Misunderstanding

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Ampersandissimo
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Re: Misunderstanding

Post by Ampersandissimo » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:09 am

Just wanted to add another note. A lot of people seem to be confusing the idea of eroticism with pornography. Just including a sex scene in any medium doesn't necessarily make it pornographic - it's just a sex scene. The question of the intent behind including the scene - or the function that the scene serves to the audience - is a better indicated of how that scene should be classified. If, alternatively, you cannot see somebody naked without believing that you're watching pornography, it probably says more about your system of beliefs, than the actual nature of what you're seeing.

That said, it's still a little early for me to say one way or another what the sex scenes in Katawa Shoujo are really going to stand in for, but I figured it was worth making the point.
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G3n0c1de
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Re: Misunderstanding

Post by G3n0c1de » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:13 am

Bowen, most of your concerns have been addressed by Caesius and others earlier in this thread. KS is unique in that while it was conceived as being an h-game, the sex scenes are not the main focus of the game. The main focus is the story, and the sex scenes will be an important part of that story. What the devs are trying to do with the h-scenes is bring them closer in line with art, rather than smut. The keyword here is that the sex scenes will be done 'tastefully.'

As for your other question, the answer would have to be yes. One of the devs likened turning off the sex scenes to skipping any of the other scenes from the game. You would miss out on just as much narrative and would be a bit or perhaps very lost when you jump back into the story.
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Lawls
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Re: Misunderstanding

Post by Lawls » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:17 am

" KS is exactly what it is, nothing more. It is the world that should be more openminded and accepting."

Aura has quite the nack for great conclusions
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bowen13
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Re: Misunderstanding

Post by bowen13 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:23 am

G3n0c1de wrote:Bowen, most of your concerns have been addressed by Caesius and others earlier in this thread. KS is unique in that while it was conceived as being an h-game, the sex scenes are not the main focus of the game. The main focus is the story, and the sex scenes will be an important part of that story. What the devs are trying to do with the h-scenes is bring them closer in line with art, rather than smut. The keyword here is that the sex scenes will be done 'tastefully.'

As for your other question, the answer would have to be yes. One of the devs likened turning off the sex scenes to skipping any of the other scenes from the game. You would miss out on just as much narrative and would be a bit or perhaps very lost when you jump back into the story.
And I understand that goal, of trying to take something normally taboo and express it in a natural, beautiful way. I just think that, both because of the inherent prejucide that surrounds VN novels and my own artistic preferences, I would have prefered they not be so vital to the game. It makes it a difficult choice for someone in my position, who wants to experience the game and yet is unsure if the content will be "sex" or "porn," according to my sensibilities.

For instance, I don't find the nudity or sexuality in Chobits offensive, and in fact think it's a beautiful expression of innocence and sexuality. But the problem is that I can't tell if something will offend me or not until I'm knee deep in it. "I'll know it when I see it" as they say. So I'm not suggesting that they remove all the sex, rather, stating my preference that they had not been an integral part in the first place.
Last edited by bowen13 on Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Misunderstanding

Post by bowen13 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:25 am

Lawls wrote:" KS is exactly what it is, nothing more. It is the world that should be more openminded and accepting."

Aura has quite the nack for great conclusions

Perhaps this is the case. I just wish we had something more than conjecture and hypothesis to go on. If we had some visual indication of how "explicit" the game is, or even if it would be hardcore or soft core, then I think it would cause a lot less controversy.

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Caesius
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Re: Misunderstanding

Post by Caesius » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:31 am

G3n0c1de wrote:Bowen, most of your concerns have been addressed by Caesius and others earlier in this thread.
Well, frankly that depends on how he feels about premarital and otherwise non-reproductive sex. This is part of what I meant by saying that depicting sex as something "sacred" would be too idealistic, though what I was getting as was more that the sex scenes should just take a natural course and not feel forced one way or the other.

I just think that, both because of the inherent prejucide that surrounds VN novels and my own artistic preferences, I would have prefered they not be so vital to the game.
Regardless of how you feel about the aforementioned premarital sex, you'd have to agree that sex is the most important and expressive act of love as well as the singular goal of lust. To simply leave out the sex would make the relationship between the characters less solid and sympathetic, in my opinion.

If we had some visual indication of how "explicit" the game is, or even if it would be hardcore or soft core, then I think it would cause a lot less controversy.
There will be uncensored penises going into uncensored vaginas, if that's what you're asking.
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Re: Misunderstanding

Post by bowen13 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:41 am

Regardless of how you feel about the aforementioned premarital sex, you'd have to agree that sex is the most important and expressive act of love as well as the singular goal of lust. To simply leave out the sex would make the relationship between the characters less solid and sympathetic, in my opinion.
Yes, I agree. However, I still think that it is possible to portray a realistic relationship without sex, least of all without showing it. This is of course, a personal and stylistic choice on my part.
There will be uncensored penises going into uncensored vaginas, if that's what you're asking.
Yep, that's pretty much what I needed to know, actually. Thanks. Clears up a lot of haziness regarding the matter for me.

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G3n0c1de
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Re: Misunderstanding

Post by G3n0c1de » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:50 am

bowen13 wrote:Yes, I agree. However, I still think that it is possible to portray a realistic relationship without sex, least of all without showing it. This is of course, a personal and stylistic choice on my part.
But wouldn't a relationship without sex feel a bit less realistic than one with it? Before you present examples of exceptions, all I'm saying is that sex is an important part of most romantic relationships.

Now the whole "not showing" bit is more acceptable. But KS aims to show all aspects of a relationship between two loving individuals.
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Caesius
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Re: Misunderstanding

Post by Caesius » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:57 am

G3n0c1de wrote:But wouldn't a relationship without sex feel a bit less realistic than one with it?
I wasn't really saying that a depiction of a relationship without sex would be less realistic, just less sympathetic than one with it. In short, my point is that any censorship or omission of the narrative of the act of sex, in whole or in part, would serve to diminish the sympathy between the reader and the characters.

Also anyone feel free to correct me if I'm using the word "sympathy" wrong.
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Ampersandissimo
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Re: Misunderstanding

Post by Ampersandissimo » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:01 am

G3n0c1de wrote: As for your other question, the answer would have to be yes. One of the devs likened turning off the sex scenes to skipping any of the other scenes from the game. You would miss out on just as much narrative and would be a bit or perhaps very lost when you jump back into the story.
At best you'd have effectively Bowdlerized your own experience of the story.
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Caesius
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Re: Misunderstanding

Post by Caesius » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:44 am

Ellume wrote:
Caesius wrote:Saying that sex should be portrayed as "sacred" is perhaps a bit too idealistic and probably not something the devs are actively shooting for, otherwise the sex scenes would feel unrealistic and restrained. You have the basic idea, though -- sex will most likely be portrayed in KS as a product of positive, healthy emotions, rather than as something horny teenagers do when they're bored.
This made me laugh just because I don't see healthy sex and horny bored teenagers as mutually exclusive.
This is a good point and I agree with you, though I was referring more to when people (not specifically teenagers) go and have sex for the hell of it rather than having sex as an integral part of a loving relationship (the "fuckbuddy" concept comes to mind). And then between those two extremes -- that is, between having sex with someone because you love them, and having sex with them because you're horny -- there's a pretty big gray area, and though someone could definitely have sex with someone they don't love, you can't really have sex with someone you love without also being horny. In fact, presumably the hornier you are, the more physically and emotionally fulfilling the sex.
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Re: Misunderstanding

Post by bowen13 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:46 am

But wouldn't a relationship without sex feel a bit less realistic than one with it? Before you present examples of exceptions, all I'm saying is that sex is an important part of most romantic relationships.

Now the whole "not showing" bit is more acceptable. But KS aims to show all aspects of a relationship between two loving individuals.
I would agree that sex is the ultimate expression of love, however, I disagree that sex needs to be present in a story to make a relationship feel realistic or sympathetic.

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Caesius
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Re: Misunderstanding

Post by Caesius » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:51 am

Again, it's not a matter of need, but a matter of degree. Depicting sex in a sympathetic way increases the reader's sympathy with the characters. That's it.
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Re: Misunderstanding

Post by bowen13 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:59 am

Caesius wrote:Again, it's not a matter of need, but a matter of degree. Depicting sex in a sympathetic way increases the reader's sympathy with the characters. That's it.
Well at this point, it depends on how you want to classify "sex." Is a hug sexual? A kiss? At what point does loving contact become sexual? I think it's a case by case basis for the most part, depends on the people and the situation. And yeah, a couple that never showed any affection or physical contact would be unrealistic and boring. And yes, characters having sex can build up the empathy (I think is the word you're looking for) one has for them. I disagree with the method though, especially because most of the times when it's done explicitly, it's done badly. A little is a lot with this kind of thing, in my opinion.

Then again, I'm complaining about the sex in an eroge game, so I suppose that makes me silly and my argument ultimately pointless, doesn't it? ^^;

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Re: Misunderstanding

Post by Caesius » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:17 am

bowen13 wrote:And yes, characters having sex can build up the empathy (I think is the word you're looking for) one has for them.
Not to turn this into a discussion of semantics, but I may mean both, in a sense.
sympathy

the fact or power of sharing the feelings of another, especially in sorrow or trouble; fellow feeling, compassion, or commiseration.
empathy

the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
There's probably a word or phrase that encompasses both of these concepts or applies them specifically to the connection one feels with the characters when reading or otherwise experiencing a narrative, but I'm stumped. Essentially what I mean by "increased sympathy" is that the reader feels stronger emotions as the characters and their relationships develop, though I think you understood that.
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