Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

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Candlehawk
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Candlehawk » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:42 pm

Here is what I believe: Her stripping down was uncharacteristic of her. While I believe her being harder to "crack open" was perfect for her, I believe that either Hisao should not have actually had sex with her(not saying that she should not have had sex with him at all, rather that it should have happened when they were a couple, as it seems very uncharacteristic of Hanako to actually have been fully ok with Hisao to have sex with her. If she couldn't say 'no' due to fright, then she should have gone catatonic therefore, there should have been a choice to push forward or not, catatonic rape leading to a bad ending), that the kiss scene should have came first or both. I loved the idea of her kissing him with a group in sight would have been a better ending. However, I still love this story. I must say that I have in the paths I have chosen so far I have been a touch angry at what Hisao did, as it did not fit at all what I would have done. However, this also is part of the visual novel, getting inside another person's point of view rather that you yourself are thrown in this situation. I still do wish that there was a bit more to your relationship with Hanako entering the romantic before the sex scene. I still find it a sweet story, if perhaps I feel a bit hardened against Hisao for what he forced her into. And megiddo, in my opinion, Hanako did not seduce Hisao. She trusted him to the point that she was ok with him viewing her naked body, for the purpose of her showing herself fully exposed, scar and all. I do understand that she wanted him to see her as something other than to be protected, but there were more "Hanako" ways of getting that done. If anything the fact that her motive for her stripping down was to have Hisao view her in a romantic/sexual light is the most that puts me off about the author's possible rush in this arc and the least like the character. Hisao took advantage of her exposed state. The thing that pisses me the most off is that he does not take advantage of her drunk, yet what he did is almost as bad, if not worse. He may not have taken advantage of her in an inebriated state, but did take advantage of her in an exposed one. To be honest, Hisao does seem kind of perverted, if only in the "typical teenage male" kind of way. The comments about how cute girl x is, while fine when he is not in act 3/4 (depending on the girl) is a touch jaunting to hear after he is with another girl. That combined with him peeking in places where he shouldn't (First after-dark tea scene) make me a bit thrown against him. Hell, even the first (Rin spoiler ahead) sex scene with Rin is him taking advantage of a girl in an exposed state. Rin is on the ground, rocking back and fourth, clearly broken down. What does he do after he hugs here? He goes to town fingering her. She was in no state to have any sort of sexual activity, especially after she (at the time) told him she would rather them be friends. In short I realize that Hisao is not myself, and as such has choices that he makes that are not my own. Everything which happens fits Hisao well, and most things that happen fit Hanako well(except for the above, of course). While the OP is after a fairy tale story, he should know that there is none to be found here.

Faygris
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Faygris » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:51 pm

Yeah, I thought about the same. I really love Hanako's arc, but I was also really disappointed that Hisao made her have sex with him in that very emotional scene. He usually doesn't seem so horny and indelicate, so why does he exploit Hanako's amazing revelation in this way? It just doesn't fit the picture and I don't really understand it. I would have wanted him to be understanding and supportive of her, careful and comforting, but he apparently can just think about sex like a macho idiot, only because there's a half naked girl standing in front of him. She certainly wasn't sending any sexual signals with her doing.

Well, anyway it turns out for the best in the end, but to me this scene leaves the whole Hanako arc with a little bit of a sour note.

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megiddo
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by megiddo » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:58 am

yeah, blame the author for writing hanako incorrectly.

:roll:

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darkrei
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by darkrei » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:36 am

why is everyone saying that hisao raped hanako???

seriously,this.was.not.rape!

may I remind you the definition of rape?
"Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse, which is initiated by one or more persons against another person without that person's consent"

however,hanako was the one to strip naked first.

she was clearly okay with the whole thing.
However,she didn't really wanted sex just for sex or pleasure with her loved one.
as she said herself,it was more to make sure hisao wouldn't depict her as a weak girl (I guess we can it was a way of saying "I love you" to jisao,a weird one,but I think we can see it this way...)

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Enemy |
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Enemy | » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:42 pm

In hindsight I feel Hanako's story was rather short, and the payoff was rather small. We only get to see the beginning of the relationship, unlike the other routes.

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darkrei
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by darkrei » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:20 pm

dunno,but it looked like how things should go for me....

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UsedforSecrets
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by UsedforSecrets » Sun May 06, 2012 2:54 am

k
Last edited by UsedforSecrets on Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Fretless
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Fretless » Sun May 06, 2012 5:14 pm

UsedforSecrets wrote:I don't even feel like Hanako stripped down for the sexual aspect of it. She wanted to open up to Hisao by showing him her severe scarring.. like how he took of his shirt to show her his surgery scar. She didn't even take off her pants. Then Hisao went full retarded and basically raped her.
She took off her skirt. And her bra, for god's sake. She says herself that she hoped that Hisao having sex with her would be the outcome of her actions. And even if it weren't, it wasn't rape and can't ever qualify as rape. She gives consent to Hisao several times before the two began.

Faelivri

Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Faelivri » Sat May 26, 2012 4:52 pm

Just a fast copy-paste from Youtube:

I guess I have to be the one to say it.

Guys, Hanako intended for Hisao to have sex with her. It was her idea. Not for her own pleasure, but as she explains later, it was to basically keep Hisao interested in her. Hisao isn't the only one in the wrong, as they both realize afterwards.

I seriously feel like I'm the only one reading the story, and not having a "Hisao, you motherfucker, you're hurting my waifu" hissy fit.


She love Hisao. She told him all about her past, even Lilly don't know everything. Hanako want to be with him, want Hisao to be "interested in her". And thats the reason why she do that. We can't blame her or Hisao, both made a decision. And whats happening next, your know.

BTW. My first post. Sup guys.
BTW2. Good english is good :lol:

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TheSongofRaven
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by TheSongofRaven » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:16 am

Faelivri wrote:Just a fast copy-paste from Youtube:

I guess I have to be the one to say it.

Guys, Hanako intended for Hisao to have sex with her. It was her idea. Not for her own pleasure, but as she explains later, it was to basically keep Hisao interested in her. Hisao isn't the only one in the wrong, as they both realize afterwards.

I seriously feel like I'm the only one reading the story, and not having a "Hisao, you motherfucker, you're hurting my waifu" hissy fit.


She love Hisao. She told him all about her past, even Lilly don't know everything. Hanako want to be with him, want Hisao to be "interested in her". And thats the reason why she do that. We can't blame her or Hisao, both made a decision. And whats happening next, your know.

BTW. My first post. Sup guys.
BTW2. Good english is good :lol:
Agree mate. Nowadays so many ppl call that scene is rape one. I prefer Shizune one (ye know, forcing Hisao when she tied up him on chair)
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Sapphire
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Sapphire » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:10 pm

This issue seems like it has/will come up a lot.

I feel the root of the problem lies with the lack of concrete explanation behind Hanako's actions. But, isn't that what happened through Hanako's entire arc? She plays truant to class. Hisao is confused. She makes a constant habit of saying something to the effect of "Yes...F-Friends..." throughout her arc. Hisao is confused. She hides in her room and has mood swings that would likely give the average person whiplash - over the course of days, mind. Hisao is, understandably, confused.

I feel that it is entirely in character for Hanako to not justify her actions on the spot. Moreover...Hanako is as far from stupid as possible. She is a highly intelligent character, and would never act without thinking. The scene to which many are referring, the sex scene, is, in my opinion,not rape, nor anything close.

Consider these few lines from the VN:

"Hanako's voice trembles, the shaking of her blouse giving away the fact that her hands are doing just the same." - This illustrates how hard it is for Hanako to do this, and how much thought she must have put into it before doing something so impossible difficult for her. She begins to tear up shortly after, reinforcing this point.

"I slowly walk towards her, and gently place my hands on her shoulders as she lets go of her blouse. She gasps a little; not in fright, but in simple startlement." - Emphasis on 'not in fright'. If she was going to be raped, she would be scared.

"She gives a nod without so much as glancing at me, and makes her way to the bes as I do. She walks as if her legs are wooden sticks. I'd find it amusing if I weren't doing exactly the same thing." - On one count, Hanako willingly walks over to the bed. Hisao didn't punch her in the jaw and slam her onto it. She submitted to him. And for those of you who've had the displeasure of seeing her BAD ending, you know how quickly she would have thrown Hisao out had she felt threatened, or in any way was unwilling.

Another note about the above quote: Hisao is just as nervous as Hanako. Rape doesn't occur between two people who are nervous and would be stopped by the simple indication that something has gone awry.


To sum up the spoiler tags above: Hisao doesn't threaten Hanako. He doesn't force himself upon her. Hanako is the instigator in this case. Hanako was more than okay with Hisao making love to her. Her ulterior motives were arguably questionable, but that doesn't make it rape.

The last point about Hanako and Hisao not having more time together. I do agree that I would have liked to see more of their relationship, but the story came to a satisfying and adorable conclusion where it stopped. If anything, and epilogue would be nice. Something to show us what happens to Hanako and Hisao later on in life, just to give us that feel-good emotion.

In short, my two cents are:

-Yes, Hanako is shy. Yes, it is possible that she could have been coaxed into doing things by manipulating her good nature, but I don't feel that was the case.

-After the sex scene, Hanako reveals her motives. This is how things have been with her through the entire arc; she acts, and only justifies her actions if she needs to. [Arguable point, I know. But for the scope of my above argument, it is intentionally general.]

-Hanako is a subtle character. Not in the sense that she isn't important, but rather...You have to pay attention to the subtle hints that she gives, or you won't understand her. She isn't about to tell you how she feels outright, after all.

*I also don't feel Katawa Shoujo is a dating sim. KS is much less shallow than a dating sim. Sexual scenes fit the characters - characters aren't made to conform to maximizing sex scenes.

Oh my. Quite a rant I have there.

Also, this:
Faelivri wrote:Just a fast copy-paste from Youtube:

I guess I have to be the one to say it.

Guys, Hanako intended for Hisao to have sex with her. It was her idea. Not for her own pleasure, but as she explains later, it was to basically keep Hisao interested in her. Hisao isn't the only one in the wrong, as they both realize afterwards.

I seriously feel like I'm the only one reading the story, and not having a "Hisao, you motherfucker, you're hurting my waifu" hissy fit.


She love Hisao. She told him all about her past, even Lilly don't know everything. Hanako want to be with him, want Hisao to be "interested in her". And thats the reason why she do that. We can't blame her or Hisao, both made a decision. And whats happening next, your know.
Behind my Scars - My Hanako epilogue. Work in progress.~

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Ragnar
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Ragnar » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:45 pm

I have to disagree with the OP, as I thought Hanako's arc was the best (though not perfect).

[Spoiler alert, obviously]

The whole point, imo, of Hanako's arc was getting her to open up. She's a mystery, so knowing little about her worked well, and made me want to learn more. The payoff in the end is the progress that she made, and it was significant. She went from panic attacks in class and in casual conversation to braving the city on her own. She went from feeling alone and ugly, someone her few friends needed to care for and protect out of pity, to finding someone who not only cared for her romantically but also was able to see her as an equal. I can only imagine that she had given up long ago on anyone ever finding her attractive.

It's true that Hisao didn't develop his romantic feelings until late. He, who hated being pitied himself, in turn pitied Hanako. He saw her as someone to care for, to protect, to shield from the world and keep safe. Thus he saw her more like a sister, or a child, then a romantic interest. It was quite an obstacle to overcome. It may have been frustrating for us - wanting him to fall for her and knowing the eventual outcome - but I think we have to accept that it's not our story. I also think that taking so long to finally realize his romantic feelings increased the impact of that realization.

Hanako stripping down makes sense. Hisao previously showed her his scar, showed that he too was damaged, and she felt that it was her turn to reciprocate. They already had a friendship and an emotional connection, but she wanted more. She wanted him as a boyfriend, and needed to see if he would accept her or be repulsed. If they started dating first, and then later found that he was repulsed by her scars, it would only make her loss that much worse.

The sex scene itself was not pleasant. It wasn't supposed to be. You could argue it was poorly written, since Hisao took off his clothes and sat down on the bed without so much as a tender touch or a kiss, which made it somewhat unbelievable. I certainly had a problem with this part. But looking back on it, I think you could also argue that it was intentional, to show that he was nervous and awkward, that he didn't yet know how to be tender and loving towards Hanako but still wanted her as a sexual object. Yes, there are a hundred different things that we would have done differently to make it better, to comfort her, etc, but again it's not our story.

The sex scene was meant to be unpleasant (somewhat subverting the eroge concept). We viewers were meant to be unsettled, to think "This isn't right. This isn't how it's supposed to be." It was not rape, as Hanako later says she meant for it to happen, but it is clear that she did not enjoy it. It was something she felt she had to do to to get him to view her as a girl and a romantic interest, instead of as a burn-victim and someone to protect. It is sad and misguided, even tragic, that she felt that way, and it makes the emotional impact of her story all the more powerful.

But in the end it all works out. Hanako wanted a relationship enough to break out of her shell and overcome some of her shyness. She confessed that she wanted a relationship with Hisao, wanted to have him view her as a regular girl, a girlfriend, an equal, and Hisao realized that he did. They confessed their love for each other, and became the couple that we hoped they would. Hanako had found a boyfriend despite her scars, someone who loved her for who she was. The scared, skittish girl we met at the beginning had gained enough courage to kiss her new boyfriend on a public street. And in that kiss we finally see the tenderness and love that their relationship had so far been missing. I couldn't ask for a better ending than that.

foquine
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by foquine » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:56 pm

Just posting my two cents here...
For me, Hanako not having so much of a relationship with a guy before, she's a little naive and show her scars over her entire body. From the face, to the thighs, and that is why she's standing there almost naked. Hisao misinterpreted this as an invitation for having sex which isn't completly wrong, but not it that way... She did want to show her scars to him, because she didn't want him to get apart, as she says in "Adulthood". I think that Hisao was so nervous that he just stripped as well and made love to Hanako in his way... not really knowing what he's doing. Remember that he started by sitting aside her and she sat on him. Then, he just touched her (firm.. actual quote..) breasts and put his hand down between her thighs. Her body responded as well, so they had sex together.

Nobody is to blame for this awkward scene. Hisao isn't an asshole.. not completly... Maybe just a little nervous?

Xelrog T. Apocalypse
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Xelrog T. Apocalypse » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:34 pm

While I have a couple of my own disappointments where Hanako's story is concerned, I'm afraid I share none of yours. Sorry.

I would have thought it sweeter if Hisao and Hanako had both become fairly dependent on each other, rather than Hanako's fierce yearning for independence. But that's more a matter of personal taste, I suppose.

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pandaphil
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by pandaphil » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:41 pm

I think most of us would have preferred to see Hisao had simply held her close and talked about how they felt about each other. But then it would've REALLY been a short arc. We're also thinking like rational adults, not hormonal teenagers. :)

I admit I was upset at Hisao for a good while for being so rough, and thank goodness that it all worked out in the end. But really, I can understand what the writers were going for. First time sex isn't always going to be rose petals and romance. Often, like in this case, its awkward, painful, and done for the wrong reasons. I guess that's realistic even if its not something readers want to see. But we do hope that its something they can laugh about together later.

This is one of those cases where we don't get a happy ending, but just a hopeful one. I haven't played Lilly's arc yet, but from what bits and pieces I've seen, it seems like more of a happy ending for Hanako.
"The way I see it, every life is a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don't always soften the bad things. But vice versa, the bad things don't necessarily spoil the good things or make them unimportant." ~ The Doctor.

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