Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

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YZQ
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by YZQ » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:53 am

Sometimes, you just have to stand up for yourself and be counted.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Mindfeeder » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:22 pm

muliebrity wrote:
Dream wrote:(...) one would be astonished at the idea that Hanako didn't actually want to have sex with him, since she took him to her room, asked him to close the door/windows (thus giving off a message of the kind of action she desired to do) and stripped before him, while waiting for him to come over.
That seemed to be Hisao's interpretation, and I think it's safe to say his interpretation was wrong.
Exactly. When I was playing that part, I didn't jump to the conclusion that Hanako wanted sex with him. Her closing the shades and telling Hisao to lock the door felt to me as if she just wanted to make sure that ONLY Hisao will ever see all of the scars on her body. Being the girl who always tries to hide every inch of her burnt skin, I figured that this time she wanted to be a 100% sure that Hisao, and Hisao only, would see it. That moment was so intimate, so private, so overwhelmingly special that the thought of sex was extreeeeeemely far away – so of course I got pretty mad at Hisao who (in my opinion) ruined the whole thing. He should have just kissed her deeply, revealing her face completely, caressing it, and being overall gentle!

I mean... this is the first time they are EVER getting physically close to each other! Hisao KNOWS that Hanako's a person you really have to be careful around. So it didn't make any sense at all that he's so unsubtle all of a sudden.

Of course, it does make sense when Hanako, later in the park, reveals what she wanted all along. But still... the story could have worked with Hisao being gentle and talking to her about everything. Of course it wouldn't have been half as "tragic" as it turned out to be – but then again the story could have gone on for MUCH longer, getting into more detail about their relationship and everything.

As you can see: I'm still half-enthused, half-indignant of the whole thing.

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Dream » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:41 pm

Read the park/good-end scene again.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by pandaphil » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:30 pm

We could all complain about his technique, but really, if he hadn't done it, or just kissed and talked, Hanako would have likely been resentful and hurt, thinking that he was turned off by her looks and couldn't desire her as a woman.

As much as it hurt her physically (and she'd been through much worse) its something she needed to know.


One thing i've been thinking about lately is would Hanako's story have been any different if Lilly had been around?
Last edited by pandaphil on Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by muliebrity » Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:38 am

Dream wrote:Read the park/good-end scene again.
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I should have done that before I argued with you. She does in fact say "I thought if I let you do that...". Bah, stupid teenager making stupid teenager decisions.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Dream » Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:41 pm

@Pandaphil: The events of Act 4 would have certainly developed differently if Lilly was around, whether the change would be for the best or worst and how exactly it would unfold i can't really say though. I still don't know Lilly too much since i haven't played her route.

@Muliebrity: To be fair, i myself didn't realize Hanako said that in that scene until someone (i think Guest Poster or Oddball) pointed it out.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Greycat » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:34 pm

I mean... this is the first time they are EVER getting physically close to each other! Hisao KNOWS that Hanako's a person you really have to be careful around. So it didn't make any sense at all that he's so unsubtle all of a sudden.
Exactly. I found it really sudden that Hisao decided to make a move that was as crucial as having sex. Especially with someone of such delicate personality. He basically raped her, but it was excused by the fact that she "possibly wanted it.". A lot of the victims of rape freeze during the validation, so it seems as they "want it", while in fact, they can't move from shock. I remember I was really curious to the fact "when will they have those H-scenes, if she's so "hard" to communicate with, let alone having something so intimate as sex!".
I think it's the reason I haven't enjoyed Hanako's arc almost at all, I wanted to go for her in my first play, ended up with Emi, which is my favourite now, but then I played Hanako and... Man, just, there is some potential that wasn't either fulfilled or clearly pointed out in the story.

(inb4 hate: sorry for my grammar, I can't focus clearly because my neck hurts bad, rubbish excuse, I know)

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by pandaphil » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:24 pm

Greycat wrote:
I mean... this is the first time they are EVER getting physically close to each other! Hisao KNOWS that Hanako's a person you really have to be careful around. So it didn't make any sense at all that he's so unsubtle all of a sudden.
Exactly. I found it really sudden that Hisao decided to make a move that was as crucial as having sex. Especially with someone of such delicate personality. He basically raped her, but it was excused by the fact that she "possibly wanted it.". A lot of the victims of rape freeze during the validation, so it seems as they "want it", while in fact, they can't move from shock. I remember I was really curious to the fact "when will they have those H-scenes, if she's so "hard" to communicate with, let alone having something so intimate as sex!".
I think it's the reason I haven't enjoyed Hanako's arc almost at all, I wanted to go for her in my first play, ended up with Emi, which is my favourite now, but then I played Hanako and... Man, just, there is some potential that wasn't either fulfilled or clearly pointed out in the story.

(inb4 hate: sorry for my grammar, I can't focus clearly because my neck hurts bad, rubbish excuse, I know)

Seems like this discussion has popped up a lot here on the board.

I'm really sad that you don't like her story, as she's still my favorite girl.

To be fair to Hisao, they do make him slightly different in each arc. In this one he was just a horny teenager. And while I'm not particularly happy about it, at least by the end of the arc he realizes what he did was probably wrong, but they both deserve some of the blame, learn to accept what happened and move on.

I guess the writers needed to make the point that first time sex isn't always going to be all flowers and romance.
Last edited by pandaphil on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by YZQ » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:59 am

Sex as rite of passage, which should NOT be the case.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Omega » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:37 am

I have to admit, when I got to the scenes after and started talking to Hanako again I was actually mouthing to myself... "Did I... Did I rape her?"
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Hisao&Hanako<3 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:30 am

I choose to think of the whole thing this way... Hisao and Hanako were both repressing feelings for each other, and everything just came to a climax then. That's how I like to interpret it.

I'd like to see any man on this forum who, if a woman strips practically naked before you, you wouldn't be tempted to have sex with her! Come on, why be so hard on Hisao? He didn't have any moral obligations that would cause him to hesitate and avoid giving in to temptation, so, overcome by emotions and being turned on by the whole thing, he has sex with the girl he loves. That's how I see it.

Consider his thoughts during the whole experience. He carefully considers her reactions and tries to shift their positioning so it doesn't hurt her as much. He really cares how she feels and dislikes the fact that she's in pain. I think if it were more of a rape thing, he'd just have continued any way he pleased and wouldn't have cared that it hurt her.

Come to think of it, many guys wouldn't care if a girl hurts during sex. They'd just keep going and expect her to get used to it.

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by pandaphil » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:59 am

Hisao&Hanako<3 wrote:I choose to think of the whole thing this way... Hisao and Hanako were both repressing feelings for each other, and everything just came to a climax then. That's how I like to interpret it.

I'd like to see any man on this forum who, if a woman strips practically naked before you, you wouldn't be tempted to have sex with her! Come on, why be so hard on Hisao? He didn't have any moral obligations that would cause him to hesitate and avoid giving in to temptation, so, overcome by emotions and being turned on by the whole thing, he has sex with the girl he loves. That's how I see it.

Consider his thoughts during the whole experience. He carefully considers her reactions and tries to shift their positioning so it doesn't hurt her as much. He really cares how she feels and dislikes the fact that she's in pain. I think if it were more of a rape thing, he'd just have continued any way he pleased and wouldn't have cared that it hurt her.

Come to think of it, many guys wouldn't care if a girl hurts during sex. They'd just keep going and expect her to get used to it.
I hope I'm not being Captain Obvious again here, but...

I think the reason most of us hate that scene so much is because those of us who are attracted to Hananko tend to be more sensitive. Seeing a girl who's been hurt her entire life being hurt yet again just grates on our sense of justice.

Having thought about it a lot though, I think I can see where the dev was going. There are a lot of girls out there with low self-esteem who think that sex is the only thing they have to offer someone in a relationship. That's what goes through the heads of a lot of so-called 'sluts' in the world. They think that their bodies are all they have going for them and act accordingly.

So as much as that scene hurt me on a personal level, I can understand the point the writer was trying to make. The last thing they want is to make such a scene seem sweet or romantic.
Last edited by pandaphil on Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:27 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Hisao&Hanako<3 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:06 am

Yes, and I as a huge Hanako fan can see it. Like I said before, both Hisao and Hanako were greatly repressing feelings for each other, and it all came to a head then.

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Guest Poster » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:57 am

To those who suggest Hanako stripping naked was merely a platonic gesture to show off her scars...why would Hanako do that when the very problem she was hoping to fix was the very fact that her relationship with Hisao was still platonic even though she wanted it to be more than that? If you were stuck in someone's friend zone and eager to get out of it, an action like stripping would NOT be completely platonic in your mind. Premature sex would be preferable to never being more than "just a friend".

Hanako herself says during the park scene that she thought Hisao was looking for a girlfriend and was at the same time dismissing her as potential girlfriend material because he saw her like a little sister of some kind...someone to worry over, protect, even love emotionally, but someone who's physically off-limits. Hanako wanted to show Hisao she was NOT too fragile for the physical aspect of a relationship. Hanako's act was one of desperation...she thought Hisao was drifting away from her and this was a last-ditch effort to keep him close.

To those who wanted the H-scene to be more tender...it wasn't that kind of scene. Both Hisao and Hanako weren't emotionally ready for sex during their first time. They weren't a couple at the time. They hadn't confessed. Hisao was still sorting out his feelings when Hanako took him to her room. So of course the act was entirely physical. Why pretend they were a loving couple when there was still such an emotional wall between them and they weren't a couple?
Exactly. I found it really sudden that Hisao decided to make a move that was as crucial as having sex. Especially with someone of such delicate personality. He basically raped her, but it was excused by the fact that she "possibly wanted it.". A lot of the victims of rape freeze during the validation, so it seems as they "want it", while in fact, they can't move from shock. I remember I was really curious to the fact "when will they have those H-scenes, if she's so "hard" to communicate with, let alone having something so intimate as sex!".
I think it's the reason I haven't enjoyed Hanako's arc almost at all, I wanted to go for her in my first play, ended up with Emi, which is my favourite now, but then I played Hanako and... Man, just, there is some potential that wasn't either fulfilled or clearly pointed out in the story.
Even though it's painful, read the scene again. Carefully and word for word. Hanako didn't freeze. We know what it looks like when she freezes because it happened in class during her panic attack. She wasn't shocked either. We know what that looks like because that happened when Hisao said he was going to open his blouse to show her his scar. She gave consent.

It wasn't rape and it wasn't excused by the fact that she "possibly wanted it". At several points during the scene, Hisao waits for a sign of consent on Hanako's part before moving to the next stage and she gives consent at least three times during the course of the scene. (that's more often than any other girl) It's not rape if both sides want it, regardless of the underlying motivations and both sides did want it.

I agree with what Pandaphil said. Many people who were drawn to Hanako came in with certain and very specific expectations about how a shy and fragile character like her should be handled. The expectations usually connected to such a character are along the lines of: handle the character with silk gloves, don't do anything that could possibly hurt her, hold her, hug her, comfort her, tell her everything will be alright and that her pains are behind her now and then make tender, romantic and heavenly love to her so she can forget about the painful past and find blissful solace in the player's arms. That didn't happen. There wasn't even a second H-scene involving heavenly Hollywood sex afterwards to compensate for that trainwreck of a first time, so players who expected KS to play by the established VN rules felt cheated. Despite the fact that first times are often awkward, painful, messy and yes...sometimes too early. But that's a problem on behalf of those players.

Ironically, Hanako's "seduction" ended up having the intended effect in a very roundabout way. By creating an extremely necessary crisis in their disfunctional relationship that threatened their very friendship, both Hisao and Hanako were forced to come clean about their intentions and feelings in a way they wouldn't have done under normal circumstances. Their awkward first time essentially destroyed their shaky friendship and allowed them to start over with a clean slate. This wouldn't have happened if their first time hadn't been such an epic fail.

So yeah, it wasn't rape and Hanako was definitely seducing Hisao in her own misguided and disfunctional way.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Dream » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:25 pm

^ Great post.
Ironically, Hanako's "seduction" ended up having the intended effect in a very roundabout way. By creating an extremely necessary crisis in their disfunctional relationship that threatened their very friendship, both Hisao and Hanako were forced to come clean about their intentions and feelings in a way they wouldn't have done under normal circumstances. Their awkward first time essentially destroyed their shaky friendship and allowed them to start over with a clean slate. This wouldn't have happened if their first time hadn't been such an epic fail.
I agree that things ended up being for the best (things could have easily ended up way worse) but i wouldn't be so sure if Hanako's sex scene was the only way she could have taken both her and Hisao from the status quo their relationship got to in that point, at least that's the impression i got from this paragraph. Sorry if what i wrote doesn't make sense.
"It is not reason, more or less furnished, but will that makes the world march"

"Unfortunately, if you can think of something really stupid, someone out there probably believes it." -Xanatos

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