Yamaku Book Club (20200427 Two Flat Jokes)

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StilesLong
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (20180218 'Schwäche' by WetCrate)

Post by StilesLong » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:59 am

ProfAllister wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:06 pm
Also for context, since some of the comments seem to have missed it, this was posted May 27, 2009. Act 1 was released on April 29, 2009. The Canon was much smaller back then, with a lot more unknowns. It's really not fair to judge it for inconsistencies with post-Act 1 Canon.
Can we have, moving forward, some sort of notice that says, "hey guys, this is pre-whatever canon"?


I must still agree with QS though, prof. At the end of the day, Hisao's ties with Lilly are said to be strong, but we don't witness them at all. It's hard to feel anything about the main conflict in this fic without meeting Lilly. We can abstractedly imagine how she will feel (presumably awful) but it is as thought it is happening to someone we've never met before: we feel bad, but not as bad as if it were happening to a close friend of ours.

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brythain
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (20180218 'Schwäche' by WetCrate)

Post by brythain » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:21 am

StilesLong wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:59 am
Can we have, moving forward, some sort of notice that says, "hey guys, this is pre-whatever canon"?
I'll try to do that. But I think pre-2012 you can make allowances, post-2012 or so there is no excuse for breaking canon. What do you think?
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Oddball
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (20180218 'Schwäche' by WetCrate)

Post by Oddball » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:28 am

brythain wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:21 am
StilesLong wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:59 am
Can we have, moving forward, some sort of notice that says, "hey guys, this is pre-whatever canon"?
I'll try to do that. But I think pre-2012 you can make allowances, post-2012 or so there is no excuse for breaking canon. What do you think?
I don't think we need to make any kind of notice on it, personally.
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StilesLong
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (20180218 'Schwäche' by WetCrate)

Post by StilesLong » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:45 am

Oddball wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:28 am
brythain wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:21 am
StilesLong wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:59 am
Can we have, moving forward, some sort of notice that says, "hey guys, this is pre-whatever canon"?
I'll try to do that. But I think pre-2012 you can make allowances, post-2012 or so there is no excuse for breaking canon. What do you think?
I don't think we need to make any kind of notice on it, personally.
I'm suggesting it because I'm an idiot who forgets to check the timestamps...

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Mirage_GSM
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (20180218 'Schwäche' by WetCrate)

Post by Mirage_GSM » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:24 pm

Interestingly, most of those terms seem apt, though it's likely the intended use was simply "weakness". I'll defer any further reflection on German to our resident native speaker.
If you insist... :-)
weakness, debility, deficiency, frailty, feebleness, faintness, failing, softness, foible, penchant, fondness, slackness, partiality, slightness, poorness, proclivity, dimness, lightness, lowness, unsoundness, or brittleness.
I agree that the intended meaning was probably simply "weakness" or one of its synonyms.
A lot of the other terms are also just synonyms for each other, e.g. penchant, fondness, partiality and proclivity - as well as weakness itself - all indicate a certain preference for something. Softness fits only in the sense that someone "has a soft spot for someone" but that is a bit far-fetched. When used in this way "Schwäche" would usually need to mention the thing someone has a penchant FOR, otherwise noone would think of that meaning.
Similarly when used meaning brittleness or unsoundness it should be in form of a compound word like "Materialschwäche" i.e. structural weakness.
I have no idea under what circumstances the word can mean dimness, lightness or lowness...

Regarding the rest of your post, I never for a moment thought that Emi intentionally sabotaged her leg. (I did think it was a quite contrived plot device, though.)
Also WetCrate commented himself that if Emi seemed manipulative with her self-pity that was not intentional on his part, so I think we can dismiss the "intentional sabotage and pre-planned seduction" theory:
WetCrate wrote:
DuaneMoody wrote:The story's good, although Emi's self-pitying behavior seems painfully manipulative at points (perhaps that's your intention).
...But thanks for the comment on Emi's behavior. It wasn't really on purpose, but then again it doesn't go against the grain of the story, either. I'll have to ponder that one.
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (20180218 'Schwäche' by WetCrate)

Post by TheHivemind » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:48 pm

ProfAllister wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:06 pm

As I touched on, it's fascinating from an academic standpoint to see it prefigure themes and conflicts from the final product (especially since thehivemind headcanons Emi as a lesbian ;)).
Incorrect! Emi is bi. Misha, on the other hand, is not.

Right, that's all. Carry on.

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Oddball
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (20180218 'Schwäche' by WetCrate)

Post by Oddball » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:55 pm

Well, there ya' go. Straight from the source.
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Craftyatom
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (20180218 'Schwäche' by WetCrate)

Post by Craftyatom » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:06 am

Not what I expected going in, I'll say that much up front. Thanks to Prof for warning me not to read any of the discussion first - I usually read this thread as it happens, which is often before I get around to reading the actual story being discussed, but staying out of the know really did give me a better appreciation of the fic. If you haven't read it yet, you probably shouldn't be reading this post. Anyways.

Premise wasn't 'ground-breaking', but it was fairly fresh. I don't think I've ever seen another fic where Hisao displays full-on infidelity (though I certainly haven't read them all). Obviously there's the example in canon, but this was back in '09, so it wasn't taken directly from the game. I knew from the beginning what kind of angle the author was going to take with it, but that didn't really detract from the experience. It was well-written, with just a hint of poor word choice ("portal"? really?) and one or two confusing sentences. The characterizations actually felt pretty good, too, which is usually the greatest fault of stories focused on sex, so that's commendable (though, since this is pre-release and the writers liked it, maybe it contributed to the canon). Overall, I actually really enjoyed this story, much as I didn't think I would after the first minute or two of reading.

I particularly enjoyed the way the story was framed. Hisao, appalled with himself, sits there recounting the event in his mind. A bit cliche, but it definitely works. One way it really helped was with how Hisao's thoughts while talking to Emi seemed off: he was acutely aware that Emi being in his room and close to him was dangerous, specifically because he was afraid she'd make a move on him. It felt like a bit much, like he was overthinking things, even more than we normally expect from his character, and just 'happened' to foretell disaster. After all, if I hadn't read the beginning of the story, I would've thought Hisao was being overly worried about nothing. But then I realized that it made a lot more sense when framed as a retelling of the past: he wasn't explicitly thinking those things at the time, but with the benefit of hindsight, his recollection of the story would obviously focus on how "something seem[ed] very wrong". I'm not sure if the author intended that, but I think it worked out that way, at least in my mind, and improved the quality of the story as a whole.

The story would've been much better, of course, with at least a second chapter. Leaving off where it does, the reader can imagine what happens next to some extent, but the truth is that we don't know enough about the story to make any properly educated guesses. Does Hisao try to hide how he's feeling from Hanako, or does he become a zombie, unable to live normally with the visions of his past? How much does Hisao's obvious disgust the morning after affect Emi - and does she look for more from him? Did she plan this, at least to some extent? Who else finds out about all this, and when? Who do they find out from? How are all of those people affected? There are a lot of interesting questions to be answered here, that we can't really answer on our own. A continuation would likely have cleared all of that up, but alas, none ever happened. (This is my argument against Lilly being unimportant - she obviously would've been important eventually, and Hanako would've been important much sooner.)
ProfAllister wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:06 pm
I get the sense that I may be putting Hisao's thought of "These things aren't supposed to break" in greater prominence than maybe other readers might.
I thought something quite similar: only difference is that I expected her to do it in an attempt to actually take Hisao for keeps, not just as a form of revenge.
QuietlySomething wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:18 pm
I find it a little grating when the main character's thoughts in first person are just intermittently used in italics in a third person story. Makes me feel like the story should just go all the way and use first person throughout.
I can understand what you mean, but I think it's a good way to display stream of consciousness without losing reader's omniscience. Could this story have been first person? Absolutely - the only perspective we're ever worried about is Hisao's. At the same time, however, I can understand the author's desire to use 3rd person, as it makes the framing a bit easier.
WetCrate wrote:...But thanks for the comment on Emi's behavior. It wasn't really on purpose, but then again it doesn't go against the grain of the story, either. I'll have to ponder that one.
I can understand both sides of this. At the time of reading, I did consider Emi's language a bit manipulative, but in retrospect (and since I lived under the same roof as a troubled high school girl for quite a while) I don't think it was intended to be as powerful as it ended up being.

Oh, and (as if this post wasn't long enough) someone with more artistic inclination than me has given the whole banner thing a go. His name is "DoomGuy500", and he also offered up wallpaper-sized versions of the banner, if anyone wants them. Let us know what you think.
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scratchminus
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (20180218 'Schwäche' by WetCrate)

Post by scratchminus » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:05 pm

I think I'm going to keep my thoughts as concise as I can on this one. (Edit from future scratchminus: I failed to keep it concise lol)

I'll start by saying that writing a story about Emi creates an immediate bias for me (not a negative one, mind you), so my instinct is almost always to go into it with a positive mindset. I don't think that overly skews my idea of what truly good works are, but it's just something to consider.

That said, I enjoyed this. I think the writing was very well done and flowed in a way that kept me actually interested in the words being said, rather than just lazily following along. There are the obvious parts where the word choice gets overly "thesaurus-like", but since that's already been addressed a lot I'll leave it at that. My only real issue with the story is the characterization of Emi in some parts. She kind of jumps around from being typical Emi to overly aggressive/manipulative to extremely self-loathing. While all of these things are indeed characteristics she has shown (albeit in much smaller doses and levels of intensity), the way it's displayed in the story is a bit frantic. However, considering the timing and length of the story, I don't exactly hold that against it. And I'm not saying that Emi is a bad character in this, just that she jumps around a lot despite that kind of being the point.

In terms of the story itself, it's not exactly anything new or crazy, but I enjoyed it. I understand the idea that making a love triangle without one of the corners being present isn't exactly the best, but I feel like this wasn't supposed to be about Lilly in the first place. The focus was on how Emi felt, how Hisao felt about her, and the choices that they made despite knowing that they shouldn't have. Since that's what the author chose to focus on, I don't see how Lilly is particularly relevant. Maybe it makes the drama less dramatic, but I think that's besides the point. In my eyes, the conflict is more about the feelings between Emi and Hisao and how, even though we don't have any connection to his girlfriend, it's still morally wrong and he goes through a lot to figure out what he should do.

All in all, a good story I think. Would likely be better if it had been continued, but even as is I think it's interesting enough to stand on its own.

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Oddball
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (20180218 'Schwäche' by WetCrate)

Post by Oddball » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:02 pm

Image
(I think I'll stick with the big logo.)

Now we're going to read ... The Diary of Tezuka Rin...or Rin Tezuka by dewelar

In case you didn't notice, it's a Rin story. Those are often interesting.
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brythain
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Yamaku Book Club (20180225 'The Diary of Tezuka Rin…' by dewelar)

Post by brythain » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:17 pm

Oddball wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:02 pm
Now we're going to read ... The Diary of Tezuka Rin...or Rin Tezuka by dewelar

In case you didn't notice, it's a Rin story. Those are often interesting.
It's not quite a story. It was dewelar's only experiment before he decided to start writing the amazing 'Developments'. But it was an interesting experiment, I'd say. The Diary is a bit too staccato for Rin, tries a bit too hard to be Rin-like. As a first work, it's natural to see many of us go a little overboard in characterisation, such that it becomes almost caricaturish.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (20180225 'The Diary of Tezuka Rin…' by dewelar)

Post by QuietlySomething » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:18 pm

It made me smile.

I agree with bry overall, it does go a little overboard. The rampant capitalization particularly. But I've read plenty of fics involving Rin that sounded a lot less like her so it didn't bother me that much.

Particularly uncharacteristic in my eyes is that Rin would actually use a journal in the first place, for someone so especially uncomfortable expressing herself in words.

Still like I said I did enjoy it for what it was.

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Mirage_GSM
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (20180225 'The Diary of Tezuka Rin…' by dewelar)

Post by Mirage_GSM » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:15 am

Nemz wrote:Decent enough start, but you'll have to actually develop some sort of plot to keep me interested.
At least now we know where he got the idea for the title of his next story :-)
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

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griffon8 wrote:Kosher, just because sex is your answer to everything doesn't mean that sex is the answer to everything.
Sore wa himitsu desu.

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (20180225 'The Diary of Tezuka Rin…' by dewelar)

Post by ProfAllister » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:41 pm

My impression of this touches on an interesting point of discussion for fan fiction writing: imitation vs emulation.

For the purposes of this discussion, what I mean by imitation is simply the act of taking what was already in the source material, and rearranging it, more or less. By contrast, what I mean by emulation is taking what was in the source material and building on it, taking it somewhere new.

This work feels a bit too much imitation - half the lines feel ripped directly from what Rin said in game at one point or another.

It's pretty subjective, and honestly a tricky balance to maintain - stray too far from imitation, and you get character derailment and quasi-OC. The goal, of course, is to bring the characters into new and unfamiliar settings, give them new and unfamiliar things to say, but keep them feeling like the characters everyone knows and loves/hates/tolerates.
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (20180225 'The Diary of Tezuka Rin…' by dewelar)

Post by dewelar » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:35 pm

Admittedly, this kind of falls under "Old Shame" for me. It was a work that didn't work. It was intended to take place some time after Rin's good ending, as an experiment for her as well as for me. Perhaps it was because it didn't work for her that it didn't work for me -- or maybe the other way around -- or maybe both. I spent too much time with a different Rin, and then a different different Rin, to quite remember which of them might be true, but I'm fairly sure it's one of them. I'm getting better at forgetting things, but then that comes with all of the territories that Rin and I inhabit.

Ah, well. I think I got better.
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!

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