Hanako's Bad Ending

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Nyzer
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Re: Hanako's Bad Ending

Post by Nyzer » Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:44 pm

A lot of that is what I was trying to say - the bad ending doesn't happen just because of Hisao's actions. Though I keep seeing people focus on his actions more than on Hanako's. I can see where Hisao screwed up in it, especially since he did have a third party with more experience give him some advice, but it's not just all on him. Neither of them is perfect, and that's part of what makes them such good characters.
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Re: Hanako's Bad Ending

Post by Loonie » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:14 pm

Do I treat this topic for what it says on the tin or do I run the risk of coming off as a preachy asswipe, like some other poster I know.

Meh...I'm a glutton for punishment tonight I guess. You're probably not going to like what I write here, but you did ask for opinions and my opinion of Hanako's bad end cannot help but be closely related to thoughts on my own past and on yours too, since that's the way you started this topic...so...
Zezin wrote:That that the SAY. But you can prove yourself all you want but for all public schools care you are just something that gets in the way of other students.
Don't prove it to them and don't prove it to some anonymous forumites like us. Prove it to yourself - that's all you really need to do. And before you say: 'I already have,' the answer is - no, you have not. If you would've, then you would not have exploded in exactly the same way as Hanako did, but would've told your friend in a firm (not shouting, but merely the epitomy of the phrase 'loud and clear') tone of voice that you are going to be fine for now and that he has to leave this instant. And if he still wouldn't have listened, you would've gone to your parents and told them that you don't want him in the house and, if they were anywhere half-decent, they would've backed you up on it.

I am certain of this much, because I honestly wish I had done something like that back when I was in that position, or even just that I would've had that latter option. Because when I exploded, like Hanako did in her bad end, at my parents out of my own sheer frustration at not having enough space, I was so certain back then that, if push came to shove, I could still run away from home with everything I could scrounge up and take my chances with the streets or somesuch. Every time I yelled at my parents and as they yelled back fooled me into feeling like it was true beyond any kind of doubt. And every time I exploded the worse I reacted to the situation at hand, blindly believing that I can take care of myself all on my own.

Now, almost a decade later, all I can say is thank fucking Christ my parents never pushed me to that point. Because the streets would've killed me. And, autism or not, it's no different with you. You can think and think that you don't need any help at all, but you'd be wrong. Everyone needs help, because we are all human. It's just that, in your case, that help has to sometimes (not always!) come in the form of getting enough space as opposed to people pushing you to do things you don't want to do. If you don't get that space, you explode. And the result of that is that it drives people away from you...but all too often it drives them away from you for good before you know it. Now you might think that's a good thing...but trust me on this - in 10 years time you will feel very differently.

This is because, once you'll eventually get that space (in my case it was when I moved out of my parents' house, but at your age that might not be a smart option), you have to ask yourself pretty much exactly what Crud posted. Do you consider yourself a human being or not. The tempting answer may be 'no', because you have autism and with so many people treating you with pity, and in spite of you hating it, it must be true...right? *sigh* Even if it were true (which it is definitely not), then that decision, if coupled with everything you've posted on these forums that reflects your attitude...I can tell you now, with absolute certainty, that answer won't lead to anywhere good.

So once you get some space, be sure to say 'yes' to the question wether you're a human being or not. And once you recharge your batteries, so to speak, act according to that answer by finding people who interest you or who are interested in you in ways other than merely pity. And once you find them, if they should falter in their judgement and do what Hisao did with Hanako in her bad end, don't explode at them again. Instead of being doomed to repeat it, learn from your past and just tell them clearly that you need space and that you'll talk to them later. The way I eventually learned to do with my parents.

Above all else, I'd say keep Crud's thoughts in mind. Consider other people's point of view before acting rashly. Or at least try to. Who knows, if you start pretending to consider other people's points of view before acting...you might just start doing so by accident.

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Xanatos
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Re: Hanako's Bad Ending

Post by Xanatos » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:34 pm

cpl_crud wrote:The Tile Game
To borrow what you said before and pointlessly add to it: If you have never played the tile game, you cannot call yourself human.
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Re: Hanako's Bad Ending

Post by Loonie » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:35 pm

Xanatos wrote:
cpl_crud wrote:The Tile Game
To borrow what you said before and pointlessly add to it: If you have never played the tile game, you cannot call yourself human.
Pfft...that'd probably make 66% of the world not-human, because extroverts don't tend to play the tile game, like, ever. :P

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Zezin
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Re: Hanako's Bad Ending

Post by Zezin » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:36 pm

Xanatos wrote:
cpl_crud wrote:The Tile Game
To borrow what you said before and pointlessly add to it: If you have never played the tile game, you cannot call yourself human.
Exactly. I have been playing the tile game since I was 9.

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Re: Hanako's Bad Ending

Post by Nyzer » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:41 pm

Pfft...that'd probably make 66% of the world not-human, because extroverts don't tend to play the tile game, like, ever.
Even extroverts end up walking somewhere alone at some point in their lives. At least, I'd hope so.

I'm sure most everyone out there's played a variant of the tile game at some point. If not tiles in a school, the concrete blocks of sidewalk. "Step on the crack, break your back" or something?

It was kind of sad for Hanako because she seems to hint that she does it even when she's walking somewhere with friends (or at least, friendly acquaintances) rather than chat with them.
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Xanatos
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Re: Hanako's Bad Ending

Post by Xanatos » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:17 pm

Nyzer wrote:
Pfft...that'd probably make 66% of the world not-human, because extroverts don't tend to play the tile game, like, ever.
Even extroverts end up walking somewhere alone at some point in their lives. At least, I'd hope so.

I'm sure most everyone out there's played a variant of the tile game at some point. If not tiles in a school, the concrete blocks of sidewalk. "Step on the crack, break your back" or something?

It was kind of sad for Hanako because she seems to hint that she does it even when she's walking somewhere with friends (or at least, friendly acquaintances) rather than chat with them.
That's when I'd play it...
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Re: Hanako's Bad Ending

Post by Nyzer » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:48 pm

That's when I'd play it...
And thus, introvert.

I expect I've done the same here and there over the years.
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cpl_crud
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Re: Hanako's Bad Ending

Post by cpl_crud » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:47 am

YourFavAnon wrote:A little question for you, Crud. I'm not saying tell me what you believe would be canon in your mind and such, but just kind of answer based on what you think would happen.

Let's say that after high school, per usual, a relationship between Hanako and most of her friends ends simply because of moving on in life. As she extends further into her future and ages, do you think she would honestly change much? I mean, there are people who after their final years of schooling who change drastically and ones who don't change at all. Do you think she'd be one of those people who, while keeping old habits such as stuttering, would change a bit in terms of personality? Such as being a bit more open, while not completely open, or do you think she'd sort of continue to be that shut in?

Just a question on your personal opinion, you don't have to answer if you don't want to.
Honestly, I think Hanako has the capacity for change.

Even in the few short months of her path she makes some small, yet significant, changes.

Will she stutter forever? I kind of think so, but that is because I'm mentally trained to think of her stuttering (one of these days I'd like to find out who uses more ellipses; Shizune or Hanako...).

I think everyone goes through a certain evolution, although it's not as fast as most people imagine. You watch a few drama shows and you imagine that as soon as you graduate High School or University that your whole life will change.

I don't think that's true. Puberty is when you start forming your own personal opinion of yourself, and it peaks around the time you finish High School, giving you this feeling of upheaval and a desire to change. But I see that as being akin to taking the training wheels off a bike. Sure, you're away and riding, but you're still unsteady and you are probably not all that good at making the bike go where you want it to go.

Okay, so I'm barely 30, so I can't really talk all that much. But in the last 5 years I've come to realise a lot of things about myself (e.g. just how much of an arse I was) and I've been able to alter (or have had altered by other people) parts of my personality.


Hanako will more than likely go through the same process, although in a massively different way. I see her getting over the emotional and hormonal upheaval of puberty at about 25. Until that time I would think she would grow on a similar trajectory as she does in her path; slow, incremental "socialisation".

But, once she starts working out how to control herself and her emotions, she'll probably start thinking about the future and then working towards that. I've speculated in Runner's Afternoon that by the time she is about 30 that she will be a self-sufficient person. By that time she will have had enough exposure to the outside world to realise that not everyone is going to judge her by her scars.



I suppose I should say one thing about that though; some things don't change, but you learn to cope with them. One of the things that made my put in the anxiety attack was a similar experience that I had in relation to my own phobia (N.B. - I did not explore my own phobia much in Hanako's path, nor will I elaborate).
One thing that I have noted as I have grown older is that I have worked on various coping methods, and 95% of the time I don't even contemplate my fears. However, when presented with said phobia, I still practically shit myself. So I think that, deep down inside Adult Hanako, there will still be certain aversions. I also think that she would be a freaking excellent mum.
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Re: Hanako's Bad Ending

Post by YourFavAnon » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:29 am

cpl_crud wrote:-snip-
This is actually the kind of response I was looking for. I'm going to be honest; the idea that everything and everyone immediately changes after high school is some major bullshit. I've known people who have stayed the exact same after graduation. But, as you sort of said, once those people began to age a bit, more towards their mid twenties and early thirties, they changed in a lot of ways. I'll use my father for an example. Out of high school, he was a guy with no college degree and went straight to the work force. Eventually, picked up a drinking problem that resulted in him at the bar every night from his early twenties to the time he was 38. It may have taken him a longer period of time to realize this than some, but everyone has their little moment of realization at some point in their life. His happened to be when my brother was being born before me, and it was that he needed to grow up and be prepared for his first child.

That being said, I sort of image Hanako to be in the same sort of boat, but with her self-consciousness of her scars and such. I feel like when she would go and hit a certain point in her adulthood, there would be that sort of realization (as you pointed out) where she understands that not everyone is going to just stare at her scars and judge her based on it. Some still will, sure, but that's to be expected. I also agree with you that she would be an absolutely amazing mother. I feel that when she would have that first child that she would just be sort of sitting there, amazed at what she has before her. She is slightly immature, at least that's how I see her, but that's not in the sense that she's childish, just underdeveloped socially. I feel like with that playing into her life, her reaction to holding her child for the very first time would be that sort of Kodak moment on her life.

Thanks for taking the time to respond anyways, I really do appreciate it.
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Re: Hanako's Bad Ending

Post by Pyramid Head » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:19 pm

I've been there.
It was actually damn near a weekly occurrence until i was 16. How my mom reached her current age when she relatively recently calmed down thanks to antidepressants is frankly baffling in hindsight. But yeah, everyone needs a place to keep their stuff where they can catch a breather after putting up with those pesky fuckers called people, and it's hard to not snap when people can't respect the place for your stuff.
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Re: Hanako's Bad Ending

Post by Walrusfella » Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:28 pm

cpl_crud wrote:I think everyone goes through a certain evolution, although it's not as fast as most people imagine. You watch a few drama shows and you imagine that as soon as you graduate High School or University that your whole life will change.

I don't think that's true. Puberty is when you start forming your own personal opinion of yourself, and it peaks around the time you finish High School, giving you this feeling of upheaval and a desire to change. But I see that as being akin to taking the training wheels off a bike. Sure, you're away and riding, but you're still unsteady and you are probably not all that good at making the bike go where you want it to go.

Okay, so I'm barely 30, so I can't really talk all that much. But in the last 5 years I've come to realise a lot of things about myself (e.g. just how much of an arse I was) and I've been able to alter (or have had altered by other people) parts of my personality.

Hanako will more than likely go through the same process, although in a massively different way. I see her getting over the emotional and hormonal upheaval of puberty at about 25. Until that time I would think she would grow on a similar trajectory as she does in her path; slow, incremental "socialisation".

But, once she starts working out how to control herself and her emotions, she'll probably start thinking about the future and then working towards that. I've speculated in Runner's Afternoon that by the time she is about 30 that she will be a self-sufficient person. By that time she will have had enough exposure to the outside world to realise that not everyone is going to judge her by her scars.
I think you're right. You'll still be the same person after high school, but I think the opportunity to slowly change is greater once you are you're the master of your own life. I'm about the same age; this has been my experience as well. I'm still the same guy, but I've had some of the rough edges ground off and I've excised some of the immaturity (or, like you said, had it excised from me). There's definitely still some work to do, probably always will be. I think Hanako would be alright after school.
cpl_crud wrote: I suppose I should say one thing about that though; some things don't change, but you learn to cope with them. One of the things that made my put in the anxiety attack was a similar experience that I had in relation to my own phobia (N.B. - I did not explore my own phobia much in Hanako's path, nor will I elaborate).
One thing that I have noted as I have grown older is that I have worked on various coping methods, and 95% of the time I don't even contemplate my fears. However, when presented with said phobia, I still practically shit myself. So I think that, deep down inside Adult Hanako, there will still be certain aversions. I also think that she would be a freaking excellent mum.
That was a very powerful and upsetting scene, and all the better for it. I thought at the time that the person who wrote it might have personally been through something like that. Thanks for your insight and your hard work on the game.
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Re: Hanako's Bad Ending

Post by sporkaganza » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:34 pm

I think Hanako's bad ending might be one of my favorite "bad endings", just because it's such a slap in the face. And that makes it strangely... refreshing, almost. Somehow I find it borderline cathartic to see Hanako getting that angry.

I'm not sure if I would make it my most favorite, because drinking on the roof with Kenji is funny and Rin's neutral ending is extremely well-done, but it's definitely in the top three.
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Re: Hanako's Bad Ending

Post by ravenlord » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:02 am

sporkaganza wrote:I think Hanako's bad ending might be one of my favorite "bad endings", just because it's such a slap in the face. And that makes it strangely... refreshing, almost. Somehow I find it borderline cathartic to see Hanako getting that angry.
I feel the same way -- that Hanako's "bad" ending may not be so bad after all is said and done.

For the other 4 bad ending, it is pretty much game over without any real hope. The other girls have completely distanced themselves from Hisao either emotionally or physically. Hanako's is the only bad ending that ends with a lot of passion and with both she and Hisao in school with a lot of time left together.

So, she finally breaks down her wall and lets Hisao know exactly what she feels and where they stand. That's actually a lot better than the neutral ending where they are still dancing on eggshells around each other. It gives them a new place to start. And there is still emotional attachment there, much like a lover's quarrel. So there is incentive for them for making up and moving onwards. Plus Lilly will soon be back in the mix. Even though Hanako is angry at her as well, Lilly has the grace and patience to work her way back. They had a fairly stable triad before Lilly's trip, and that's another plus in helping put all of the pieces back together, both friendship-wise for the three of them and romance-wise for Hanako and Hisao.

I like the fact that all 3 of Hanako's endings were shorter that the other girls', because it means there is so much more for the players to fill in for themselves afterwards. I see very few ways for Hisao to recover anything from the other 4 bad endings. But I see a lot of potential and a ton of ways for Hisao (and Lilly) fixing things with Hanako after Hanako's outburst, and making things better.

At the end of the day, her outburst in the good ending is not really all that different from the one in the bad ending. It is the revelation that two people are misunderstanding each other, and in both cases it leaves Hanako basically in a state of shock. But in both cases it finally gives Hisao enough information to make some intelligent decisions. The only question in the bad ending is if Hanako will ever give him that chance to use that new knowledge. And after seeing Hanako bounce back from her other breakdowns, I figure that he will indeed get that chance. :)
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Nyzer
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Re: Hanako's Bad Ending

Post by Nyzer » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:36 pm

Eh, her bad ending is more that Hisao is insulted and shocked by what she's thinking of him - he's turned off of her, not the reverse. So while she might "bounce back", it strongly hints he won't. He knows where he screwed up, but like I've said - her behavior was something to worry about. He deserved to get told off, but he didn't quite deserve it like that, even in the bad ending.

But, yes, I can agree - that bad ending, more than any other, leaves hope behind. I've seen worse fights in weaker friendships, and without an excellent mediator who knows both people very well - and some of those friendships have bounced back. Seen worse fights in romantic relationships, too.

Hanako blew up on him, once, because he failed to respect her wishes and her privacy, once.
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