Lilly twist (spoilers)

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CHIM-0sum
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Lilly twist (spoilers)

Post by CHIM-0sum » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:41 pm

Lilly's route as an overall experience is amazing, but when I look at it objectively, I think that the major twist is not very well executed at all.

It's kinda like this (I'm exaggerating and simplifying it, I know): I love you Hisao be with me forever, oh wait my parents who I've seen one time in the last 6 years want me to come back to Scotland. Did I mention that they sent me to live at Yamaku so I wouldn't negatively impact their career since I'm blind? Oh, also, they're rich, so even though they're busy they could have visited me at any time, and still can. Bye forever.


I feel like they kinda dropped the ball with this. It doesn't make sense. I think that if I thought about it for a while I could come up with a better, equally sad/severe twist. If anyone can explain to me why it does make sense, that would be great.

harlequin
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Re: Lilly twist (spoilers)

Post by harlequin » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:47 pm

Lilly's just that sort of person to not hold it against them, albeit niavely. Akira makes it obvious what she thinks of her parents and how they've treated Lilly but Lilly wouldn't exactly be the same person if she saw things the same way.

Besides what, you've known her a few months? Been in a relationship for even less time? had sex 3 times? Hardly the biggest reason to let your sister go who you've lived with for most of your life.

Making the bad choice the logical one also makes the good ending more powerful. Besides, it is just a story and it has to function as one.

yuastnav
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Re: Lilly twist (spoilers)

Post by yuastnav » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:49 pm

In my opinion you are simplifying this a bit too much.

See, her parents are rich but that comes at a price - they probably both work a lot and just do not have that much time although it is indeed a little bit strange that they did not visit her even once. The reason why Lilly also would want to move back is because not only does she want to be with her parents more but also because Akira is also going back and that is one of the things that can hit her the hardest. When she came back from Scotland (she probably knew that her parents summoned her, I am not sure) she missed Hisao very much and so her feelings are very much in turmoil at this point - on one hand she thinks about going back and on the other hand she wants to care for Hisao and Hanako.

I am also rather confused about what exactly it is that does not make sense for you.
"[...] it's just a ride."

CHIM-0sum
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Re: Lilly twist (spoilers)

Post by CHIM-0sum » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:51 pm

harlequin wrote:Hardly the biggest reason to let your sister go who you've lived with for most of your life.
I didn't even think about this. That makes it work. There could have been a few tweaks to the goodbye scene, but when I think about that it makes sense, since she's very close to Akira. I feel kinda stupid now. I guess I didn't think about it as much or as thoroughly as I thought I did.

harlequin
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Re: Lilly twist (spoilers)

Post by harlequin » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:55 pm

I can see why you would want to justify her staying. I'm giving it another play through so I can get the good ending for Lilly.

HeMeido
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Re: Lilly twist (spoilers)

Post by HeMeido » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:06 pm

She only leaves in the Bad End and you only get the Bad End if Hisao refuses to be honest with her and shows no consideration for Hanako. That's not exactly long-term boyfriend material...

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Mirage_GSM
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Re: Lilly twist (spoilers)

Post by Mirage_GSM » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:09 pm

I can understand Lilly wanting to go with Akira...
What Puts me off a bit is that she keeps this from Hisao completely - especially given how much the path's choices focus on Hisao being honest to Lilly.
Bit of a double-standard, really...
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

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yuastnav
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Re: Lilly twist (spoilers)

Post by yuastnav » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:17 pm

Mirage_GSM wrote:I can understand Lilly wanting to go with Akira...
What Puts me off a bit is that she keeps this from Hisao completely - especially given how much the path's choices focus on Hisao being honest to Lilly.
Bit of a double-standard, really...
Maybe she just wanted to spend the rest of her time with Hisao on piece, untainted from the knowledge on his part that she would be going away, so she could at least cherish and treasure these memories. On the other hand Hisao did catch on rather quickly about how distant she actually became - I guess she was very much confused and didn't know what to do until Hisao said that he spoke with Akira.
"[...] it's just a ride."

scoopnokes
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Re: Lilly twist (spoilers)

Post by scoopnokes » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:29 pm

yuastnav wrote:
Mirage_GSM wrote:I can understand Lilly wanting to go with Akira...
What Puts me off a bit is that she keeps this from Hisao completely - especially given how much the path's choices focus on Hisao being honest to Lilly.
Bit of a double-standard, really...
Maybe she just wanted to spend the rest of her time with Hisao on piece, untainted from the knowledge on his part that she would be going away, so she could at least cherish and treasure these memories. On the other hand Hisao did catch on rather quickly about how distant she actually became - I guess she was very much confused and didn't know what to do until Hisao said that he spoke with Akira.
In my opinion, Lilly seems the type to try and handle all the burden herself and keep everything happy for those she cares deeply about. So by shouldering all her problems to herself she would be able to keep the enjoying times she has with Hanako and Hisao well. But she also isn't the type to not help those she cares for be bothered by their troubles. She tries to help Hisao a and Hanako with their problems and not let her problems cause them to worry more than they already have to. That's why I think in the good ending after she leaves, the hospital scene is the point where she can't bottle up all her emotions and worries anymore about Hisao and lets it all come flowing out. Not only does this mean that she couldn't take it anymore, but shows that she's willing to let go of her pride and in dependency, which she has been keen to keep through the story, and let herself rely on someone else.

yuastnav
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Re: Lilly twist (spoilers)

Post by yuastnav » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:34 pm

scoopnokes wrote:
yuastnav wrote:
Mirage_GSM wrote:I can understand Lilly wanting to go with Akira...
What Puts me off a bit is that she keeps this from Hisao completely - especially given how much the path's choices focus on Hisao being honest to Lilly.
Bit of a double-standard, really...
Maybe she just wanted to spend the rest of her time with Hisao on piece, untainted from the knowledge on his part that she would be going away, so she could at least cherish and treasure these memories. On the other hand Hisao did catch on rather quickly about how distant she actually became - I guess she was very much confused and didn't know what to do until Hisao said that he spoke with Akira.
In my opinion, Lilly seems the type to try and handle all the burden herself and keep everything happy for those she cares deeply about. So by shouldering all her problems to herself she would be able to keep the enjoying times she has with Hanako and Hisao well. But she also isn't the type to not help those she cares for be bothered by their troubles. She tries to help Hisao a and Hanako with their problems and not let her problems cause them to worry more than they already have to. That's why I think in the good ending after she leaves, the hospital scene is the point where she can't bottle up all her emotions and worries anymore about Hisao and lets it all come flowing out. Not only does this mean that she couldn't take it anymore, but shows that she's willing to let go of her pride and in dependency, which she has been keen to keep through the story, and let herself rely on someone else.
Wow, this sounds actually really good! :)
It is kinda - well, difficult not to see but I think I just didn't connect the dots up until now.
I thought she was crying because she almost lost Hisao but yeah - up until that point she was bottling up here emotions and that even shined through at some points, like her outburst when Kenji tripped and they fell, and just cracked.
Very emotional scene, very good writing.
"[...] it's just a ride."

scoopnokes
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Re: Lilly twist (spoilers)

Post by scoopnokes » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:41 pm

too big of a post to quote your whole quote.
yuastnav wrote:Wow, this sounds actually really good! :)
It is kinda - well, difficult not to see but I think I just didn't connect the dots up until now.
I thought she was crying because she almost lost Hisao but yeah - up until that point she was bottling up here emotions and that even shined through at some points, like her outburst when Kenji tripped and they fell, and just cracked.
Very emotional scene, very good writing.


it is a hard concept to realize but not hard to see. Stereotyping that crying for someone you love in the hospital right after they had an accident usually leads to "I almost lost him/her". But you know, when i played her route I always thought that she wasn't letting what she really wanted to say or let her emotions out. She is conservative but also prideful and independent. So for her to cry like that made me think upon that. :D Friend me sometime

Guest

Re: Lilly twist (spoilers)

Post by Guest » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:41 am

This thread inspired me to some thoughts, that could be the start of a review:

Katawa shoujo is the result of blending a cliche structure with precise, detailed characterization.

Hisao does an airport run to obtain Lilly, but experiences a heart attack because of his condition, and Lilly changes her prideful, self-burdening, and arm's reach distance attitude due to her worry over Hisao.

(Rin path spoilers:) Rin's path became quite dark at once point, but their relationship recovers with the cliche "sex solves everything". But even that cliche is linked to Rin's character: the immediate, sensual experience that sex provides gives Hisao insight into how Rin thinks: only of the present.

The overall structure of the visual novel is a cliche: japanese high school setting, each path is a romance with a separate girl...

scoopnokes
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Re: Lilly twist (spoilers)

Post by scoopnokes » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:24 am

Guest wrote:This thread inspired me to some thoughts, that could be the start of a review:

Katawa shoujo is the result of blending a cliche structure with precise, detailed characterization.

Hisao does an airport run to obtain Lilly, but experiences a heart attack because of his condition, and Lilly changes her prideful, self-burdening, and arm's reach distance attitude due to her worry over Hisao.

(Rin path spoilers:) Rin's path became quite dark at once point, but their relationship recovers with the cliche "sex solves everything". But even that cliche is linked to Rin's character: the immediate, sensual experience that sex provides gives Hisao insight into how Rin thinks: only of the present.

The overall structure of the visual novel is a cliche: japanese high school setting, each path is a romance with a separate girl...
true it is a cliche but nonetheless it's still able to capture the feelings of all the fans here and bring them together with a common interest :)
I mean giving a ring to someone you love in a romantic restaurant is cliche as well, but everyone does it and doesn't make the act any less cute. Plus i don't see the Lilly changing her prideful self, but really accepting that she can now rely on someone rather than take all the burden.

Wonderboy

Re: Lilly twist (spoilers)

Post by Wonderboy » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:25 pm

In a real life setting someone like Lilly probably would have played for more time. Think about it: She's been to japanese schools for all her life and now her parents want to pull her out 6-9 months before she graduates. Wouldn't YOU in that case tell them "Hey folks I really miss you and all but how about you let me finish highschool here instead of possible making me restart the last year in a foreign country? Another few months shouldn't be problematic given the long time I spent without you, hm?" And then use that time to decide whether Hisao is worth a long-term relationship (vs long-distance relationship).
But this is a story/game so the plot decides the conflict not the other way around.

harlequin
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Re: Lilly twist (spoilers)

Post by harlequin » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:09 pm

I think Lilly keeping the decision to herself was explained as Haiso being a bit stupid and just letting himself rely on her and not realising when he needed to be there for her. That obviously leads to the airport scene.

Of course Lilly reassures him that he was there for her and it was just her burden, but then she wouldn't be Lilly if she didn't

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