All ages version?

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Warwick
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Re: All ages version?

Post by Warwick » Fri May 01, 2009 1:30 am

Nosson, you make some great points there, and I totally agree with you. I, too, have complete confidence in the writers to pull it off. It's just a concern I'm voicing just to point out the elephant in the room.

Fiction is telling a story, and one essential aspect is atmosphere. I'm just noting that the initial introduction for the setting belies the eventual H content down the line. An initial, objective opinion of the game so far would point to a slice-of-life style atmosphere, and the general tone of innocence and self-discovery leads one to focus on those aspects, leaving any romantic relations to remain in the platonic realm, since all we see are the playful hijinks of schoolkids. While I'm sure there will be a coming-of-age aspect to the story, in which sex will obviously be a part, its inevitable shadow over the current, almost pastoral ambiance is what's unsettling for me.

I guess this comes from the fact that other Eroge wear the aspect of sex on their sleeve moreso than KS. To them, it's a selling point. Either the main character's a pervert who wanted to bed the heroines from the beginning or the situation is fantastic enough that even something as shocking as sleeping with someone you've barely known for a week is not considered unusual ("I've heard relationships based on intense experiences never work." --Speed). Other eroge take everything and drive it towards the eventual sex. Perhaps those who are more familiar with visual novels are conditioned for that and are shocked because Katawa Shoujo breaks these cliches and offers the chance for a wholesome relationship (disclaimer: I know that there are "true love" style eroge, too, but I'm not as familiar with them, so I cannot comment). Leigh Alexander calls the heroines in eroge oversimplified "avatars of the turbulent teen years." Katawa Shoujo pulls no punches and refuses to allow that to happen.
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Re: All ages version?

Post by Guest » Fri May 01, 2009 2:02 am

omg, there's going to be sex scenes with these disabled girls!?!
that came in my mind when I read the first post. I know it's imperative that it'll happen but just being up that thought is rather, perplexing. Anyways, I think for the sake of making a model for more western-made visual novels you guys should make one non H version some time. I mean I don't think anyone outside the particular visual novel audience would be so touched to read through this kind of visual novel without H scenes. In Japan maybe but I don't think there would be enough westerners to care.
I am giving a kind of mixed message I know, but what I'm saying is the audience focus in the west is different from the east, H scenes would not be very much welcome in the west, especially after one of the vice city games had to be re-rated AO just because of one extra side scene where you could have sex with some chick. Pheonix Wright, although very different from most visual novels, seems to have had some success in the west so maybe Katawa Shoujo could be the first dating sim game, with no H scenes, to make money. If you guys are actually planning on selling the game, big time that is, make a non H version. I personally think the words "cripple" and "dating sim" in the same sentence would be enough to catch most people's attention. Otherwise, no.

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Re: All ages version?

Post by Peorth » Fri May 01, 2009 2:12 am

Lulz wrote:Since I'm pretty much one of the folks responsible for the "offhand" comment, I'll contribute.

First off, if the sex is taken out, seeing as this is a game about people with disabilities, it could and would reach out to the numerous disabled people around the world. If we cater this game towards them, as well as the original audience with the non-H version, and the perverts with the regular version, we may be able to reach out to a very large audience.
Losstarot wrote:I'm not really for it, but Lulz makes a good point about appealing to actual disabled people with a non-H version.

Also, I like to think we have a decent audience for this VN and would actual generate a fair amount of interest.
I'm disabled, and I would rather the sex be left in, quite honestly.

I don't see how sex vs. no sex would allow the game to appeal to more disabled people? Are you suggesting that disabled people find sex disgusting, or what? lol.
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Re: All ages version?

Post by Peorth » Fri May 01, 2009 2:26 am

Guest wrote:....so maybe Katawa Shoujo could be the first dating sim game, with no H scenes, to make money. If you guys are actually planning on selling the game, big time that is, make a non H version. I personally think the words "cripple" and "dating sim" in the same sentence would be enough to catch most people's attention. Otherwise, no.
Except we're not planning on selling the game.
Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.

Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.

---We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.

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Re: All ages version?

Post by NSP » Fri May 01, 2009 7:14 am

I'd just like to throw in a word for the anti-H-scene crowd.

I just played the demo last night, and aside from watching the KyoAni adaptations of the Key stuff, it is my only experience with VNs, so feel free to completely disregard what I say. For the same reason, I'll try to keep this short and to the point (try).

A dating sim/H-game is basically either wish fulfilment or just porn. A good story is wasted on them. A story this good anyway (to say that the demo surpassed my expectations would be a massive understatement). Conversely, being used as an excuse for sex scenes will make any story, no matter how good, hollow.


-Possibly unnecessary elaboration follows-

I notice that it has been said that the sex is going to be properly worked into the story. Be that as it may, the mere presence of the sex scenes is an imposition on the story of expectations placed on the type of game. Moreover, the fact that this is a VN means that the sex scenes will always be a 'selling point' or focal point of the game. No matter how well written, the story is being forced into the 'choose, date, sex, reset, repeat' structure of a typical VN. Throughout the story there is the knowledge that in the end it only exists to facilitate slightly more immersive porn.
In fact, I think I'd rather a story where the H-scenes come out of nowhere and don't fit into the story, because then at least the story isn't affected by their presence, and can be taken separately to some degree.

Now, sex can be useful, appropriate, or even essential for the proper progression of a story, but this being a VN, I don't think the H-scenes are likely to be subtle, understated affairs which exist solely to enhance the material which precedes and follows, no matter how well written, for the reasons above.

Not that I have a problem with either sex stories or wish fulfilment, but I can get the former from /b/ and there is plenty of the latter out there already. In this project I see the potential to be a lot more.


But maybe I'm just talking crap because I'm not used to VNs. And since the discussion is about an additional non-H version, not about altering the original, my point about not 'round peg into a square hole'ing the story is irrelevant anyway, as the 'true story' still would be. But I really loved the demo, so I can't keep my mouth shut.
Anyway, however the final product turns out, you guys are awesome just for what you have accomplished so far.

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Re: All ages version?

Post by cpl_crud » Fri May 01, 2009 7:50 am

Okay, I know that I obviously have a little more experience with the script that you guys, so forgive me for "jumping ahead" as it were. I'll try not to spoil too much.

Part of the original "specification" for this game, all the way back to RAITA's omake page, was that it was going ot be a Renai game (In other words, a dating sim). For us, that has been a much of a part of the game as the girls.

That may not seem like the best excuse, but please let me finish.

Sex is a pretty natural part of life, and it doesn't need to be pornographic. Many novels feature sex scenes but aren't classed as "Adult" or "pornographic".
I like to think that Katawa Shoujo's sex scenes are written in the same vein. They are a natural part of the story, and I think I can say that "pornography" was the furthest thing from our minds when we were writing them. This is a subject that has come up a couple of times in development discussions; "Are we writing porn or eroticism?"

Really, weather you class the game as "Hentai" or not is really up to you. Some people may find the pornography-free Act 1 erotic. Does that make it "Adult Content"? I don't think so.

We are proving an option to skip the scenes that involve actual sexual content, but after reading all of the drafts, I would advise against it.

Okay I've started rambling around the place, but my main point is that there is no need to worry. I would almost say that the Adult content is comprable to what you would experience by watching your average movie. Then again I do have the benefit of foresight; unfortunately you'll have to wait a little while before you can make up your own mind...heh...
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Re: All ages version?

Post by Peorth » Fri May 01, 2009 7:52 am

cpl_crud wrote:Okay, I know that I obviously have a little more experience with the script that you guys, so forgive me for "jumping ahead" as it were. I'll try not to spoil too much.

Part of the original "specification" for this game, all the way back to RAITA's omake page, was that it was going ot be a Renai game (In other words, a dating sim). For us, that has been a much of a part of the game as the girls.

That may not seem like the best excuse, but please let me finish.

Sex is a pretty natural part of life, and it doesn't need to be pornographic. Many novels feature sex scenes but aren't classed as "Adult" or "pornographic".
I like to think that Katawa Shoujo's sex scenes are written in the same vein. They are a natural part of the story, and I think I can say that "pornography" was the furthest thing from our minds when we were writing them. This is a subject that has come up a couple of times in development discussions; "Are we writing porn or eroticism?"

Really, weather you class the game as "Hentai" or not is really up to you. Some people may find the pornography-free Act 1 erotic. Does that make it "Adult Content"? I don't think so.

We are proving an option to skip the scenes that involve actual sexual content, but after reading all of the drafts, I would advise against it.

Okay I've started rambling around the place, but my main point is that there is no need to worry. I would almost say that the Adult content is comprable to what you would experience by watching your average movie. Then again I do have the benefit of foresight; unfortunately you'll have to wait a little while before you can make up your own mind...heh...
Cocktease. :P
Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.

Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.

---We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.

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Re: All ages version?

Post by cpl_crud » Fri May 01, 2009 7:58 am

There is a lot more that I want to say, but to avoid ruining anyone's experience, I'll refrain.

If you really want to know my opioins bug me on the IRC channel when I'm around.
My Novel - Now available The Zemlya Conspiracy
Blog: http://cplcrud.WordPress.com

------
<Suriko> Crud would be patting Hanako's head
<Suriko> In a non-creepy fatherly way
<NicolArmarfi> crud is trying to dress hanako up like miku and attempting to get her to pose for him in headphones and he burns money

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Re: All ages version?

Post by Warwick » Fri May 01, 2009 8:31 am

cpl_crud wrote:I would almost say that the Adult content is comprable to what you would experience by watching your average movie. Then again I do have the benefit of foresight; unfortunately you'll have to wait a little while before you can make up your own mind...heh...
Considering some of the prototype sex scenes written by official writers on the omake board, this strikes me as surprising.

Cocktease :P
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Re: All ages version?

Post by Peorth » Fri May 01, 2009 8:55 am

cpl_crud wrote:There is a lot more that I want to say, but to avoid ruining anyone's experience, I'll refrain.

If you really want to know my opioins bug me on the IRC channel when I'm around.
*shrug*
I'm just givin' ya shit, curd :)
Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.

Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.

---We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.

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Re: All ages version?

Post by BcDed » Fri May 01, 2009 4:06 pm

Hello I haven't played all the way through as I tend to dwell on my options and the situations to fully understand the implications of my actions so there may be something I don't know having not yet played through a path.

Here's the deal what I read through I thought it was extremely fantastic and meaningful writing. I saw this on sankaku complex and thought I would check it out just because it sounds like it would be humorous in a very politically incorrect way. What I found was that the game was beautifully made especially in story and character development aspects. After dwelling on it for some time I thought that throwing in sex scenes at all would feel out of place and awkward given how real the characters are. I thought this for a while until I realized that since the people writing the sex scenes are the same people that wrote the non-sex scenes(great work by the way) maybe they if anyone can find ways to do it tactfully and make it relevant.
Of course in my mind the perfect ending would be that the story would come full circle this time with a different outcome. I'm pretty sure the most tragically beautiful scene they could make would be one with the girls attending the main characters funeral.
Last edited by BcDed on Sat May 02, 2009 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All ages version?

Post by Axeman » Sat May 02, 2009 11:28 am

I'd still play it, H or non-H :D
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Re: All ages version?

Post by GVman » Sun May 03, 2009 12:22 am

cpl_crud wrote:Okay, I know that I obviously have a little more experience with the script that you guys, so forgive me for "jumping ahead" as it were. I'll try not to spoil too much.

Part of the original "specification" for this game, all the way back to RAITA's omake page, was that it was going ot be a Renai game (In other words, a dating sim). For us, that has been a much of a part of the game as the girls.

That may not seem like the best excuse, but please let me finish.

Sex is a pretty natural part of life, and it doesn't need to be pornographic. Many novels feature sex scenes but aren't classed as "Adult" or "pornographic".
I like to think that Katawa Shoujo's sex scenes are written in the same vein. They are a natural part of the story, and I think I can say that "pornography" was the furthest thing from our minds when we were writing them. This is a subject that has come up a couple of times in development discussions; "Are we writing porn or eroticism?"

Really, weather you class the game as "Hentai" or not is really up to you. Some people may find the pornography-free Act 1 erotic. Does that make it "Adult Content"? I don't think so.

We are proving an option to skip the scenes that involve actual sexual content, but after reading all of the drafts, I would advise against it.

Okay I've started rambling around the place, but my main point is that there is no need to worry. I would almost say that the Adult content is comprable to what you would experience by watching your average movie. Then again I do have the benefit of foresight; unfortunately you'll have to wait a little while before you can make up your own mind...heh...
If so, then I have no problem whatsoever with the adult scenes.

qgpr

Re: All ages version?

Post by qgpr » Mon May 04, 2009 12:42 am

My 4chan fan friend kept talking about this game, I dont play date sims but I can imagine how all of them are Hentai. I dont mind if you do a Hentai no matter how explicit with good writing, that would fulfill the original goal of your project. But if at the same time, or later, you offered a non H version that also had good writing I'd probably go with that.

From my play of the demo it felt like reading an interesting book that tries an original setting -with graphics. It is way off the "H path" but this could fit a story that children could be exposed to (or something you can talk about with anybody in real life without feeling awkward :P)..., hell, you could strip romance altogether and only have a group of friends and their solutions to their disabilities and it would work. Of course that means the writers would have to write two stories, with similarities, but different. At least you could compare the reception of both versions and learn from the results.

Of course a simple switch on the program wouldn't do for youngsters and moral fags, although it's a cheap solution.

About those talking about selling this, remember that Microsoft would think twice about allowing this (even a kid's version) if there's a freely available hentai by the same company under the same name free on the internet. Maybe I'm wrong. Besides that the story would have to be really good for it to sell, but it seems you can cover that.

If any wording is wrong you still get my point I hope, not a native english speaker.

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Re: All ages version?

Post by Peorth » Mon May 04, 2009 12:57 am

qgpr wrote:
About those talking about selling this, remember that Microsoft would think twice about allowing this (even a kid's version) if there's a freely available hentai by the same company under the same name free on the internet. Maybe I'm wrong. Besides that the story would have to be really good for it to sell, but it seems you can cover that.

If any wording is wrong you still get my point I hope, not a native english speaker.
'Microsoft would think twice about allowing this'
What the hell do they even have to do with this?
Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.

Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.

---We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.

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