In Ruin [Hisao, Miki, Lilly neutral end] [now with epilogue]

[Helbereth]

I think discussing character motivations is an excellent way to occupy a writer's free time - even well past the extent to which I've seen here. They say, "write what you know;" well, one of the ways to expand what you know is to talk it out and get other people's opinions on the matter. To see how their life experience influences their perspective. I think it's healthy, really. This kind of discussion provokes actual thought rather than anger most of the time, at least for me. It has to be better than the obnoxious trolling ever-present on most forums - as long as it stays civil.

[nemz]

Hisao because of the initial cheating as well as delaying the call to Lilly that could potentially fix everything. It could also potentially ruin everything, and that was why he was putting it off, which he made clear. He also told Miki he wanted to do it himself, but he shows later that he had no plans of doing it himself in the first place and that he was just putting off the inevitable.

He wouldn't have done it eventually on his own? You implied he felt he was starting to fall for Miki rather than just seeing her as a replacement so I expected it was just taking a little longer to build up. As far as blame goes though I still think his cheating is potentially the worse of the two; either he's giving emotional as well as sexual intimacy to another (while Lilly offers only the latter) or he's stringing Miki along in a depersonalized fashion. And don't forget hitting her.

We find out during the epilogue (and at the tail end of the first part) that Miki only acted like she did to get Lilly off of Hisao's case, because Miki herself fell in love with Hisao during their exploits together.

Yes, but she knew what she was getting into and her loving Hisao has nothing directly to do with his relationship to Lilly. Honestly she shouldn't have gotten into the middle of things in the first place though... knowingly getting involved with someone in a relationship is a bad thing.

Lilly isn't safe from the blame either, because she was doing the exact same thing as Hisao. She was cheating on him just as he was on her, with that difference that she never made plans to tell him about it. As a matter of fact, Lilly is arguably more the antagonist than Miki because she was willing to keep cheating on Hisao forever, pretending they were still in a relationship.

Not sure I see it that way at all. Yeah the cheating is a problem but how is telling him going to do anything but hurt him? There are times when lying is a kindness. It's your story of course, but I suspect she's lying to herself when she says she doesn't still love him. If not why carry on the charade rather than pursue one of these other gentlemen honestly? She's punishing herself both for leaving him and for being too weak to live with the natural results of her choice, but why would she do that if she didn't still love him?

But Hisao? Lilly? They'll totally cheat again, because they know how to do it and have shown they're perfectly okay with it.

I'm not seeing that, man. I think that this is only a result of the situation, and without the insurmountable distance I don't think either would be particularly prone to cheating on another person in the future. I'm not even entirely sure I'd call it cheating when they're separated with no plans to reunite. Sure it feels like cheating, but who are they really kidding here? The relationship is already dead, just lingering pointlessly because neither has gathered the courage to pull the plug and make it official.

[Mirage_GSM]

As far as blame goes though I still think his cheating is potentially the worse of the two; either he's giving emotional as well as sexual intimacy to another (while Lilly offers only the latter)...

Not sure I see it that way at all. Yeah the cheating is a problem but how is telling him going to do anything but hurt him? There are times when lying is a kindness.

Lilly ONLY offers the latter? At least Hisao HAS some emotional investment (i.e. Reason for cheating). Lilly is betraying the trust just for the sex. (Not that avoiding making the call isn't a dick move to both girls.)
For me a relationship is all about trust, and there's nothing that can excuse lying in this situation. If she didn't want to hurt him, she shouldn't have cheated in the first place - or simply ended the relationship for good before she left for Scotland.

[nemz]

Lilly ONLY offers the latter? At least Hisao HAS some emotional investment (i.e. Reason for cheating). Lilly is betraying the trust just for the sex. (Not that avoiding making the call isn't a dick move to both girls.)

So you'd be less hurt by a partners cheating if they were having an extended loving affair with someone else as opposed to having meaningless sex when you're not physically accessible? Of course I'd prefer neither, but of the two the latter is a much lighter hit to roll with, at least to my way of thinking.

For me a relationship is all about trust, and there's nothing that can excuse lying in this situation. If she didn't want to hurt him, she shouldn't have cheated in the first place - or simply ended the relationship for good before she left for Scotland.

Well of course, but once the deed is done what good does the truth do anyone? There are times when living a lie is a sacrifice for the happiness of others.

[Bagheera]

So you'd be less hurt by a partners cheating if they were having an extended loving affair with someone else as opposed to having meaningless sex when you're not physically accessible? Of course I'd prefer neither, but of the two the latter is a much lighter hit to roll with, at least to my way of thinking.

If they're gonna throw me away anyway I'd rather it be for something than nothing.

Well of course, but once the deed is done what good does the truth do anyone? There are times when living a lie is a sacrifice for the happiness of others.

Everyone's different, of course. Me, I'd rather know the truth, no matter how ugly. I'll forgive just about anything, but if a person won't tell me the truth I will never be able to trust them. If that trust is unearned lying to me to maintain it isn't doing me any favors.

I side with Miki in all of this because she fucked up, owned it, and did her best to make amends. Lilly didn't care enough to bother, and Hisao didn't even understand the situation (also, physical assault, so fuck him). Time for Miki to dump his ass and go find Suzu.

[Total Destruction]

Time for Miki to dump his ass and go find Suzu.

Smartest thing to come outta this thread. We win again.

[Mirage_GSM]

I wanted to reply to the question, but there is nothing I can add to what Bagheera already wrote. I am glad I am not the only one who thinks this way.

[nemz]

If they're gonna throw me away anyway I'd rather it be for something than nothing.

True, but I don't necessarily see the meaningless sex with lots of people as throwing the relationship away... more like next-level masturbation. I wouldn't be happy about it but the emotional connection matters much more to me than sex.

Me, I'd rather know the truth, no matter how ugly. I'll forgive just about anything, but if a person won't tell me the truth I will never be able to trust them. If that trust is unearned lying to me to maintain it isn't doing me any favors.

If I knew something was wrong it would drive me crazy until I found out, but if she could keep it discrete there's no reason to suspect in the first place. If you don't know it's a lie how can it affect your trust in them?

[Mirage_GSM]

Well, my GF having "meanigless sex with lots of people" would just about terminate any emotional connection there might have been.
And I would not KNOW that I had a reason to distrust her. If I found out even if I were able to forgive her, there's no way I could continue the relationship.

[Bagheera]

True, but I don't necessarily see the meaningless sex with lots of people as throwing the relationship away... more like next-level masturbation. I wouldn't be happy about it but the emotional connection matters much more to me than sex.

That's easier said than done IME. Even if she could really compatamentalize like that it would only work out if he felt similarly about such things, and (again IME) such attitudes tend to be the exception rather than the rule.

If I knew something was wrong it would drive me crazy until I found out, but if she could keep it discrete there's no reason to suspect in the first place. If you don't know it's a lie how can it affect your trust in them?

I'm thinking about what happens when the lie comes out (as such things tend to). If she knows I'd forgive her she's patronizing me by keeping quiet. Is she knows I won't she's being selfish at my expense. Is she's not sure she's being a coward (and if she doesn't know there's probably not much to save there anyway).

If she knows she fucked up, knows I would forgive her, and knows she can keep it quiet, then . . . Okay, I guess? Though honestly I'd rather she didn't have to deal with that alone so we're back to the first option above.

[nemz]

I don't particularly want an open relationship, but If we're talking about it only happening when one of us is on an extended trips to faraway lands then I could probably live with it as long as when she's with me she's only with me. I'd just insist she stay safe, stay casual, keep the details to herself and don't complain if I indulge in the same way when we're apart. If she has a guilty conscience about something (as long as we aren't talking injury, disease or pregnancy) then living with it is the price she has to pay for her freedom... unburdening herself on me in an attempt to feel better and seek absolution I would see as selfishly harming my blissful, willful ignorance on the subject.

[Brogurt]

you guys sure like talking about NTR