Cheating and KS.

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wazuzu
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Re: Cheating and KS.

Post by wazuzu » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:11 am

Professor_Pajamas wrote:Emi have the mentioned trust issues...
Yeah, and it didn't stop her from having sex with Hisao and calling him a fuckbuddy. Not that it would apply to her having a relationship already by default, but it still counts against her.

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Xanatos
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Re: Cheating and KS.

Post by Xanatos » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:14 am

wazuzu wrote:Nevertheless, Hans did a good job on reasoning your opinions. Kinda. But his post unwillingly ends any matters of possible discussion. Which isn't what I wanted in the end, though I did get my answers. Well, that's it.
I gave my reasons myself, actually. You just never asked for elaboration amidst all the accusations against my dead soulless imagination. :P

It's essentially the same as if I asked someone "Would wazuzu beat a cripple to death?" - Well, yeah, there's always the possibility...But it's (hey, here's a line you haven't heard yet!) not in your character. (Hopefully. :lol:)...Yeah, it's not imaginative, but it's the logical answer.

There's still possible discussion...Just not much from the cheating angle. I still like Moto's question.

There's a technical term for the "back" of the elbow too but people usually just call it a weenis.
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wazuzu
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Re: Cheating and KS.

Post by wazuzu » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:21 am

Well, my "reasons" were in my second post, and they mostly consisted of "everyone will think that they won't cheat, so I just take the opposite side just to justify my thread's existance", but it turned out to be quite toxic in the end.

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Hans PK
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Re: Cheating and KS.

Post by Hans PK » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:24 am

wazuzu wrote:Well, my "reasons" were in my second post, and they mostly consisted of "everyone will think that they won't cheat, so I just take the opposite side just to justify my thread's existance", but it turned out to be quite toxic in the end.
Playing devil's advocate requires experience and the reasonable possibility of doing so without being shot down.

I believe that this is what they call a "learning experience" :lol: , no offense.
Professor_Pajamas wrote:I think I'd have to agree with Xanatos wholeheartedly. It just wouldn't be in any of these girls to go and get a fuck buddy. Hanako and Emi have the mentioned trust issues, while Lilly is too proper to do something like that. Shizune basically gives everything she has to what she does, so why would that change over Hisao? Honestly I don't understand Rin well enough to comment.

And to answer the three years thing, people don't change as quickly as you might think.
:(
... You just managed to say everything that I tried to in my earlier post but was too incompetent to fully articulate.
I feel crushingly inadequate.
YOU MAGNIFICENT FUCKING BASTARD! I WILL FIND YOUR SECRETS!
Last edited by Hans PK on Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
What is there left to say?

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Steinherz
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Re: Cheating and KS.

Post by Steinherz » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:30 am

Hans PK wrote:
wazuzu wrote:Well, my "reasons" were in my second post, and they mostly consisted of "everyone will think that they won't cheat, so I just take the opposite side just to justify my thread's existance", but it turned out to be quite toxic in the end.
Playing devil's advocate requires experience and the reasonable possibility of doing so without being shot down.

I believe that this is what they call a "learning experience" :lol: , no offense.
I agree. This whole thread is a learning experience :lol:
I write take a look, would you kindly?
I also draw, kind of.
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wazuzu
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Re: Cheating and KS.

Post by wazuzu » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:31 am

Hans PK wrote:Playing devil's advocate requires experience and the reasonable possibility of doing so without being shot down.

I believe that this is what they call a "learning experience" :lol: , no offense.
Haha, thanks, you broke the remaining tension.
And playing devil's advocate on the internet also requires a good keyboard.

On topic with Moto's question, I think the most impossible 3-year relationship would be Hisao+Rin, just because nothing actually changed in their relationships in good ending, except Rin's acceptance of Hisao around her doing strange things to her to relieve her tension. They will have questioningly good time together, but Rin will definitely grow up (losing some of her alien charm in the process) and split ways with Hisao, just because they are actually different.

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dewelar
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Re: Cheating and KS.

Post by dewelar » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:05 am

OK, now we're into a topic on which I have some thoughts. Apologies for my earlier interjection regarding Shizune, but it is one of those things that has been pushing my buttons since starting to read these forums, it needed voicing, and there really is no good place to voice it. I'm glad to see it didn't totally derail the discussion.

So, who's the most likely to still be with Hisao three years after the events of their arc? I've said it before that I think the ending of Hanako's arc left me with the strongest impression that something permanent was possible, and I'm sticking to it. The fact that they broke down together, and then built themselves back up together, is going to form a hugely strong bond. I think they now understand each other more than any other pairing.

Who's the least likely? Emi. I believe that, in her case, there's a reasonable likelihood that their relationship will develop in the direction of a deep friendship rather than true love. They, too, have a strong bond to each other (as do all five pairings, which is why I really had no intention of touching the "cheating" idea), but it's not quite as clear that it's the right type.

As has been noted repeatedly, Rin is the wild card. There's no way to quantify the possibility that she might, indeed, become different enough over three years that the two will drift apart. However, I have a few things to say against that idea.

Rin has said herself that Hisao is really the first person to really try to understand her. To a person like Rin, this is extremely important. This is what she wants, and needs, more than anything in the world. Even moreso, it's actually starting to happen by the end of her arc. It's because Rin is beginning to understand herself, and for me the subtext is that something within Hisao actually understood it all along, but it wasn't something he could explain, or even wrap his head around. Once Rin had her moment of clarity, Hisao could too.

Hisao was the catalyst that allowed Rin to accept herself. That's a mighty powerful thing, too. It's not something that's going to be set aside easily. Rin thought that she needed to destroy herself, but she didn't know how. In the end, what she needed to destroy, and did destroy, was the illusion that she could somehow make herself understood. As many clue bats as Hisao needed, it was that single, perfectly targeted one he gave to Rin that she needed to start on her path to self-actualization. AND IT WORKED.

I mentioned in my "newcomer's thoughts" post about how there's something very special about accepting the realization that you're never going to perfectly understand another person. (It's a theme that also runs through Helbereth's "Tomorrow's Doom" story, one of the reasons I'm enjoying it so much). Going on that journey of discovery is a strange and wondrous thing, and the longer you stay on it, the more rewarding it's going to be. Given what both of them have emotionally invested in their relationship now, I have a feeling that it's got a better chance than it's being given credit for having. I'd go so far as to rank it the second-most-likely.

Actually, I think if anyone's likely to move away from Hisao due to change within themselves, it's going to be Shizune. The sheer number of realizations she has about herself during her arc is damn impressive, and given her personality she's going to work at those before moving any further forward with her relationship with Hisao. That very process may lead to her becoming a person who's no longer compatible with him. The difficult part of prediction is that we only see the tip of the iceberg regarding the effects of those changes, but what we do see is positive, and enough IMO to squeak her ahead of Emi into fourth place.

Lilly...well, I've had a lot to say about Lilly lately :) . The effects of her relationship with Hisao is a bit like Rin's, but writ small. She comes to an understanding of herself, but it's not as deep and thus, perhaps, not as abiding as Rin's, and is perhaps initiated more by external factors (i.e., Hisao's heart attack) than by Hisao himself. It's clear that she honestly loves Hisao, and he honestly loves her, but for me the love is born of a place not as deep as Hanako's or Rin's. It's possible, and perhaps even likely, that it will grow into that place over time, but I believe that it's also less likely to survive circumstances that might arise that move to separate them. So...solidly in the middle.

Final calculus: Hanako >>> Rin > Lilly >> Shizune > Emi
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!

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Re: Cheating and KS.

Post by Sea » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:17 am

dewelar wrote: [words]
I think I like you.
You summed up everything I've read over this post, and while I've not wanted to comment, I think this concluded most of my thoughts. Also, I need to go play Rin's route.
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wazuzu
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Re: Cheating and KS.

Post by wazuzu » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:41 am

dewelar wrote: The fact that they broke down together, and then built themselves back up together, is going to form a hugely strong bond. I think they now understand each other more than any other pairing.
That one is the part I liked to read here. That is definitely the main reason Hisao and Hanako will continue their relationship. Although it raises the question of Hanako being dependant on Hisao (that's another troublesome topic, but let's just leave it be) and being much less sociable just because there's Hisao here for her, and no one else is needed.

And, the main reason I write that post, is that I apply things I mentioned earlier to Emi too - albeit to a lesser extent. Meeting her mom and opening her heart to Hisao (and seeing her in a wheelchair plus helping her to go for a ride) will actually make those bonds between Emi and Hisao quite strong. And even if they will eventually break up - they will continue to be good friends (and may even still be mating anyway).

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Re: Cheating and KS.

Post by Loonie » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:48 am

Let's stick to the concept of cheating rather than that of breaking up. A fair few couples do cheat on each other, but don't quite break up simply because of it. Turns out emotional attachments are much too strong to completely break with a simple physical act such as having sex. Damage, yes...but not break.

First of all, it's important to distinguish the fact that cheating is primarily a matter of breaking your partner's trust in you through promiscuity. Swinger couples, for example, have sex with many other people, but it's okay - because they trust each other to keep love and sex seperate. So for me the question of who would cheat on who in all of the 5 possible pairings moreso falls down to this: Who would be the most or the least trustworthy when it comes to sex?

And honestly, in any pairing, one cannot ignore just how susceptible Hisao would be to cheating. Quite possibly well above most of the girls and not just because he's a filthy man and all men think with their dicks all the time, but because his life expectancy is at 30 years of age, give or take a few depending on which arc we're talking about (Emi's for the longest lifespan, Lilly's for the shortest in my opinion). With that kind of factor constantly in the back of a man's mind, one tends to always think of all the things they haven't done yet...and yeah, having sex with someone other than your first love would kind of fall under that category. This is not to say that Hisao would always be the cheater...but it is to say that, under normal circumstances, a man of his age would be far more under threat of it than any of the girls if he had that kind of Damocles' sword hanging over him all the time.

As for the girls, well, it depends on what kinds of personality they would have, wouldn't it? Since the 3 years rule is in place we can safely assume that the events of the good endings transpired, so we can extrapolate from that:

Lilly: Honestly, her personality doesn't change that much with her good ending. She still likes to get hooked on pleasurable activity (like tea or having a romp when the mood strikes her), still tends to dodge or avoid thinking too hard on her own decisions (or lack thereof), that contributed to Hisao winding up with heart attacks, and this makes her a bit moreso susceptible to cheating than most would dare admit. Because she rarely thinks on how she herself could change things about herself and rather thinks on how she could merely cope and tolerate the way things are - something that never works out in the long run when it comes to personal decisions. Coupled with Hisao having the shortest lifespan as well and...yeah, I forsee trouble here. Still, given how Hisao comes across during his talks with Akira, I'd say Lilly'd be the first to cheat with Hisao feeling validated by it and following her lead soon after (which wouldn't make it any better really). Damn, I know I'm gonna get flak for this one. :lol:

Shizune: Some potential exists here for cheating, I think. But given the fact that Shizune does change in the good ending towards a person that does manage to learn from others (Misha) and who actually sets a goal for herself, I'd honestly say she's not that much under threat of committing it. Add to that the fact that she will probably remain the workaholic she is as well as how her intelligence guides her moreso than her emotions and yeah, I definitely see little reason for her to break that trust. That being said, her relationship with Hisao would also be pretty loose. He'd work to apply and stay in Yamaku as a teacher while she'd go off on her quest to become a philanthropist so they'd probably not see much of each other - which does tend to increase the odds of one party or the other cheating. But oddly enough...I don't think either of them would do it in the end, because of how cerebral both of them are. So no, I don't think it'd happen here.

Hanako: A lot of things change with Hanako with her good ending. She might not quite have the confidence she wants to have yet, but she is well on her way and after 3 years time yeah...I think she'd be fine in that respect. Add to that that it was Hisao who was directly responsible for her gaining it and I think she'd be fiercely loyal to him so - next to no chance whatsoever of her cheating on him. Would Hisao do it? Well...in her arc it is established that Hisao was, in fact, wounded moreso than he cared to admit to himself with his heart attack and leaving his former life behind. So much so that it led him to being afraid of losing Hanako, which in the end brought the two together on the same level. Would he change in 3 years time as she did or would he not?

What Hanako did for Hisao was make him moreso honest with just how fragile he really was, so if another girl came along and spoke honestly to who Hisao was 3 years later...yeah, he could become enamored with her too. So I'd say there is a chance of Hisao cheating on Hanako, but even if it happened it would've been due to him actually having feelings for that other person rather than just your casual romp. So yeah...there is a chance, but it's a slight one from Hisao's end.

Emi: Well, let's see, shall we? Honestly, if we were talking about Emi from the bad ending I would say - hell yes, she would cheat because it'd be the perfect way to mask her true intent: trying to push Hisao away before she could get too emotionally attached to him. In fact, in hindsight, I'm surprised that her bad ending doesn't conclude with Hisao waiting longer than that 1 week to speak with her and next time him seeing Emi with another boy as she says to him something like: "You weren't the first and sure as heck don't have to be the last." with a shrug. That'd probably drive the soul-crushing point of it all even better.

But since it is necessarily Emi from the good ending, and after 3 years, the equation changes. She risked emotional investment into Hisao, the likes of which she had never dared to ever since her accident - that's not something that you break off all that lightly. Would she feel the temptation of a quick romp with someone that caught her fancy? Sure - she's very extroverted, has a very relaxed attitued towards sex and it'd no doubt always be there. But even if she did, it would not be something that would last for very long and she would always come back to Hisao. That is...if he wanted her back. On Hisao's end I honestly don't see it happening. He primarily decides with his brains in Emi's arc and is pretty much the most standup guy of all the arcs. So in the end I'd say, yeah...there is a chance, but it's a slight one from Emi's end.

Rin: Honestly this one is the hardest to predict out of them all. In Emi's arc it is specifically noted that Rin doesn't quite 'get' the difference between boyfriends/girlfriends and just regular friends all that well. In that respect, she has trouble noting the whole 'trust' factor that usually comes with those designations. But again...we're not talking about that Rin, we're talking about the one from the good ending. And she does change a fair bit, it's just not immediately visible or apparent. With the good ending Hisao shows Rin that, in his own words, she doesn't have to be alone, so long as there is a person to whom she can come back to from under the rain. Rin takes this in stride and by the end she also notes that Hisao has been a kind person to her, even when he really wasn't.

So does this make her attached to him? Not quite. If someone like Hisao were to come along in Rin's life, I honestly don't think she'd perceive it as that bad to 'get together' with that person the same way as she did with Hisao. The chances of it happening would be astronomical (heck, Hisao and Rin getting together is in itself something that I consider almost impossible to actually happen IRL), but she would certainly feel few inhibitions towards it simply because 'Why not?' Out of all the girls, she'd probably be the most suitable for a swinger lifestyle, even if she doesn't have that strong of a sex drive.

So it's a bit of a shame that Hisao isn't like that himself, because he is very much so attached to her. After all, she was the person who got him out of his cynical frame of mind, who showed him all the different ways to get on with life without having it feel like a burden. In fact I'd say he's about as fiercely devoted to Rin as Hanako is to Hisao and that...could easily turn out to be a problem because I don't think Rin thinks of him that way. Still after 3 years time...who knows how Rin might turn out after living with him. But if I were to go purely on the good ending, I'd say yes - there is a real chance of cheating from the side of Rin, even if it's highly unlikely to happen due to not many people in the world being able to connect with her as Hisao did and even though she would honestly never quite understand the concept of cheating and how it could hurt Hisao.
Last edited by Loonie on Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:54 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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wazuzu
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Re: Cheating and KS.

Post by wazuzu » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:08 am

@ Loonie: your lovely post brings up several issues that I'd like to point out, but let's hold on to it until I'll get home to unleash 10-finger typing jutsu. For now you can have my thanks for detailed opinion on topic.

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Re: Cheating and KS.

Post by Ritter Delorges » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:13 am

I think it's an awful lot of extrapolation from very limited data, but ok, that's the game.

Generally, I would be careful with absolute black and white answers. It is difficult to identify a cheater in advance, but I think it could happen to many depending on the state of their relationship.

Hanako doesn't seem that likely to me. Of all the characters she has probably the biggest problem with betrayal in particular. I also don't see her as being especially susceptible to seduction. While her shyness strongly affects her actions towards others I don't think it affects her perception of others to anywhere near the same extent.

From what we see during the game Emi seems to be the one with the most developed and reflected ideas about her relationship and its rules. Of course that comparison is not entirely fair because after three years all the others would have given a little more thought to that as well, but that won't be much use to us for the purposes of this discussion. I think she would set herself (and Hisao) pretty clear limits in their relationship and would not break them lightly. If things aren't working out I can definitely see her dumping Hisao, though.

I think if the relationship doesn't develop to Shizune's satisfaction she would be relatively quick to close that chapter. She would probably do it properly and break up first, but I am not sure I would bet on that.

I can see Rin having slightly peculiar and not so obvious ideas about their relationship and her obligations towards Hisao. I can imagine scenarios where she is missing something in their relationship and is not able to articulate it sufficiently clearly. She might move on before Hisao fully realizes what has happened. I think it is unlikely that she would intentionally do anything that she would see as a betrayal of Hisao, but that could be cold comfort for him.

With Lilly I simply can't tell. I don't think I understand her enough to rule anything out.

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Re: Cheating and KS.

Post by MegaMoto » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:54 am

dewelar wrote:WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS

Final calculus: Hanako >>> Rin > Lilly >> Shizune > Emi
Gonna have to disagree with the Emi and Hisao are just friends thing. The ending scene of her route (the good end) really solidified their love for each other to me. You make some good points but I just can't see them being just friends not after what they went through together. You know who I could see just being friends Lilly. I can't say why it's just a feeling I have and as mentioned before even if I did have a good idea why I have this feeling I wouldn't be able to explain it well.

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wazuzu
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Re: Cheating and KS.

Post by wazuzu » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:59 am

MegaMoto wrote:I can't say why it's just a feeling I have and as mentioned before even if I did have a good idea why I have this feeling I wouldn't be able to explain it well.
It's called "personal preference", and it's totally okay, unless someone extrapolates it on others a lot. But even that way it's fine.

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MegaMoto
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Re: Cheating and KS.

Post by MegaMoto » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:02 am

wazuzu wrote:
MegaMoto wrote:I can't say why it's just a feeling I have and as mentioned before even if I did have a good idea why I have this feeling I wouldn't be able to explain it well.
It's called "personal preference", and it's totally okay, unless someone extrapolates it on others a lot. But even that way it's fine.
I think it has something to do with the fact that she seemed perfectly fine fucking off to Scotland before. This is getting back to my personal feelings of Lilly herself (I don't hate her) so I feel I should stop here.

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