Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

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ksfan1989
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Re: Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

Post by ksfan1989 » Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:24 pm

There are only about 34 instances left in the entire 450.000 word story.
Which is 34 too many. It's extremely amateurish and quite jarring to read. I'm not going to harp on this any further because it's been said enough, but suffice to say it's not something that should ever be used.

As for the grammar, like I said I really don't have time to go through the whole text and highlight it all; I honestly would if I could. Just as a random sample I've picked a few excerpts from chapter 26.
As I notice my water bottle being nearly empty already, I mutter this to myself without intending anyone to hear it, but moments later I nevertheless feel something poke me in the back, and when I carefully look behind me I can see Hanako offering me hers.
That's a lot of unnecessary comma splicing. This should have been split into two sentences.
I take a small sip from Hanako's bottle, which is still about half-full, and then hold it out behind me until I can feel it being taken from my hand.
More unnecessary commas. "I take a small sip from Hanako's half-full bottle, then hold it behind me until I feel her take it from my hand."
Gently lowering her to the ground, I'm startled when I notice her complexion is paler than when we left, her forehead is covered by numerous tiny beads of sweat, and her breathing seems slightly shallower than it should be.
Yet more comma splicing. This chapter seems to be full of that. I'm not going to keep picking them out but that's not the last unnecessary comma here by any stretch.
If this is about those history lectures I've been throwing around; I've had practice in the last few days.
In this case you've used a semicolon where you should have used a comma. Semicolons link complete independent clauses. "If this is about those history lectures I've been throwing around" is not an independent clause.
from the airport, but... Yes,
comma, preposition, ellipsis, comma. With dialogue you can play with rules a bit since you're transcribing how people speak, but this is just awkward. It would have worked better as "... from the airport... but yes, ..."

The word yes also shouldn't be capitalized here since an ellipsis doesn't actually end a sentence.
...copy of the lastest school newspaper out of it.
There's a typo in the word "lastest." I don't recall seeing many of those but since I've spotted it I might as well mention it.
Now, some news organisations are leaning heavier towards...
Should be "more heavily" instead of "heavier." "Heavier" is an adjective, and needs a noun. In this case you're describing an action (leaning) and thus need the adverb form instead. You could argue that it gets a pass for being dialogue, but my counterargument would be that as a journalist and professional writer Karla would have impeccable grammar.

I'll leave it there as I think I've amply demonstrated my point. This is just what I've picked out from skimming a random sample; a comprehensive list would take me hours to compile, which sadly isn't time I have to devote to this. I know there was at least one place where you should have used perfect tense but used past tense instead. You also frequently use the word "quality" to describe something good about a person, but a "quality" is simply an attribute and therefore the word begs an adjective (eg "a positive quality.")

Some of these may seem nitpicky but it's the small details that can take a work from being merely "good" to being "great." This is a good story, but with a bit more polish it could be much better.

EDIT: I took a few minutes to find an example where the tense got confused. Here's one from chapter 18:
We spent the last two hours hanging out in Lilly's room, eating the cake and sweets we obtained from the store in town this afternoon. Despite it being a supposed farewell party, the mood is surprisingly relaxed.
The story is entirely written in present tense and they're still in Lilly's room. The first clause should be present perfect instead of past tense (ie "We have spent the last two hours...").

I'm positive this isn't the only occurrence, but I thought since I picked on you for it I should find a supporting example.

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Frankyo
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Re: Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

Post by Frankyo » Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:54 am

Well I've finished reading this behemoth. I liked it, gave me some good feels. I'll let other people pick out your grammar mistakes and how they didn't like your writing style, but I personally thought it was pretty good :lol: . Your interpretation of Hanako is different from mine though, since I would think that she would be much more emotionally stronger after her VN ending, or heck, even after the original Sisterhood story.

What I've learned:

- Zee heart is the strongest muscle

- jeezus it sucks to have depression and insecurities

- the power of friendship and bonds with others (cliche anime moral, but very true regardless :mrgreen: )

- there is a lot of descrimination towards the disabled and foreigners in Japan. A lot. Really liked chapter 60.
Girls: Hanako/Misha > Lilly > Emi > Shizune/Rin
Routes: I realized that every route has its own charms, but felt that Shizune's was lacklustre. It has Misha though!

"No masters or kings, when the ritual begins"

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Yukarin
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Re: Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

Post by Yukarin » Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:27 am

That was amazing. Nothing else has to be said.

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Mirage_GSM
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Re: Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

Post by Mirage_GSM » Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:17 am

ksfan1989 wrote:Just as a random sample I've picked a few excerpts from chapter 26....
Oh, that's what you meant be "horrible grammar"... About those:
Comma splicing may be unneccessary but it is not an error. If an author chooses to combine two sentences with a conjunction, because they describe two thoughts that he thinks belong together, they can do so without violating any rules. I'd only object if the sentences become so long that they become hard to follow, but I don't think GP's story contains any of those.
I take a small sip from Hanako's bottle, which is still about half-full, and then hold it out behind me until I can feel it being taken from my hand.
More unnecessary commas.
Guilty as charged. neither of those commas would have been strictly neccessary. I don't think they impair readability either, though. I think there were two or three cases, where I had a comma put in, that wasn't required gramatically, to improve readability or to remove ambiguity from a sentence.
from the airport, but... Yes,
comma, preposition, ellipsis, comma. With dialogue you can play with rules a bit since you're transcribing how people speak, but this is just awkward. It would have worked better as "... from the airport... but yes, ..."
The word yes also shouldn't be capitalized here since an ellipsis doesn't actually end a sentence.
Strictly speaking, the ellipsis should only be used for omissions in the English language. In general usage, however, it is also used for a thought or spoken line trailing off.
The comma in front of a preposition is perfectly valid, if an independent clause follows the preposition. In this case the sentence trails off, but from context it's highly likely that an independent clause would have followed.
And since a new sentence starts after the ellipsis, that new sentence should start with a capitalized word. Sometimes there is some ambiguity on whether or not the sentence following an ellipsis is a new one or a continuation of the previous. Depends a bit on the context.
We spent the last two hours hanging out in Lilly's room, eating the cake and sweets we obtained from the store in town this afternoon. Despite it being a supposed farewell party, the mood is surprisingly relaxed.
The story is entirely written in present tense and they're still in Lilly's room. The first clause should be present perfect instead of past tense (ie "We have spent the last two hours...").[/quote]
You're correct... It seems present perfect has fallen so much out of use these days that I didn't even notice anymore^^° I hope there are not too many instances of this.
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

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griffon8 wrote:Kosher, just because sex is your answer to everything doesn't mean that sex is the answer to everything.
Sore wa himitsu desu.

ksfan1989
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Re: Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

Post by ksfan1989 » Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:26 am

Mirage_GSM wrote:Comma splicing may be unneccessary but it is not an error.
And tree bark is edible, but I don't see many people snacking on it. "Not an error" is not the same as "correct."
Mirage_GSM wrote: don't think they impair readability either, though.
Let's just say you and I disagree on that point. There's a little too much pepper in the pot for my taste. Generally speaking, it is my opinion that a sentence should require two commas only rarely, and more than that almost never. If you find that you need a surfeit of commas to make a sentence readable the better solution is to simply rewrite the sentence.

I don't know if the awkward and stilted phrasing was an intentional stylistic choice; I brought that up in my first post as a possibility. Either way, it really harmed enjoyment of the piece for me. It's still good; if it weren't, I wouldn't have bothered to bring these things up. Silk purses and sow's ears and all that.

I don't know. Perhaps I'm burdened with an overabundance of education and it's made me snobbish. These are just my impressions.

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Mirage_GSM
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Re: Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

Post by Mirage_GSM » Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:35 am

Let's just say you and I disagree on that point. There's a little too much pepper in the pot for my taste. Generally speaking, it is my opinion that a sentence should require two commas only rarely, and more than that almost never.
Maybe it's just whether or not you're used to them. My native language frequently requires half a dozen or more in one sentence :mrgreen:
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

My collected KS-Fan Fictions: Mirage's Myths
griffon8 wrote:Kosher, just because sex is your answer to everything doesn't mean that sex is the answer to everything.
Sore wa himitsu desu.

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BlackWaltzTheThird
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Re: Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

Post by BlackWaltzTheThird » Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:13 pm

Edgar Allan Poe wrote:And then my vision fell upon the seven tall candles upon the table. At first they wore the aspect of charity, and seemed white and slender angels who would save me; but then, all at once, there came a most deadly nausea over my spirit, and I felt every fibre in my frame thrill as if I had touched the wire of a galvanic battery, while the angel forms became meaningless spectres, with heads of flame, and I saw that from them there would be no help. And then there stole into my fancy, like a rich musical note, the thought of what sweet rest there must be in the grave. The thought came gently and stealthily, and it seemed long before it attained full appreciation; but just as my spirit came at length properly to feel and entertain it, the figures of the judges vanished, as if magically, from before me; the tall candles sank into nothingness; their flames went out utterly; the blackness of darkness supervened; all sensations appeared swallowed up in a mad rushing descent as of the soul into Hades. Then silence, and stillness, night were the universe.
-The Pit and the Pendulum, 1850

This is only half of the paragraph. Far too many commas and not nearly enough periods, no? Of course, one must not over-use periods either, lest their sentences become staccato - lacking in flow. I do not think there is any definable metric for determining what amount consitutes either transgression. In this context, striking a balance between properness and readability is more important than any particular rule.
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ksfan1989
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Re: Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

Post by ksfan1989 » Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:58 am

It's a bit disingenuous to advance something written a century and a half ago as an example to be followed. Poe's writing was a product of his time, but such things have been well out of fashion since the early twentieth century at latest.

Not to get bogged down too much in this discussion; or at least not any further than we already have. The broader point is that the work would benefit greatly from more proofing and editing. Or to put it another way, it reads like an early draft of what could become an excellent piece. It's in the neighbourhood of great, but just that little bit shy of hitting it. Hence the 7/10.

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Leaty
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Re: Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

Post by Leaty » Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:23 am

Johnny Got His Gun, by Dalton Trumbo, is a novel without any commas whatsoever.

Personally, I think the argument for or against commas is kind of pointless, but it's especially ridiculous to assert that excessive use of commas "fell out of fashion" a century ago. Writers use a lot of commas, or almost none; it's their choice, and their voice.

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Mirage_GSM
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Re: Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

Post by Mirage_GSM » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:58 am

ksfan1989 wrote:It's a bit disingenuous to advance something written a century and a half ago as an example to be followed.
I don't think BlackWaltz meant this to be an example to be followed... At least I hope he didn't.
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

My collected KS-Fan Fictions: Mirage's Myths
griffon8 wrote:Kosher, just because sex is your answer to everything doesn't mean that sex is the answer to everything.
Sore wa himitsu desu.

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Blasphemy
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Re: Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

Post by Blasphemy » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:44 pm

Slow reader chiming in!

Took my time with this peace and can't read very fast either way but I'm finally done; hats off to those of you who finish(ed) this behemoth in only a few sessions.

A big thanks to you Guest Poster, the amount of work you must have put into this is greatly appreciated and resulted in a very enjoyable read. My criticism will probably follow in the following days. In general there's certainly a lot I liked but I also have my own share of issues with this; overall more (relative to the entire content) than with the original 18 chapter draft. It's time to go to bed now though!

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BlackWaltzTheThird
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Re: Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

Post by BlackWaltzTheThird » Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:33 am

Mirage_GSM wrote:I don't think BlackWaltz meant this to be an example to be followed... At least I hope he didn't.
I didn't. My point was that excessively long sentences with an inordinate amount of commas are undesirable, with the caveat that too few is also undesirable.
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baggypantsman
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Re: Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

Post by baggypantsman » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:15 pm

I discovered this a few days ago and just plowed through it, that was amazing. Great continuation of your already great continuation.

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Brisingr
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Re: Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

Post by Brisingr » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:39 pm

Oh man, this took me forever to finish. First off, let me say that you have completely 'sploded my mind with this. Secondly, I'd like to say that while I was fully expecting some feels with this, I was still horribly blindsided by what you have written. This piece of art you have written deserves a better applause than I am capable of expressing but nonetheless deserves one. I fully intend to give reviews on at least some of the chapters but I need some time to recover first.

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Re: Sisterhood: True Edition (Hanako Epilogue) (Completed)

Post by Rhodri » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:16 pm

So last Monday I was at Harry Potter Studio tour in London and decided to kill some time before my tour started by checking out the forums on my ipod. I saw the thread with the 'True Edition' subtitle and was confused as all hell, thinking it was the original thread with a little extra thrown in at the end before it all began to set in as I had a quick peek. Made it a priority there and then to read it soon as I got back home on Wednesday afternoon.


First, the good(and this is the stuff that comes straight to the mind after spending the last 5 days reading and I'm not the best at giving feedback)

The detail on Japanese culture and mannerisms is brilliant, doubt anything else on the forum comes close. Some elements I already had a basic knowledge of thanks to random snippets I've picked up from the internet over the years but this really pieced them together nicely and taught me a lot. Extremely insightful on how Japanese education, the work environment and family life works.

The Broken Quills segment is very good. As others have said before, its the slice of life elements of the story like this that work well.

The final artwork and the credits. D'awww. I didn't really get many feels from this story but the artwork really added a nice feel filled punch to the end.

Karla and Hiro I really liked. As KS characters go, they are blank slates that can be moulded to suit the needs of Fan Fiction authors and I liked the fact you didn't go for the easy route as make them unlikeable.


The not so good
There are times where parts of the story dragged along, going into too much detail for some mundane bits, the main culprit being the letters/emails in Chapter 57 and the Scotland segment (then again, as a steam railway nut I was begging that they go visit the Strathspey Railway in nearby Aviemore). It was only when the heart attack happened that I got drawn back into the story. Then again it did feel like an easy means to progress the plot, especially how Hanako had only recently gotten her certificate, which I think is my main gripe. If it happened later on in the story like say when Hanako was at her most vulnerable, it might have had more of an impact on me as a reader.

Some of the dialogue comes across as...clunky. Not sure what it is, but there are times when It really bugs me, especially Karla's when the group are in Scotland.

The H scenes. Don't know why, but I found myself skipping most of them.


Overall
The original Sisterhood is a must read for all KS fans, the definitive Hanako epilogue story that emerged not long after the final release of KS which has stood the test of time. The 'True Edition' has a large shoes to fill. There are times when it falters like all works, makes you wonder if the story needed continuing in the first place, but it more can capable of fulfilling the task handed to it.
"She also ties you up to a chair. You're gonna like that. Chairs are good. Chairs are your friend."

BeeFhGhost, Jan 15th 2012.

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