Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

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Hisao&Hanako<3
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Hisao&Hanako<3 » Thu May 02, 2013 1:52 am

That's just the thing though, in an ideal situation, many still do the wrong thing. It's easy to say oh I won't kill or oh I won't steal, or I won't rape. Well, a lot of people out there do those things. This only loosely relates to Hanako's arc, but if you think about it hard enough on a given day...

It's not just what you do that's important, it's what you would do if you could. Or better yet, what you would or wouldn't do even if you could get away with it.

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by YZQ » Thu May 02, 2013 2:15 am

"No man should judge unless he asks himself in absolute honesty whether in a similar situation he might not have done the same." - Dr. Viktor Frankl, Man's Search For Meaning.
"Nothing is beneath man. Everything is permitted."

"...since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved. However, it is important above all to avoid being hated."

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by pandaphil » Fri May 03, 2013 2:04 am

Indeed. Its a matter of following your own feelings. DO what feels right to YOU.

Although I'm not religious, I've always tried to follow the Golden Rule in my personal life, and especially online.


To get back on topic, yeah, if more schoolkids had done what was right and befriended her rather than joined in to bully little Hanako, she might not be the mess she is today.
"The way I see it, every life is a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don't always soften the bad things. But vice versa, the bad things don't necessarily spoil the good things or make them unimportant." ~ The Doctor.

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Hisao&Hanako<3 » Fri May 03, 2013 2:50 am

Well, diamonds are coal under pressure. Damage tends to create strong, unique people. As they say, life is 10% what happens and 90% how you react to it.

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Guest Poster » Fri May 03, 2013 5:11 am

Indeed. Its a matter of following your own feelings. DO what feels right to YOU.

Although I'm not religious, I've always tried to follow the Golden Rule in my personal life, and especially online.


To get back on topic, yeah, if more schoolkids had done what was right and befriended her rather than joined in to bully little Hanako, she might not be the mess she is today.
Of course things get complicated if you've been taught all your life that your personal feelings are less important than the harmony within the group. Individuality and the desire to do "what is right" rather than "what is expected of you" is much more a western value.

Here's an interesting page that sheds shows a few interesting things about eastern group mentality. Specifically:
Confucianism puts a strong emphasis and following teachers, superiors, family members and elders. Love and respect are principals that were practiced more in the context of the family than in society and humanity as a whole and equality was not necessarily the goal of a just society. These ideas help explain why nepotism is so rampant, Japanese are so horrified by the way Westerners treat the elderly and the Japanese are more likely to mind their own business if they witness a great injustice being inflicted on a stranger.
One of the worst fears of a Japanese individuals is to be excluded from a group. Office workers feel obligated to do things socially with their coworkers and mothers go through great lengths to be accepted by other mothers in their neighborhood.
Going against the grain is not encouraged and being labeled as different can be a crushing insult.
Of course, bullying happens everywhere in the world, but it becomes much more severe if you teach kids from birth that their own group is never to be questioned or challenged and that the misery of people not part of their group isn't their concern.

Well, diamonds are coal under pressure. Damage tends to create strong, unique people. As they say, life is 10% what happens and 90% how you react to it.
Are you saying it was a good thing that Hanako was put through all the crap she lived through because it molded her into that adorably shy girl you see in the game? Because frankly what damage usually does is cause damage and nothing more than that. Take a look at shell-shocked war veterans. Damage creates people whose uniqueness involves having trouble functioning in everyday society, having nightmares, occasional suicidal thoughts, relationship troubles and problems concentrating. It's hardly something those people are proud of.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by YZQ » Fri May 03, 2013 6:18 am

"But for every one of the liberated prisoners, the day comes when, looking back on his (concentration) camp experiences, he can no longer understand how he endured it all. As the day of his liberation eventually came, when everything seemed to him like a beautiful dream, so also the day comes when all his camp experiences seemed to him nothing but a nightmare." - Dr. Viktor Frankl, Man's Search For Meaning.

Perhaps one day, Hanako will find her day of liberation.
"Nothing is beneath man. Everything is permitted."

"...since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved. However, it is important above all to avoid being hated."

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by pandaphil » Fri May 03, 2013 12:14 pm

Hisao&Hanako<3 wrote:Well, diamonds are coal under pressure. Damage tends to create strong, unique people. As they say, life is 10% what happens and 90% how you react to it.
Maybe. But being disfigured for life, and losing her home and parents was more than enough pressure for any child to have to deal with.

But you know, you do make a godo point. It says a lot about Hanako's strength as a person that she endured that, AND the bullying and still remain as well adjusted as she was. A lot of people might have considered suicide, or been so lost in their anger or despair that even Lilly or Hisao couldn't have reached them. Makes me think that she either had wonderful parents who instilled good values in her, or that the teachers at the orphanage really did care and went out of their way to help her. But she just doesn't remember. Or, like a lot of depressed and LSE people, simply dismisses the good memories as not that important.


Guest Poster: Informative as always. Thank you. I guess every culture has its good and bad points. I also hate how we treat our oldest citizens here. And being 'different' myself, the Asian concept of 'conform or else' makes me quite uncomfortable. Its downright horrible the way someone like Hanako was treated.

YZQ wrote:
Perhaps one day, Hanako will find her day of liberation.
Amen to that.
Last edited by pandaphil on Fri May 03, 2013 9:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"The way I see it, every life is a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don't always soften the bad things. But vice versa, the bad things don't necessarily spoil the good things or make them unimportant." ~ The Doctor.

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by YZQ » Fri May 03, 2013 8:32 pm

Heh, don't worry too much. Demographic changes in Japan mean that the population is both aging and dropping. Norms will have to change, or the country will be swept aside.
"Nothing is beneath man. Everything is permitted."

"...since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved. However, it is important above all to avoid being hated."

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Hisao&Hanako<3 » Sat May 04, 2013 1:37 am

I never said Hanako's damage is a good thing. Shall I reword it? What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. Damage is an unavoidable part of life. People will go through and suffer much. Not all to the same degree, but still... what is seen as "easy street" for you could be another's worst nightmare. Remember that.

I only handle things so easily because of my faith and upbringing... otherwise I probably would have given up long before now.

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by YZQ » Sat May 04, 2013 1:49 am

Suffering is relative. Dr. Frankl talks about it, but I don't have his book with me right now.
"Nothing is beneath man. Everything is permitted."

"...since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved. However, it is important above all to avoid being hated."

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Hisao&Hanako<3 » Mon May 06, 2013 1:50 am

So, in my current replay of Hanako's route, I'm at right after Hisao leaves the Nurse's office after bringing her there. That is such a heartwrenching moment. So many thoughts are going through my head. Then later on, when you go see her in her room, ugh... such a soul crusher. The way she's laying in bed, still dressed in school clothes with dried tears on her face. I don't know everything going through Hisao's mind, but I know that it would have been very hard at that point to hold back my real feelings for her. Run a hand through her hair, kiss her... who wouldn't want to? I think one of the biggest points I haven't made here yet would be that, were I in Hisao's shoes for Hanako's route, the overall struggle would have been with myself, resisting the urge to confess to her quickly. I think that makes for an entirely different problem. I'm a different person than Hisao. I'm more sentimental, more upfront with my feelings, and I think it would change the story drastically.

Yeah... I do a lot of thinking like this while going through the route. :)

So overall, were I in Hisao's shoes, the inner struggle with myself would be the issue, rather than "stop treating Hanako like a child and friendzoning her!" Know what I mean? The main point would be giving her enough time to get to know me and become attracted without scaring her off. :lol:

So yeah, I hope I've made my point for all those people that think Hanako's bad end is for people like me.

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Guest Poster » Mon May 06, 2013 11:41 am

Hisao&Hanako<3 wrote:So, in my current replay of Hanako's route, I'm at right after Hisao leaves the Nurse's office after bringing her there. That is such a heartwrenching moment. So many thoughts are going through my head. Then later on, when you go see her in her room, ugh... such a soul crusher. The way she's laying in bed, still dressed in school clothes with dried tears on her face. I don't know everything going through Hisao's mind, but I know that it would have been very hard at that point to hold back my real feelings for her. Run a hand through her hair, kiss her... who wouldn't want to? I think one of the biggest points I haven't made here yet would be that, were I in Hisao's shoes for Hanako's route, the overall struggle would have been with myself, resisting the urge to confess to her quickly. I think that makes for an entirely different problem. I'm a different person than Hisao. I'm more sentimental, more upfront with my feelings, and I think it would change the story drastically.

Yeah... I do a lot of thinking like this while going through the route. :)

So overall, were I in Hisao's shoes, the inner struggle with myself would be the issue, rather than "stop treating Hanako like a child and friendzoning her!" Know what I mean? The main point would be giving her enough time to get to know me and become attracted without scaring her off. :lol:

So yeah, I hope I've made my point for all those people that think Hanako's bad end is for people like me.
I dunno. Statements like these:
I don't know everything going through Hisao's mind, but I know that it would have been very hard at that point to hold back my real feelings for her. Run a hand through her hair, kiss her... who wouldn't want to? I think one of the biggest points I haven't made here yet would be that, were I in Hisao's shoes for Hanako's route, the overall struggle would have been with myself, resisting the urge to confess to her quickly.
probably merely reinforce the idea that the easiest way for a girl to win your heart is to win your pity, since these are the point you highlight as moments where your attraction flares up. In that case, the main conflict would be trying to convince Hanako, who has the tendency to jump to the worst possible conclusions about people when in doubt, that you'd still find her interesting even at moments when she doesn't appear to be in need of being comforted. Which is actually not that different from Hisao's part in his conflict.

Personally, I don't think Hisao's actions at that time were that strange. Hisao, at that time, WAS actually playing with the thought of asking her out. That's pretty clear from his dialogue with Miki earlier and his conclusion after the panic attack that now is maybe not the right time to consider a relationship does make sense. Hanako's panic button was pressed by something that seemed utterly mundane, so it's not that illogical that he would wonder if any attempts on his part to get closer wouldn't merely set off every landmine she had. The ideal moment for a confession or at least a request for a date would have been while Hanako was in a good mood and opening up during that pool game. Instead, Hisao dropped the ball there and Hanako felt like he looked down on her.
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Hisao&Hanako<3 » Mon May 06, 2013 2:46 pm

^Alright, man. I know I send a bad message sometimes when I say the things I do. But I leave out some details. Do you really think I couldn't care for someone like Hanako when she's at her worst? This is one of the only times I'll quote another human. "If you can't love me at your worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best." It's good logic, actually. Very good. It's what we as humans should all push to do.

I've had girls, real girls, lose their temper and totally flip out on me, call me bad things, hate me. Only a few but still, the case in point is valid. Did I still love them and want to be with them? Did I want to fix things up? Of course I did!

So if that's been your concern, then yes, I could love Hanako even if she was totally mad at me or acted or did something stupid. Cause the last thing I'd want to do is add to her pain, or anyone's pain, for that matter. Know what I mean? I'm not as weak and fleeting as I may seem sometimes despite my words. I'm not good with words either which may lead to sending mixed signals. Doesn't that remind you of a certain person we all love?

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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Guest Poster » Mon May 06, 2013 3:29 pm

Hisao&Hanako<3 wrote:Do you really think I couldn't care for someone like Hanako when she's at her worst? This is one of the only times I'll quote another human. "If you can't love me at your worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best." It's good logic, actually. Very good. It's what we as humans should all push to do.
Well, it's good logic, but it goes both ways. Of course you should be able to love a person you care about at their worst (though respectfully calling them on stupid or wrongful actions is also part of respecting someone genuinely), but things get weird when those are the moments where they actually catch your attraction. When you mention you took a liking to Rin the moment she broke down in tears or the sight of Hanako huddled up into a ball of misery on her bed almost drew out an urge to confess to her (rather than the traits Hanako would LIKE to be associated with), you can't help but give off the impression that you like Hanako not so much despite her crushing emotional issues, but rather because of them. (since those are the things you focus so strongly on) The whole point behind her route was to indicate that she wouldn't be happy with that.

Compare:

"I'd like to go out with you because I like playing games and hanging out with you and I think you have a really cute smile as well."

with:

"I'd like to go out with you so the next time you feel sad or depressed I will hug you and hold you and make you forget about all those terrible things that happened in your life."
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Re: Dissapointed with Hanako's Arc

Post by Hisao&Hanako<3 » Mon May 06, 2013 9:15 pm

Do you think I'd actually say the second one? No... Those years are behind me, the days of my young 20s when I tried to play hero to some people. I see Hanako's good qualities and I do like her for them. I would focus on them, but I've already said that. So what I do is come here and dump my feels to other guys talking about the same thing, while I personally wouldn't treat her like she was some helpless child. I'd treat her like a woman, like an equal, because she is. You follow me?

You keep misunderstanding me, which leads me to believe you're trying to psychoanalyze me... and doing a bad job of it at that. If you read everything I say as a whole, instead of paying attention only to certain parts, the message should become more clear.

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