VNs with them, since those are built around not making choices, while the ones with choices, (that are done well) are built around making them, at least to some extent. While certain choices are arbitrary, there are a number of them in KS that challenge you to think critically about what you have read and the character that you are responding to before choosing with direct, non-arbitrary consequences following the choice, and using a flow chart totally kills that.

Still, I agree 100% that there really is no "wrong" way to read the novel, so in that sense I can't really blame you for using one. It's just something that I think would have hurt the experience for me personally, and it's not something I'd outright recommend.

Reading it using skip mode, pretty wrong way to do it.

CoffeeDrive wrote:

SpunkySix wrote:I worded it wrong by saying "cheating". That said, VNs without choices can't really be compared 1 to 1 with VNs with them, since those are built around not making choices, while the ones with choices, (that are done well) are built around making them, at least to some extent. While certain choices are arbitrary, there are a number of them in KS that challenge you to think critically about what you have read and the character that you are responding to before choosing with direct, non-arbitrary consequences following the choice, and using a flow chart totally kills that.

Still, I agree 100% that there really is no "wrong" way to read the novel, so in that sense I can't really blame you for using one. It's just something that I think would have hurt the experience for me personally, and it's not something I'd outright recommend.

Reading it using skip mode, pretty wrong way to do it.

But it is silly fun after the fact.

Remember, A22 wrote the least popular character and route in the game, for what it's worth.

Still, even then, he wrote it in reference to writing the route. That's not what you're doing. You're playing them. Or reading them. or experiencing them. Whichever word you prefer to use.

You shouldn't know that a choice is arbitrary. You shouldn't know ahead of time that this option will lead you to this scene. If Emi yells at you and kicks you pout of the house, there should be some part of you wondering if maybe you made a mistake somewhere. You shouldn't know where the game ends before you get there.

When you finish the game and get the good ending it should be because you made all the right choices. There's a sense of pride and accomplishment with that. If you get the bad, it's because you misjudged things and messed up.

Instead of experiencing the events and emotions alongside Hisao, you're just reading them. There's no connection there.

Wall of text time.

Oddball wrote:Remember, A22 wrote the least popular character and route in the game, for what it's worth.

That is worth nothing. Meaning is subjective, as is enjoyment. Also, how popular his writing was has no bearing on whether or not his opinions have value.

Oddball wrote:Still, even then, he wrote it in reference to writing the route.

True, but I think it can apply to the process of reading KS as well.

Oddball wrote:When you finish the game and get the good ending it should be because you made all the right choices.

What is a "good" ending, and what are the "right" choices? Some happy endings are, IMO, less artistically-satisfying than the "bad" ones - for instance, I think Lilly and Rin's Neutral endings make for a more compelling story overall than their good ones. I mean, don't get me wrong: my heart isn't so iron that I wasn't touched when Hisao ran after Lilly - I'm a sucker for melodrama - but in the end, the inevitability of loss in her neutral ending, that his "perfect girlfriend" cannot hope to last, that his plans for the future are empty, makes for what I personally think is a more satisfying story. You appear to be assuming that I need to work toward a "win" state where Hisao is in a relationship with the girl, but you cannot win a story. You can only experience it. The closest thing KS has to a win state is getting a 100% gallery.

I think that's where you and I differ in how we see KS. It's OK to see it as a game - if that's what makes it most meaningful for you, or anyone else, that's perfectly fine. I just disagree that it's necessarily the best way - the best way depends on the person.

Oddball wrote:Instead of experiencing the events and emotions alongside Hisao, you're just reading them. There's no connection there.

This I disagree with entirely. What you're saying implies that when I read a "true" novel (or, for that matter, watch a movie or play a linear video game), I can't experience the events and emotions alongside its character because of the fact that a novel offers me no choices in the first place and I'm just "reading" it. Which is obviously false.

Connection is a matter of emotional investment. For some, this investment may come through participating in choice along with the character. There's nothing wrong with this. It's simply not how I chose to experience KS. I'm amused that you (appear to be) claiming my experience was worsened as a result, that I ended up not connecting with the characters (and I assure you that is false), when the fact of the matter is that there is no objectively "wrong" way to experience any work, let alone KS.

Also, I didn't play KS for the accomplishment of mastery, any more than I read a book just for the sake of finishing it. I played it to experience the stories. The story is central. It's why you can come back to the game even if you know what does what and still enjoy yourself. Yes, I knew the broad outlines of the story - but did I know what would happen? The specifics? Look at the flowchart - it's as spoiler-free as a walkthrough gets. I knew the broad outlines, but not the details, and it's the details where the beauty lies. Also, knowing the broad outlines gave me a sort of fatalistic view on the game, which was interesting in and of itself.

Also, let me bust out my student cred here and note that a recent psychological study (Kaufman, Geoff F., and Lisa K. Libby. “Changing Beliefs and Behavior Through Experience-Taking”. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 2012, Vol. 103, No. 1, pp. 1-19.) noted that when we read a novel, we often in some sense assume the identity of the focal character of that narrative, simulating, to a greater or lesser extent, the "thoughts, emotions, behaviours, goals, and traits" of the character as if they were our own. And I personally feel that this is plausible in and of itself. Who among us hasn't read a novel which moved us, a story so good we felt like we were there? I'm with the postmodernists on this one: in the act of reading, we become that which we read.

Given this, then in reading the story, to the extent I enjoy it enough to invest myself, there is a connection. If in reading we become the read, in reading, I become Hisao, if only for a time. And isn't that "connection", in the end? Isn't that emotional investment?

tl;dr There is no "right" or "best" way to experience Katawa Shoujo.

Disclaimer: This person has not 100% the game yet, nor does he plan to get every ending, as he is too weak to force a bad end.

Hanako (Finished)[Natural] > Shizune (In progress)[Natural} > Emi (In Progress)[Natural} > Lilly (Not Started)[Wishful Thiking] > Rin (Not started)[Wishful Thinking]

This ordering is most likely due to me being indecisive after having a very clear choice between Emi and Shizune, so I started both and will most likely finish Shizune first. Lilly will most likely come before Rin knowing myself, and I also was actually aiming for her before I had some feels for Hanako.

Disclaimer: The order of playing does not represent order of favor, although my signature may reveal that at a later date.

Manly Picnic via Rin > Lilly > Hanako > Rin > Emi.

I was doing Shizune's route when my laptop did a Hisao and died on me.

Serviam wrote:Manly Picnic via Rin > Lilly > Hanako > Rin > Emi.

I was doing Shizune's route when my laptop did a Hisao and died on me.

I bet it was because you tried to comfort some other piece of software.