Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoilers]

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off...

Post by Brodoin » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:02 am

Paddy wrote:Actually, knowing myself, I would probably stand there for a good five minutes or more like a dolt, not knowing what to do. Sex is obviously out of play. And while it's no sin to hug a topless girl, I am still rather conservative at heart.

Even if I did catch the hint... no matter how much I would want it, I could not go through with it. I would have to confront her. I would have to ask hard questions that may very well alienate her from me. It's a chance I'd have to take, and hope she trusts me enough that she would understand.

If, by that point, I'd gotten to know her better, or feel more attached to her, though, I don't know what I'd do.

But I would like to think I would want to be her knight in shining armour - or at least her comrade in arms. She really is too cute and not annoying enough for me to feel she is a burden. If I had felt that way about her, I'm not sure I would have pursued much of a relationship with her to begin with. :?

The emphasis should never be on protecting Hanako. It should be that she is a person of inherent human value, and of even more value to me as a friend and a love.
I think I'd react the same way. I admit that I might get a little lustful, but I don't think I could bring myself to do anything.

I believe that Hanako would be happier in her own route. I know in Lilly's she becomes more open, but then I feel it's somewhat forced. It's either that, or become a third wheel. I think it is safe to assume that both Hanako and Lilly end up happy in both their routes. But I still think it is harder for Hanako in Lilly's because she doesn't have the total support of Lilly or Hisao, compared to Hisao's total support in her own route. My point is in her own route, Hanako was willing to kiss Hisao not only in public in front of others with little hesitation, but with her scars facing the people around them, while in Lilly's route the similar actions may take much longer for her to be willing to do.

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off...

Post by Guest Poster » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:34 pm

Agreed. I'd say it also only managed to bamboozle Hisao all the more. (It bamboozled me for sure.) Quite the opposite of clearly explaining her feelings for Hisao, her attempt only made me wonder what in the Dickens she was trying to do (especially when she runs away from you after class the next day).
I don't think Hanako planned ahead that far. She wanted Hisao to see her as a woman, rather than as a protegée, but I doubt she had any clear ideas of what to do afterwards. She was probably surprised that instead of them being closer the morning after, things just became unbearingly uncomfortable. The running away part, btw, was also partially due to Shizune and Misha approaching for some questioning. Obviously Hanako was not up for THOSE two digging into the whole affair.
Hanako really is in some ways just a little child trying to reach up to her father's arms for a hug. She does need to be protected.
That statement makes it sound as though you missed a rather important part of Hanako's issues. A core part of Hanako's issues is the deep-seated belief she's useless. If you take such a person under your wing and try to protect her from the big bad world, you're only going to validate that belief and make her feel worse about herself, no matter how often you stress that you love her. That's the mistake Lilly made in her friendship with Hanako. The most important part of the park scene (beyond the two sharing their own feelings about their bond) was not Hisao's confession of love, but his promise of mutual support from both sides. That was the part that caused the wall between Hanako and Hisao to shatter for real.
Trying to get Hisao to have sex was taking it too far. It doesn't make her evil by any means, but I damn well know something is wrong when she barely opens up to me one minute, then the next she's telling me her life story and then trying to get me to make love to her.

I'm not exaclty sure what I would have done in that situation, but I think I would have just come out and asked her, because I think I would have know by then something was fishy. Something was up. It would not take a night of uncomfortable sex and day of bewilderment to realise sex really was not what she wanted.
The thing is, even if he knew something was wrong, when Hanako stripped down in front of him, Hisao didn't really get the time to figure out what exactly was wrong. I think he may have realized rejecting Hanako's advances or making the situation even more uncomfortable by trying to start a conversation might be a bad idea, so he simply went through the motions without trying to make sense of things then and there.

There was no way Hisao would have been able to figure out Hanako's real motivations then and there...because he had no way of knowing how extremely aware Hanako was of his white knighting thoughts about her.
And so it was. She simply wanted to be loved. And needed. You don't need sex for that.
And yet, it was their misguided night of (mostly physical) intimacy that was the key to them opening up to each other for real and none of this could have been achieved by a mere talk.

Neither Hanako nor Hisao had many people in Yamaku they were close to, particularly people they could relate to, so for the most part they preferred the "safe" path of casual friendship over the risk of driving the other away by trying to take steps to make their friendship more than what it was. The morning after, in class, Hisao even states he'd be happy to return to the way things were before, but that was impossible now.

The fact they slept together burned bridges that, I think, needed to be burned in order for their relationship to move forward. They couldn't go back to the safe casual friendship from before. Either they'd put all their cards on the table and open up in an attempt to salvage their relationship or they'd drift apart and things would remain too awkward to even maintain the friendship. Those were the only two options now...the options of holding back or dropping out half-way were gone. The things said in the park scene were excrutiatingly uncomfortable for both, but they needed to be said to break down the walls between them. Without the tryst from the night before, they might have frozen up or dropped the subject half-way through if things became too uncomfortable, but exactly because they knew they already burned their bridges, they were able to stick through the painful part and come out of the whole thing as a couple.
I don't know what exactly I'd do. Perhaps I would be amazed. Hug her. Tell her I love her. that it doesn't matter to me whether we have sex or not - that I love her dearly and don't want to lose her, or hurt her.
Keep in mind that during that scene, this wasn't what Hisao was feeling. He didn't tell her he loved her at that point because he wasn't really sure what his feelings for her were. Sure, he felt some attraction, but that's different from love. He never made a move on her and never gave the notion of an actual relationship with Hanako any serious thought. He didn't even think it was ever going to happen. After their night together, Hisao comes to the conclusion he WOULD like to start going out with Hanako and have a relationship with her, but that's after he spent most of the day sorting out his feelings. At the time Hanako was getting naked in front of him, Hisao couldn't honestly tell her he loved her, because he wasn't sure of his feelings towards her. It was their experience together that pushed him to start thinking about that in the first place.

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off...

Post by Paddy » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:32 pm

You've really have to get an account. ;)
Guest Poster wrote:
Agreed. I'd say it also only managed to bamboozle Hisao all the more. (It bamboozled me for sure.) Quite the opposite of clearly explaining her feelings for Hisao, her attempt only made me wonder what in the Dickens she was trying to do (especially when she runs away from you after class the next day).
I don't think Hanako planned ahead that far. She wanted Hisao to see her as a woman,
I agree that Hanako was probably not, er, madly in love with Hisao. I could have worded that better.
I don't think she necessarily wanted a romantic relationship. She thought Hisao wanted one. There is a difference there.
But I think it safe to say she merely wanted a friendship. Not to be pitied, but to be loved as a person, even if she was not loved as a better half. I think... that would have been enough for her.
Hanako really is in some ways just a little child trying to reach up to her father's arms for a hug. She does need to be protected.
That statement makes it sound as though you missed a rather important part of Hanako's issues. A core part of Hanako's issues is the deep-seated belief she's useless. If you take such a person under your wing and try to protect her from the big bad world, you're only going to validate that belief and make her feel worse about herself, no matter how often you stress that you love her. That's the mistake Lilly made in her friendship with Hanako. The most important part of the park scene (beyond the two sharing their own feelings about their bond) was not Hisao's confession of love, but his promise of mutual support from both sides. That was the part that caused the wall between Hanako and Hisao to shatter for real.
But you cannot love a useless thing.

Ultimately it comes down to this: Hanako wishes to be loved - not simply protected. She wishes to have meaning and value - to herself, to the people she loves. And I guess... she thought she could "trade" for it. Like she thought she needed to "trade" when she got information about his life. Give her self in exchange for a sense of worth - love - from Hisao.

That, of course, is not how love works. But she'd hardly be the first one to fall into that trap, now would she? There are many insecure girls who think that giving their boyfriends their bodies will make them love them, and protect themselves from being hurt. Cos he's supposed to love you when you have sex, right?

The sex may have cause enough alarm to wake them up and ask them "Are you doing this, or aren't you?!". And that might seem a good thing. But it was wholly unnecessary. What was needed you acknowledge yourself: they needed to bear not only their scars, but their HEARTS to each other. That's what they did in the park, and that's the only thing Hanako or Hisao needed to do. That is the only thing that broke the walls. The sex was, at best, only a catalyst to an already uncomfortable relationship that needed sorting out.

Hisao did not need to protect her from her feelings or baby her. He needed to get her to spit out what she'd been holding in secret.
And so it was. She simply wanted to be loved. And needed. You don't need sex for that.
And yet, it was their misguided night of (mostly physical) intimacy that was the key to them opening up to each other for real and none of this could have been achieved by a mere talk.[/quote]

There is mere talk. Then there is laying your emotional guts out for your beloved to see. The latter is what they did in the park, and that's ultimately what sealed everything. The sex was an action that was no better than the "mere talk" they'd been having up to that point.

Telling people your history is a good start. And sex certainly is something spouses do out of love. But sex DOES NOT equal love. It is no replacement for honesty, self-sacrifice, selflessness, or letting down your guard so it can all ooze out.

As many protections as Hisao gave Hanako, Hanako put up many of her own, even until the very end, because it was not until the very end that she admitted what exactly she wanted and why she was doing all this.

What did Hisao say in the very end? "Hanako, if you'd just told me..."
The fact they slept together burned bridges that, I think, needed to be burned in order for their relationship to move forward. They couldn't go back to the safe casual friendship from before. Either they'd put all their cards on the table and open up in an attempt to salvage their relationship or they'd drift apart and things would remain too awkward to even maintain the friendship.
This might be so. That did not mean they needed to go through with it. Simply asking Hisao to sleep with her would have been an awkward enough event to cause them to choose to "do or die", never mind actually going through with it.

She could also have invited him to go steady. Or he could have. She could have kissed him, or French kissed him. Wrote an ode to him or bought him something that expressed just how she felt about him. And he could have done those same things, too (if he had known how they'd actually related to each other). He had wanted to consider her as more than a friend, even before they had sex.

There's a thousand ways to show a man (or a woman) that you want something more, even if it is simply to be worth something in that person's eyes, without resorting to sex. One of the best and most clear ways, is simply telling them so.

I am not questioning that they needed to get out of their rut. I am questioning the methods by which this leaving of the rut came about. I saw Hanako offer to target an ICBM on something that really only needed to be trapped and released in the wild. I don't question it needed to be incapacitated, but using the ICBM to kill it. You follow?

Keep in mind that during that scene, this wasn't what Hisao was feeling.


I stick by what I said in that post, but I'll admit it does have a few weaknesses. See my next post and tell me what you think.
After their night together, Hisao comes to the conclusion he WOULD like to start going out with Hanako and have a relationship with her, but that's after he spent most of the day sorting out his feelings.
He has thought this BEFORE the night they spent together. He had thought to himself that he liked her, maybe even loved her. But he was afraid to pursue a relationship because of how fragile he thought she was. Perhaps the sex was a catalyst to thinking otherwise. Perhaps approaching him in any kind of way would have been such a catalyst.

But none of it would have been hitting the mark. Hanako's and Hisao's finally coming out and bearing all their emotions to each other? THAT was hitting the mark.

Pleasure talking with you again, Guest Poster.
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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off...

Post by Oddball » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:52 pm

This might be so. That did not mean they needed to go through with it. Simply asking Hisao to sleep with her would have been an awkward enough event to cause them to choose to "do or die", never mind actually going through with it.
Even after they DID have sex, Hanako still thought that Hisao couldn't think of her that way. Any form of rejection would likely have just reinforced the view that she wasn't a person that people could be sexually or romantically involved with. Most likely if Hisao had said no, she would have just viewed any explanation as to why as just another attempt at him protecting her.
She could also have invited him to go steady. Or he could have. She could have kissed him, or French kissed him. Wrote an ode to him or bought him something that expressed just how she felt about him. And he could have done those same things, too (if he had known how they'd actually related to each other). He had wanted to consider her as more than a friend, even before they had sex.

There's a thousand ways to show a man (or a woman) that you want something more, even if it is simply to be worth something in that person's eyes, without resorting to sex. One of the best and most clear ways, is simply telling them so.
As you may have noticed, expressing herself isn't exactly Hanako's strong suite. Likewise Hisao may have been interested in her, but he also said that even if he was, he didn't think she was ready for it. The last thing Hanako was going to do was come out and say "I need you." She didn't want to need anybody, and she certainly didn't want other people to know that she needed them.

Even if they had just started dating, there would still be the doubt in each other's eyes. How much of it is general emotion and feelings and how much of it is just one person trying to make the other feel good.
I am not questioning that they needed to get out of their rut. I am questioning the methods by which this leaving of the rut came about. I saw Hanako offer to target an ICBM on something that really only needed to be trapped and released in the wild. I don't question it needed to be incapacitated, but using the ICBM to kill it. You follow?
I follow but I don't agree. This is a case where two things where broken and the only reason they were still standing is because they had leaned up against each other. They had to be allowed to collapse before they could be rebuilt into something stable.
Last edited by Oddball on Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off...

Post by Alexbond45 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:55 pm

lol you got a little fail Italic there sah/i]
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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off...

Post by Oddball » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:17 am

Alexbond45 wrote:lol you got a little fail Italic there sah/i]

I was testing you to make sure you were paying attention.
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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off...

Post by Paddy » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:41 am

The last thing Hanako was going to do was come out and say "I need you." She didn't want to need anybody, and she certainly didn't want other people to know that she needed them.
Good point.
I suppose it was only natural (of her) that she would "speak" with her body before speaking with her lips.

I still wouldn't do it (had I the choice). To do so would, from where I stand, be akin to being offered an opportunity to join the Peace Corps - thanks, and I love the work you do, but I'm not sure I'm ready for that kind of commitment.

Then again, were I in Hisao's place from the beginning, I would have never wanted a sexual relationship to begin with. At least, I would not hope, dream, or make a goal of such a thing only over the course of a single year, never mind a single month. They call it "going all the way" for a reason - cos it's not just a BIG thing you can do for your girl. It's THE big thing you can do for her. There is nothing bigger. Making love should lead to not just acceptance, but commitment. Utter and undying commitment.

And I'm not sure at that stage of the game I could give Hanako such a thing, even though I might later.
I am not questioning that they needed to get out of their rut. I am questioning the methods by which this leaving of the rut came about. I saw Hanako offer to target an ICBM on something that really only needed to be trapped and released in the wild. I don't question it needed to be incapacitated, but using the ICBM to kill it. You follow?
I follow but I don't agree. This is a case where two things where broken and the only reason they were still standing is because they had leaned up against each other. They had to be allowed to collapse before they could be rebuilt into something stable.
[/quote]

Hmm...

When you put it this way, it reminds me of all of the imperfect nature of the people in the Bible - Old and New Testaments. Not one of the Kings, Judges, or other leaders did not have some kind of flaw in them - and all of these flaws God exploited, to the advantage and betterment of these kings, and to Israel's (and later the world's) advantage. Perhaps a more understandable example would be when an addict reaches rock bottom. I've always wondered: does he have to hit the bottom in order to spring back up?

I still really do NOT think sex is the answer to the question: "how do you strengthen a crippled heart?". But when you put it the way you do, it seems kinda like that night, while not a good thing, may have been the leverage they both needed to get out of their rut.

I'm sure it would have come to a head in some less troubling eventually. But this explanation... helps me to make some peace with the way things went.

When I think about this game, I suppose I'm not really at peace with any of the circumstances the sex takes place in, though Hisao really treats Emi the way a husband ought, and though he treats Lilly the way a husband ought, and though he treats Shizune, and Hanako, and I don't doubt Rin, the way a husband ought. Hisao seems like the type of guy who would do anything, fight and die, wade through a mountain of turtle pie, drink from a glass and spit in yer eye, for the girl he builds his relationships with.

But... I don't know. I really don't know.

Putting the banns on it, and a wedding people could observe and know about, would give me more comfort. (Besides, I think they'd all look splendid in wedding dresses, and Hisao in a suit, don't you?)

My ramblings aside, thanks for the reply. It helps a bit.
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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off...

Post by U.T. Raptor » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:27 am

Joeshmoelb wrote:The easiest thing to miss in this comparison, is the length of the story. The good ending for Hanako is actually the shortest of all the paths, where as the Lilly path is the longest of them all. So its not as though she is "Better Off", its more like there was more time shown in her development.
I think Shizune's is the longest, even counting Lilly's epilogue since iirc that implies they still haven't graduated yet and that's the point where Shizune's ends.

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Eraser35 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:06 am

@Paddy someone needs to come up with wedding dress designs now

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by fabio.salvador » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:17 pm

So, here´s what I think: the scenario is this... Hanako´s in the room with Hisao, and she takes her clothes off. In the twisted mind of the person who wrote Hanako´s route, we have two ways to go ahead:

A) Hisao has sex with her, a decision which ruins her already damaged mind.
B) He doesn´t have sex with her, so they fall in love.

Now, let me say to you what a no-bullshit mind would presume:

A) Hisao has sex with her. She feels herself a desirable woman, thus strenghtening her self-steem. They fall in love.
B) Hisao declines to have sex with her. No matter what he says to her, what excuses he gives, she´s gonna think "oh shit, I showed him my scarred body and he ran away, I must be really horrible!", thus destroying her already weak self-steem.

Am I wrong?
If I were free to choose, whenever any character did anything to hurt Hanako, I would be able to call that person outdoors and the game screen would change to Street-Fighter-esque mode.

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Logan812 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:28 pm

fabio.salvador wrote:So, here´s what I think: the scenario is this... Hanako´s in the room with Hisao, and she takes her clothes off. In the twisted mind of the person who wrote Hanako´s route, we have two ways to go ahead:

A) Hisao has sex with her, a decision which ruins her already damaged mind.
B) He doesn´t have sex with her, so they fall in love.

Now, let me say to you what a no-bullshit mind would presume:

A) Hisao has sex with her. She feels herself a desirable woman, thus strenghtening her self-steem. They fall in love.
B) Hisao declines to have sex with her. No matter what he says to her, what excuses he gives, she´s gonna think "oh shit, I showed him my scarred body and he ran away, I must be really horrible!", thus destroying her already weak self-steem.

Am I wrong?
Or scenario C: Hisao confesses that Hanako is beautiful no matter what she or anyone else thinks and then he (at least attempts to) share a passionate kiss. Things can escalate from there.

Or perhaps I've been watching too many movies lol
Favorite Routes in Order: Lilly > Hanako > Rin > Emi > Shizune
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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by encrypted12345 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:41 pm

fabio.salvador wrote: Now, let me say to you what a no-bullshit mind would presume:

A) Hisao has sex with her. She feels herself a desirable woman, thus strenghtening her self-steem. They fall in love.
B) Hisao declines to have sex with her. No matter what he says to her, what excuses he gives, she´s gonna think "oh shit, I showed him my scarred body and he ran away, I must be really horrible!", thus destroying her already weak self-steem.

Am I wrong?
Wait... Hold on!

You watched way too much hentai if you believe that.

1. Relationships that rely on sex are highly unstable. It's not an uncommon tactic for girls to let a guy have sex with them for the sole purpose of making sure that they somehow bind the guy to them. That strategy is bullshit and only delays the inevitable at best. There is a reason why the divorce rate is as high as it is.

2. Hanako isn't that weak. If Hisao gives a mature excuse, she'll take it. If Hisao honestly said that he loved her, she would be happy. The problem wasn't that he didn't think that Hanako was attractive, the problem was that Hisao was really wishy-washy and unsure if he loved Hanako. Sex with her forced Hisao to make up his mind.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure that the author never implied that they would have fallen in love with out the sex. It was undeniably a necessary catalyst. However, it was Hisao that needed the sex, not really Hanako.

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Megumeru » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:53 pm

fabio.salvador wrote:B) Hisao declines to have sex with her. No matter what he says to her, what excuses he gives, she´s gonna think "oh shit, I showed him my scarred body and he ran away, I must be really horrible!", thus destroying her already weak self-steem.
If you think Hanako is that weak, then you might have managed to avoid stepping on 'that' landmine in her route called the 'bad ending'. Hanako is strong--way stronger than what most people actually think. She's just a little timid and--considering both her and Lilly's route--I can confidently say that she already had feelings for Hisao the moment he starts spending his time with her and Lilly (it's just that at Lilly's route she backs off instead of pursuing any further and develop a very-damaging love triangle--now that I think about it, someone should write that 'what if' scenario).

She's not as mentally fragile and 'weak' as Kotonoha Katsura from School Days, but as timid as she is. To summarize, she's a lioness with a timid exterior--you step on the wrong foot, and she'll roar at you and crush you.
encrypted12345 wrote: 1. Relationships that rely on sex are highly unstable. It's not an uncommon tactic for girls to let a guy have sex with them for the sole purpose of making sure that they somehow bind the guy to them. That strategy is bullshit and only delays the inevitable at best. There is a reason why the divorce rate is as high as it is.
Oh, like the girl Hisao spent with in the tool shed with lemon-scented lube. True, true...


...I'll stick with the Student Council President now
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SHII-HAEL!
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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Guest Poster » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:00 pm

I agree that Hanako was probably not, er, madly in love with Hisao. I could have worded that better.
That's not what I said, actually. Hanako was in love with Hisao, no doubt about that, and has been for quite a while. With her, it's difficult to figure out, but I wouldn't have been surprised if she developed a crush on him around the time she first thanked him for hanging out with her in Act 1.

I don't think she necessarily wanted a romantic relationship. She thought Hisao wanted one. There is a difference there.
But I think it safe to say she merely wanted a friendship. Not to be pitied, but to be loved as a person, even if she was not loved as a better half. I think... that would have been enough for her.
Hanako thought Hisao was looking for a girlfriend and she failed his aptitude test for being a burden to him. So she seduced him in an attempt to show him that she wasn't a child and that she was capable of...being with a man as much as any other girl.

Make no mistake, Hanako wanted more than just a friendship with Hisao. Just before kissing him on the lips, Hanako states she's wanted to do this for a very long time. She wouldn't have said that if she didn't desire a romantic relationship with him. You don't kiss mere friends on the lips.
Ultimately it comes down to this: Hanako wishes to be loved - not simply protected. She wishes to have meaning and value - to herself, to the people she loves. And I guess... she thought she could "trade" for it. Like she thought she needed to "trade" when she got information about his life. Give her self in exchange for a sense of worth - love - from Hisao.

That, of course, is not how love works. But she'd hardly be the first one to fall into that trap, now would she? There are many insecure girls who think that giving their boyfriends their bodies will make them love them, and protect themselves from being hurt. Cos he's supposed to love you when you have sex, right?
The trading thing is indeed very much how Hanako sees human relationships. It's a recurring dynamic in the developing bond between her and Hisao. After Hanako got scarred by the fire, the children she thought were here friends became her bullies. Because of this, Hanako finds it nearly impossible to believe people would treasure her merely for "being her". So instead, she judges her perceived value to people by the amount of "favors" she can return in kind. It allows her to measure her value by a non-abstract measuring stick.

This is the main reason why Hanako found her place relatively quickly in the newspaper club in Lilly's route...her classmates gave her stuff to do that she was good at and because she got to make herself useful, her self-esteem improved.

This is also the reason why she secretly felt insecure about her relationship with Lilly. Hanako loved Lilly, no doubt about that, but the relationship was unbalanced and Hanako knew this. Hanako relied on Lilly a lot as an emotional crutch. But Lilly wouldn't rely on Hanako for emotional support whenever she was troubled. (we learn in Lilly's route that Lilly doesn't like to share her burdens with others) This is a shame because if she had, their friendship would have been a lot deeper and Hanako would have opened up to Lilly more.

However, and I can't stress that enough, the sex was NOT part of one of Hanako's typical "trading" actions. She didn't sleep with him in return for love. She slept with him in return for an opportunity to win his love.
The sex may have cause enough alarm to wake them up and ask them "Are you doing this, or aren't you?!". And that might seem a good thing. But it was wholly unnecessary. What was needed you acknowledge yourself: they needed to bear not only their scars, but their HEARTS to each other. That's what they did in the park, and that's the only thing Hanako or Hisao needed to do. That is the only thing that broke the walls. The sex was, at best, only a catalyst to an already uncomfortable relationship that needed sorting out.


Hisao did not need to protect her from her feelings or baby her. He needed to get her to spit out what she'd been holding in secret.

Thing is, bearing their hearts was close to impossible for both. Even in the last act, neither understood the other very well. If Hanako and Hisao had been able to open up to each other just like that without some external motivation, a lot of the struggles in the arc wouldn't have taken place, Hisao and Hanako would have started going out as early as Act 3 and indeed, the awkward sex would have been unnecessary. But they couldn't. That's why the sex wasn't unnecessary...it created a necessary crisis in their friendship that could have ended the friendship unless they came clean to one another and made a fresh start. Without the threat of their friendship ending, I doubt Hanako would have been able to admit her lack of trust in Hisao and Lilly, nor do I think Hisao would have admitted to Hanako he indeed used to see her as a fragile child who had to be protected.
This might be so. That did not mean they needed to go through with it. Simply asking Hisao to sleep with her would have been an awkward enough event to cause them to choose to "do or die", never mind actually going through with it.
But by accepting her attempt to seduce him, it became a shared slip-up instead of just an error in Hanako's judgement. That sense of equality was important. It wasn't just Hanako who needed to spit things out, the same was true for Hisao. Both of them sharing responsibility for what happened was an important factor in their mutual venting session.
She could also have invited him to go steady. Or he could have.
Except that Hanako figured Hisao saw her too much as a child to protect to view her as a viable romantic partner. And Hisao figured Hanako was too fragile to accept a relationship.
Wrote an ode
I realize this is just an example, but we're talking about a girl here who hardly ever speaks in more than short single sentences.
or bought him something that expressed just how she felt about him. And he could have done those same things, too
It's actually pretty difficult to get out of the friend zone by simply buying gifts. Even "I love you" can be interpreted in many different ways and not the specific way that Hanako desired.
(if he had known how they'd actually related to each other).
But he didn't.
He had wanted to consider her as more than a friend, even before they had sex.
That was unfortunately before she had that breakdown in class at which point he decided that a romantic interest was not what she needed right now.
There's a thousand ways to show a man (or a woman) that you want something more, even if it is simply to be worth something in that person's eyes, without resorting to sex. One of the best and most clear ways, is simply telling them so.
I understand as much, but just about every one of those ways involved actually opening up which neither was really prepared to do until the situation had them at gunpoint. Which was the main problem. If "simply telling them so" was really that easy, then yes, the sex would have been unnecessary.
He has thought this BEFORE the night they spent together. He had thought to himself that he liked her, maybe even loved her. But he was afraid to pursue a relationship because of how fragile he thought she was. Perhaps the sex was a catalyst to thinking otherwise. Perhaps approaching him in any kind of way would have been such a catalyst.
Perhaps. Then again, there were multiple issues. One was Hisao's view of Hanako as a broken and fragile person. The other was Hanako's lack of trust in Hisao's willingness to stick around her and lack of believe that Hisao needed her in some way. Ultimately, Hanako's drastic action adressed one directly and by creating a crisis in their friendship, forced the adressing of the second one. I'm not sure if many other methods would have tended to both as effectively. A less drastic approach may not have resulted in the pressure that Hanako needed to spit some of the things out that she did in the park.
But none of it would have been hitting the mark. Hanako's and Hisao's finally coming out and bearing all their emotions to each other? THAT was hitting the mark.
Ultimately, this is what solved things for real. Or rather, pointed them both in the right direction to start the process of getting to know each other for real.
Pleasure talking with you again, Guest Poster.
The pleasure was all mine. I have a tendency to quote-pick posts, which sometimes comes across as a bit argumentative, but don't let that bother you. We actually agree on a lot, we're not going to agree on everything, but I can see we can respectfully disagree on the points of view we don't share.

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Paddy » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:19 pm

fabio.salvador wrote:So, here´s what I think: the scenario is this... Hanako´s in the room with Hisao, and she takes her clothes off. In the twisted mind of the person who wrote Hanako´s route, we have two ways to go ahead:

A) Hisao has sex with her, a decision which ruins her already damaged mind.
B) He doesn´t have sex with her, so they fall in love.

Now, let me say to you what a no-bullshit mind would presume:

A) Hisao has sex with her. She feels herself a desirable woman, thus strenghtening her self-steem. They fall in love.
B) Hisao declines to have sex with her. No matter what he says to her, what excuses he gives, she´s gonna think "oh shit, I showed him my scarred body and he ran away, I must be really horrible!", thus destroying her already weak self-steem.

Am I wrong?
You didn't play through Hanako's route, did you? You also appear to have a chip the size of Venezuela on your shoulder, as well as a very shallow concept of emotions and the human mind.

It's not about the sex. It's about being loved, and feeling you are worth something. Hanako felt she had neither of these things - she thought she was neither loved nor valuable. So she tried to make herself valuable.

But the thing is, a person's value has nothing to do with what you can do. It has to do with what you are - another person, like everyone else, made in the image and likeness of God. You are like everyone else, yet you are wonderfully and fearfully made. That's a pretty wonderful thing to be.

Hisao helped her to realise how wonderful she was to him, and thereby to herself. He gave her a sense of value that up until then she'd never had. The sex had nothing to do with that, though.
Anyways, I'm pretty sure that the author never implied that they would have fallen in love with out the sex. It was undeniably a necessary catalyst. However, it was Hisao that needed the sex, not really Hanako.
This might be the best way I've heard it put yet.

Not so much the sex itself, but the effects of the sex. Hanako was already trying to reach out to Hisao, we know that. Hisao just had to figure out what exactly she meant to say.

Also, @ encrypted's and Logan's posts in general:

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You guys are a Godsend.
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