Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by pandaphil » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:51 pm

Mindfeeder wrote:
pandaphil wrote:And thanks again! I already have a couple of short pieces in the Fanfic topic. Look under "Hanako/Hisao Mini-Fics".
Have you thought about converting your fanfics (especially "Sisterhood", of course!) into a game using Ren'py? That would absolutely rule!
I'd play Sisterhood in a second if there was ever a chance it would be produced.

If it helps though, look around the last couple pages of the Sisterhood thread. I believe the author posted a list of musical ques. Just use your imagination to provide the visuals and you're good. :)
Last edited by pandaphil on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by muliebrity » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:31 pm

pandaphil wrote:@Mindfeeder: Run, don't walk to the Fanfic topic and read "Sisterhood". Its everything you want, and more than makes up for their unpleasant first time.


At this point I've just learned to accept Hanako's scene for what it was. Two very nervous teenagers who didn't really know what they were doing at the time. I think even Hisao feels some regret about it in the long run.

But you're right though, it does grate a bit, simply because from Emi and Lilly's routes, we know Hisao has it in him to be kind and gentle.
This pretty much sums it up. Hisao is a teenager, he's acting on impulse. He should have communicated more, but he didn't do what he did maliciously. I agree that it borders on date rape if looked at from a very judgmental perspective, but the boy wasn't thinking straight. Think about how his thoughts were moving just before the event: Hisao got very wrapped up in the fact that Hanako wanted him to lock the door and that she closed the blinds, and his mind started jumping to conclusions because he was horny. The whole thing was a giant misstep, and it's not something a mature adult should do, but they're not mature adults! Hisao was letting his obsession with Hanako control his thoughts, and Hanako was scared and desperate, they did what teenagers do. No it wasn't a series of good, romantic choices, but why should it be? They were both a bundle of conflicting and overpowering emotions.

That said, I would have liked to see a bit more meat on the bones of this particular story, and a little more context to the sex scene would have made it better, but I don't think it's fair to judge Hisao as something he's not.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by pandaphil » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:37 pm

muliebrity wrote: This pretty much sums it up. Hisao is a teenager, he's acting on impulse. He should have communicated more, but he didn't do what he did maliciously. I agree that it borders on date rape if looked at from a very judgmental perspective, but the boy wasn't thinking straight. Think about how his thoughts were moving just before the event: Hisao got very wrapped up in the fact that Hanako wanted him to lock the door and that she closed the blinds, and his mind started jumping to conclusions because he was horny. The whole thing was a giant misstep, and it's not something a mature adult should do, but they're not mature adults! Hisao was letting his obsession with Hanako control his thoughts, and Hanako was scared and desperate, they did what teenagers do. No it wasn't a series of good, romantic choices, but why should it be? They were both a bundle of conflicting and overpowering emotions.

That said, I would have liked to see a bit more meat on the bones of this particular story, and a little more context to the sex scene would have made it better, but I don't think it's fair to judge Hisao as something he's not.
Well said sir. Hormones can bring out the worst in all of us. Protip: Teenagers do stupid shit. :)

I'm just glad they were able to get past it without any resentment or anger.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Mindfeeder » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:45 pm

pandaphil wrote:I'm just glad they were able to get past it without any resentment or anger.
Absolutely. I remember being a bit angry while seeing the two large artworks for the ending of the Hanako arc (the one in the park where she's kneeling on the ground, Hisao embracing her from behind and the one at the very end when she's kissing him in public) for the first time. As of now, after reading the ending three times, they are among my absolute favourite artworks from the game (together with the artwork of Hanako playing pool billiard and some artworks from the Emi route). :) Only when I fully understood the ending in all its details could I appreciate those completely. :)

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by muliebrity » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:47 pm

pandaphil wrote:Well said sir. Hormones can bring out the worst in all of us. Protip: Teenagers do stupid shit. :)

I'm just glad they were able to get past it without any resentment or anger.
Thank you! And yes, yes they do. I sort of did something similar to what Hisao did as a teenager, even (not proud of it, and I wouldn't have known if my newly found girlfriend at the time hadn't talked to me and told me that she felt I had rushed things a bit too much; live and learn, eh?). Their feelings are genuine, and that's sort of the point. In a way, that's more romantic than Lilly's route ever was, because their genuine love for each other overcame that awkward first encounter.

@Mindfeeder
I think we all know which Emi CGs you're thinking of *nudge nudge wink wink*

Seriously, Hanako had some of the best CGs in the game. The different artist communicated a completely different side to her just through body language, which is very impressive.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Dream » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:12 am

Man the discussion on Hanako's sex scene has me face-palming as much as it usually does. The conversation of Hisao and hormones is as frustrating as it is hilarious.

Sometimes it feels as if i'm one of the few people who were actually paying attention during that scene instead of jumping to conclusions.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by muliebrity » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:22 am

Could you explain exactly what others are missing, Dream?
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Dream » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:59 am

muliebrity wrote:Could you explain exactly what others are missing, Dream?
Would love to but i have to leave right now for pressing matters. Will do once i'm back.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by pandaphil » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:50 pm

Dream wrote:
muliebrity wrote:Could you explain exactly what others are missing, Dream?
Would love to but i have to leave right now for pressing matters. Will do once i'm back.


I'm always up for new insights.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Dream » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:23 am

Hey guys, sorry it took so long.

Ok, to sum up some of the previous talking points: It was said that Hisao is a teenager and that in that moment acted out of impulse and hormones/horniness. He got rather nervous when he realized the significance of what Hanako was doing (you can read how shocked he is when Hanako asks him to close the door) to the point he could not think straight nor pay much attention to Hanako's feelings and state. There was even talk of Hisao having a certain obsession for Hanako and Hanako feeling desperate/lonely.

To be fair, this assesment is far from completely wrong, and there a few points here and there that i do agree with. However, there are some things this assesment gets monumentally wrong: While Hisao was certainly nervous, he didn't get to the point where he wasn't thinking straight or paying much attention to Hanako, and i feel you can certainly notice that in his inner narration during the scene. And i don't think you can say he was strongly influenced by hormones either, granted he is a teenager, but i don't think all teenagers are exactly fuckbunnies. Hisao has his mind pretty clear and he is very much in the moment, it is true that the sex scene with Hanako wasn't exactly cheery or overly pleasant, but such a strong intimacy with a woman with such painful experiences simply isn't going to be (at least not the first time) i think Hisao realized that, and that's why he decided to comply with Hanako's wish instead of just leaving or taking things to something other than sex, which i think is what he wanted to do going by some of the narration.

Was sexing her a stupid or reprehensible thing to do on Hisao's part? opinions vary a lot on this matter, and they likely always will. Personally, for me to classify an act as stupid or reprehensible, there has to be a realistic margin of action that the subject could have taken differently, and there has to be a realistic reasoning to believe he could or should have known better. Taking into consideration Hisao's character, the situation and dynamic among them (not just talking about the sex scene) and what Hisao knew about Hanako up to that point, i cannot say Hisao fits either of those criteria. If one never knew about the park scene and Hanako's confession, i think one would be astonished at the idea that Hanako didn't actually want to have sex with him, since she took him to her room, asked him to close the door/windows (thus giving off a message of the kind of action she desired to do) and stripped before him, while waiting for him to come over. If she wasn't so shy, she would have likely walked up to him and kissed him. Personally, i seriously thought Hanako wanted to have physical intimacy with Hisao, because everything in that scene was set by Hanako to give that impression.

There is one person who probably had a margin of action, and (probably) a way to re-consider how much of a good idea the whole thing was: Hanako. Granted she is in many ways a troubled teenager and i would like to stress that i don't really lay any blame on her for what happened, but analyzing the situation i feel that she had the most power/call at the time, and thus the most responsibility. I think, i wish she wouldn't have forced things towards such a situation (or lie to someone to push some intimacy with them, even if it is for kind intentions) since it could have very easily ruined things between them.

In the end, it's just a very unfortunate event, and you're really made to realize how much they don't know about the other. But it probably couldn't have been solved in a better way. There's probably not anything else Hisao could have done (leaving or trying to dissuade her from sex would have been a very bad idea, and he simply wouldn't have thought that Hanako might be concealing her motives, at least not with the constant signs of consent and the fact this is one of the rare moments she's taking lead) and Hanako decided to not tell Hisao the real reason for why she's doing this and set things in such a way that he would find himself "forced" into some sort of intimacy with her.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by pandaphil » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:23 am

That was really well thought out and written, and I can't say I find much there to argue with. Thank you so much.

Thinking about it, I have to agree. No one was really at fault here. It was just an unfortunate and I no longer really blame anyone. I guess the problem is, a lot of us are the classic romantic types who like to think of that first time as something special. Shes been hurt enough in her life and she deserves at least some happiness. That she'd be willing to put herself through what to her must have been an unpleasant experience just to gain some portion of happiness is just very upsetting. But I guess really she's been through much worse in her life.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by muliebrity » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:59 am

Dream wrote:Ok, to sum up some of the previous talking points: It was said that Hisao is a teenager and that in that moment acted out of impulse and hormones/horniness. He got rather nervous when he realized the significance of what Hanako was doing (you can read how shocked he is when Hanako asks him to close the door) to the point he could not think straight nor pay much attention to Hanako's feelings and state. There was even talk of Hisao having a certain obsession for Hanako and Hanako feeling desperate/lonely.
Since I said a lot of that myself, I think I need to point out a nuance in my argument that you missed. I wasn't saying that Hisao realized the significance of what Hanako was doing. Rather, I am saying that he misunderstood and jumped to conclusions. In her desperation (and I base the idea that she was desperate on her own words post facto), Hanako accepted his advances, but not necessarily because that's what she really wanted in the first place.
Hisao has his mind pretty clear and he is very much in the moment, it is true that the sex scene with Hanako wasn't exactly cheery or overly pleasant, but such a strong intimacy with a woman with such painful experiences simply isn't going to be (at least not the first time) i think Hisao realized that, and that's why he decided to comply with Hanako's wish instead of just leaving or taking things to something other than sex, which i think is what he wanted to do going by some of the narration.
The previous paragraph responds to the first part of this quote, I feel you misunderstood my points; I didn't think HIsao's thinking was muddled, I think he was misjudging the situation unintentionally. That's another point of disagreement: I don't think what transpired was Hanako's wish. She actually said her wish was to be "seen" as something other than a fragile girl in need of protection, that doesn't translate to sex.
Taking into consideration Hisao's character, the situation and dynamic among them (not just talking about the sex scene) and what Hisao knew about Hanako up to that point, i cannot say Hisao fits either of those criteria. If one never knew about the park scene and Hanako's confession, i think one would be astonished at the idea that Hanako didn't actually want to have sex with him, since she took him to her room, asked him to close the door/windows (thus giving off a message of the kind of action she desired to do) and stripped before him, while waiting for him to come over.
That seemed to be Hisao's interpretation, and I think it's safe to say his interpretation was wrong.
If she wasn't so shy, she would have likely walked up to him and kissed him.
If indeed that's what she wanted! She's not a teenage boy, she wouldn't necessarily know that he would draw those conclusions.
Personally, i seriously thought Hanako wanted to have physical intimacy with Hisao, because everything in that scene was set by Hanako to give that impression.
But she wasn't necessarily expecting that.
There is one person who probably had a margin of action, and (probably) a way to re-consider how much of a good idea the whole thing was: Hanako.
I really disagree with this, Hanako didn't take Hisao's clothes off without saying a word, he did, and as such he is responsible for the actions he took.
In the end, it's just a very unfortunate event, and you're really made to realize how much they don't know about the other.
Absolutely, from a story perspective, it was perfect. It was something stories like this rarely are: realistic.
But it probably couldn't have been solved in a better way. There's probably not anything else Hisao could have done (leaving or trying to dissuade her from sex would have been a very bad idea, and he simply wouldn't have thought that Hanako might be concealing her motives, at least not with the constant signs of consent and the fact this is one of the rare moments she's taking lead) and Hanako decided to not tell Hisao the real reason for why she's doing this and set things in such a way that he would find himself "forced" into some sort of intimacy with her.
Well, I think Hisao could have said something, or he could have held off on disrobing until he got some kind of consent, as it is he was as guilty of putting pressure on her as she was of putting pressure on him.

I agree with pandaphil on this, and I never really "blamed" anyone, per se, I only see fault in both their choices. They shouldn't have done what they did the way that they did, but given the characters and their motivations, that's what they would do. Story-wise, the scene was perfect. Stories would be boring if everyone acted in the interests of unimpeachable ethics.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by pandaphil » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:15 am

Well I did it. I forced myself to watch a Let's Play of Hanako's bad ending and I managed to survive. I see now why people say it wasn't so bad. Hisao was a condescending jerk to her during that scene in his room, and got just what he deserved. I ended up feeling better that I got the good ending.

The only part I didn't care for is that she hates Lilly too. That was heartbreaking, especially since she tried to warn Hisao to back off.

But anyway, I've survived with my soul mostly intact. So I guess that's something. :)
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by YZQ » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:35 am

pandaphil wrote:Well I did it. I forced myself to watch a Let's Play of Hanako's bad ending and I managed to survive. I see now why people say it wasn't so bad. Hisao was a condescending jerk to her during that scene in his room, and got just what he deserved. I ended up feeling better that I got the good ending.

The only part I didn't care for is that she hates Lilly too. That was heartbreaking, especially since she tried to warn Hisao to back off.

But anyway, I've survived with my soul mostly intact. So I guess that's something. :)
At that point in her rant, you should already have guessed that she did not mean what she said throughout the tirade. Bonus points for her sad face before closing the door.

Time for some cards to be laid on the table.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by pandaphil » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:36 am

YZQ wrote:
At that point in her rant, you should already have guessed that she did not mean what she said throughout the tirade. Bonus points for her sad face before closing the door.

Time for some cards to be laid on the table.
I suppose you're right. If there can be continuation fics of the good ending, there can be ones for the bad ending as well. I tend to concentrate too much on the tragic moments I guess.

I don't suppose anyone's written a fic where they become friends again?

But in the end, as I said, I don't blame her a bit for going off on him.
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