If You Want Something Done

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Re: If You Want Something Done

Post by Guest » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:21 am

In testing what was the result of logging a permanent global state for every playthrough? How are they indexed, and does it generate bloat or loading slowdown? At 10 concurrent playthroughs? 100? 1000? 10,000? I'm curious as to how complete the QC process is.

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Juno
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Re: If You Want Something Done

Post by Juno » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:07 pm

IDK the details but it's not like you need ALL the playthroughs data in memory or in process, since there is only a single playthrough being run at any given time.

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Re: If You Want Something Done

Post by Nyu » Mon May 02, 2011 4:26 pm

Does that mean that you won't be able to change your choices when you load a game? If the ID remains the same and the global database remembers previous choices...

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Re: If You Want Something Done

Post by Totz the Plaid » Tue May 03, 2011 8:24 am

Delta, this is seriously awesome if I'm right in how I interpreted your blog post. This is actually very similar in result to the "awesome idea" I thought up over in the main public discussion forum, though the implimentation is different (though I doubt you had that in mind when you started working on this, and your work probably predated my inspiration anyway).

Just to be clear, this means I could start a readback while at the final ending to the game and just basically read through the whole thing from the very beginning to there again without having to stop and make the choices myself, right?

If so, then I don't care that I have to do a full playthrough first, I can just save at that point and revisit the various paths this way instead of the 'alternate bonus mode' I thought up! I'm seriously excited about this!
Nyu wrote:Does that mean that you won't be able to change your choices when you load a game? If the ID remains the same and the global database remembers previous choices...
If you want to try new choices you could just start a new playthrough. It's not like KS only saves one playthrough at a time anyway.
"There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace. We've got work to do." - The Doctor, Doctor Who

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Re: If You Want Something Done

Post by G3n0c1de » Tue May 03, 2011 5:22 pm

Totz the Plaid wrote:Delta, this is seriously awesome if I'm right in how I interpreted your blog post. This is actually very similar in result to the "awesome idea" I thought up over in the main public discussion forum, though the implimentation is different (though I doubt you had that in mind when you started working on this, and your work probably predated my inspiration anyway).

Just to be clear, this means I could start a readback while at the final ending to the game and just basically read through the whole thing from the very beginning to there again without having to stop and make the choices myself, right?
Well...
delta wrote:I consider the text backlog in KS a form of protagonist memory, and memory is immutable. When you roll back, you don't "roll back an interpreter", you retread what you have already seen. This implies not being able to redo choices...

... It still allowed rollback (because it is indeed a nice thing to have), but it blocked rollback after choice points, yo you could never roll back beyond a choice. That way, you could not change a choice you had previously made, and if you wanted to access the text displayed before rollback was blocked, you had readback available.
delta wrote:The method I have seen in most VNs is to show a backlog in list form that you can scroll up or down, or page through...

...(and the method described above is described as "readback" in contrast to that).
This means that you can only rollback to the last choice you made, and play the game from there. Anything beyond that is blocked, and you can only read that in readback. Readback shows a list of all the dialogue that came on the screen during the playthrough. In other words, you don't see the text and characters live in readback, only in rollback. So your "watch the game without making any choices" thing isn't possible with this implementation.
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Re: If You Want Something Done

Post by Totz the Plaid » Wed May 04, 2011 1:18 am

G3n0c1de wrote:This means that you can only rollback to the last choice you made, and play the game from there. Anything beyond that is blocked, and you can only read that in readback. Readback shows a list of all the dialogue that came on the screen during the playthrough. In other words, you don't see the text and characters live in readback, only in rollback. So your "watch the game without making any choices" thing isn't possible with this implementation.
Actually:
Delta wrote:Act 1 of KS included a custom implementation of readback of my own design. It still allowed rollback (because it is indeed a nice thing to have), but it blocked rollback after choice points, yo you could never roll back beyond a choice. That way, you could not change a choice you had previously made, and if you wanted to access the text displayed before rollback was blocked, you had readback available. I never found this completely satisfactory, because it was an obvious crutch. I felt that the version I want was full rollback without the ability to retake choices. So I went and did that.
And earlier:
Delta wrote:Ren'Py, the engine we are using, solves the problem in a different way, which is calls "rollback" (and the method described above is described as "readback" in contrast to that). Rollback lets you "roll back" the whole interpreter state to a previous point. This is definitely the technically superior method, and a lot harder to implement, and it's one of Ren'Py's selling points. The reader can not only read the prior text, but they also get context - the whole screen, with character expressions, sounds, animation, everything.
Emphasis mine. So I still think Delta meant that we'll be able to rollback and review the entire thing, just not being able to retake the choices and being stuck on the path we chose (which is close to what I was going for in my idea anyway).
"There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace. We've got work to do." - The Doctor, Doctor Who

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Re: If You Want Something Done

Post by Aura » Wed May 04, 2011 2:17 am

Nyu wrote:Does that mean that you won't be able to change your choices when you load a game? If the ID remains the same and the global database remembers previous choices...
I'm guessing you mean the common VN playing strategy of saving before choice points? You can choose differently upon loading a game, retaking choices already made in a given playthrough is the only thing that's blocked.
Totz the Plaid wrote:we'll be able to rollback and review the entire thing, just not being able to retake the choices and being stuck on the path we chose.
Currently you can't roll back past the Act titlecards. Anyway, even if you could, rolling back tens of thousands of lines seems a pretty impractical thing to do.
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Re: If You Want Something Done

Post by ContinualNaba » Wed May 04, 2011 5:26 am

Just do what you think is best, Devs. We'll enjoy it all the same.

Most of us.
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Re: If You Want Something Done

Post by Totz the Plaid » Wed May 04, 2011 7:36 am

Aura wrote:
Totz the Plaid wrote:we'll be able to rollback and review the entire thing, just not being able to retake the choices and being stuck on the path we chose.
Currently you can't roll back past the Act titlecards. Anyway, even if you could, rolling back tens of thousands of lines seems a pretty impractical thing to do.
Thanks for the clarification. Still, being able to watch back individual acts via this system is a really cool bonus anyway.
ContinualNaba wrote:Just do what you think is best, Devs. We'll enjoy it all the same.

Most of us.
I hope that last bit wasn't meant to be a shot at me... I'd enjoy KS just the same even without ANY sort of 'readback' or 'rollback' system, I just think it's an awesome bonus on an already kickass deal.
"There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace. We've got work to do." - The Doctor, Doctor Who

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Re: If You Want Something Done

Post by ContinualNaba » Thu May 05, 2011 1:18 am

Some people just can't be pleased, lad.
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Re: If You Want Something Done

Post by neumanproductions » Fri May 06, 2011 6:31 pm

delta wrote:Enough with the good news, here's some stuff you don't care about.
Oh my god you're right, it is something I don't care about.
Okay, maybe I care about it a little bit.

And simply yes, the strategy of saving before every choice is the simplest and most useful of any VN strategy.
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