Yamaku Book Club (20191111 Two Old & Colourful Pieces)

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Mahorfeus
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Jigoro/Hideaki])

Post by Mahorfeus » Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:48 pm

Aha, sorry brythain. :oops:

I just thought I should get that out of the way since I am plainly biased against them. I'll tackle Jigoro first, then.

Of Jigoro and Hisao: My feelings on this one have softened some over the years. Here, Jigoro is somehow both more offensive and more complex than he is in the VN, which kind of threw me into a loop. The confrontation is my favorite part, with the talk on the bench going down a notch. I don't think Jigoro's being in the yakuza is very far-fetched, but despite his appearance, wealth, and demeanor, it's not something I ever imagined for him. And as I alluded to before, Jigoro is more... verbose here than I think he would be.

Feels for Jigoro: This one is more like it. It says "completed," but it seems to have ended on a massive cliffhanger, which is a damn shame. Judging by the "official" name of the story, I could guess at where it was going, but I digress. Clearly Jigoro and Shizune/Hisao haven't reconciled in this story; just the opposite, in fact. Whatever his reasons are, I think Jigoro is far too proud to stand down that easily. And of course, Mayoi is dead here. I still think that's the safe assumption, though it could be argued that Jigoro acts more like a man that was scorned than a man in despair. Though, I suppose the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Birth of a Fighter: This one was cute. I mean, besides the Jigoro getting his ass kicked thing. I could almost imagine him beefing up to the sound of "X Gon' Give It To Ya" and kicking the kid's ass. There's enough said in the story, but I wish it could have continued. Granted, I don't think that this is where Jigoro's hatred of glue-huffing sweater vest-wearing good-for-nothings comes from, but it makes for a nice story nonetheless.

Sharks and Minnows: I think it was ProfAllister that once supposed that Jigoro isn't really a huge dick to everyone - that he was testing Hisao, and that his dickish behavior was just a sincere response to Hisao's perceived rudeness. Keeping that in mind, I think it's actually consistent with this story. Jigoro is eloquent, being a man of business after all; maybe a bit too eloquent in my opinion. I do generally like the "I don't like you but you can marry my daughter" approach to things.

A Bear Discovers Fire: I actually missed that this was an excerpt from his autobiography, somehow. And speaking of businesslike... :P At any rate, I feel like I am missing some crucial context here. But speaking of Jigoro, his thoughts are very ordered, very structured. Hardly what I would expect from him, but if we presume that this is the "real" Jigoro, then a lot of things can be thrown into doubt.
"A very small degree of hope is sufficient to cause the birth of love." -Stendhal
The verdict is (finally) in:
Hanako > Rin > Emi > Lilly = Shizune

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Jigoro/Hideaki])

Post by brythain » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:08 am

Mahorfeus wrote:I'll tackle Jigoro first, then...
[interesting comments]
I find it interesting that one of the 'Jigoro' themes is about his 'businessman' persona—how businesslike he is, what business he is in, and so on. The other thing is his verbosity, whether in person or in his autobiography. I wonder what other hidden depths that character conceals! Thanks for your comments. I'll give a few more days for discussion before I officially give forewarning of the next session's topic: Akira/Lilly.

Meanwhile, how about Hideaki? :)
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Meeting Note: Akira/Lilly Next!

Post by brythain » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:56 pm

It didn't seem likely that Jigoro/Hideaki would produce much input in the first place, so my apologies for dragging this out beyond 14 November.
Further comments (especially on that poor soul, Hideaki) are still very welcome!

Up next: Akira and Lilly

Tentative list:

Ten Drabbles in the Life of Akira Satou by Themocaw (completed 26 Jan 2012)
Akira Pseudo-Route by Thanatos (completed 25 May 2014)

Deliberately leaving the Lilly list empty—there's a lot about her, and almost every fanfic author here has contributed to the list. Suggestions appreciated. I've already got tabs on Mirage_GSM, Oddball, kosherbacon... and in reserve for the ensemble cast Christmas session, a bunch more with dewelar taking over as co-chair. :)

Edit: I've come to realise that it can be hard to find 'pure' Lilly fics. A lot end up being Hanako fics or something else.
Last edited by brythain on Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Meeting Resumes—[Akira/Lilly]

Post by brythain » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:16 am

Lilly Satou is surprisingly even more polarising than her cousin Shizune, whom most people dislike. With Lilly, it's either full-on romance or a distaste for fairytale stereotyping. Her elder sister Akira is a more difficult proposition: she's seven years older, making her a fully-fledged adult with a job.

Here are the readings for this session, Akira readings before Lilly readings. I've tried to use 'discussable' texts accessible in this forum. So I've had a few other recommendations which I've left out for a few reasons; bad formatting (hard to read etc), off-site (pastebin-only etc) or incomplete. I've also left out pieces we've discussed before.

Long Fiction (over 7500 words):

Akira Pseudo-Route by Thanatos (completed 25 May 2014)
Testament by brythain (completed 07 Feb 2015)

Short Fiction (under 7500 words):

Ten Drabbles in the Life of Akira Satou by Themocaw (completed 26 Jan 2012)
The Manly Tea Party by kosherbacon (completed 22 Feb 2010)
Catharsis by Mirage_GSM (completed 05 Dec 2010)
Red Fish, Blue Fish by Oddball (completed 22 Nov 2012)
So She Dances by ProfAllister (completed 17 Mar 2014)
A Route Less Taken by brythain (completed 05 May 2015)

I have to say I was surprised at the dearth of Lilly POV and longer Lilly fiction. Hanako and Emi have a lot of that.
Please don't hesitate to read and comment, especially on the topic of Akira Satou. Further recommendations and suggestions are welcome!

Edit: see also earlier comments on Reunion: Akira and Hisao Meet the Family.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Akira/Lilly])

Post by fistit0917 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:45 am

I've only just read 3 of them, and i have to say, my heart is already aching ,and just a disclaimer, Lilly is my favorite character, so I my point of view might be biased, here goes:

Manly Tea Party part 1
for me, this one is a mixture of laugh and feels, when Kenji's bluntness and his paranoid nature collide with Lilly's formality and reserved nature what do we get ? hilarity ! however when Lilly revealed that she was indeed jealous/hate Hisao for stealing Hanako ,it really hit me in the feels, and not in a good way, in my heart Lilly's always been this motherly figure who always puts other's need in front of hers, and to see her actually cry like that ... it really pains me.
Manly Tea Party Part 2
ok, this part is where everything goes down to apes*** , I don't know if the "drunk Lilly" part was suppose to create comedy, but that scene kind of devastated me, to see this gorgeous woman absolutely wasted really hurt me in the bones, and the whole using her "elastic band with two holes" to seduce Kenji thing, seems unfitting, but overall it was a good piece of work.

Ten Drabbles in the Life of Akira Satou
I've read a lot of Akira and Lilly fic, but I have to say, this is one of the best, short and clear, gets the job done. To be honest, since the the official VN didn't exactly gave a lot of information and backstory about Akira, this is exactly what i expect their childhood to be like, through out the whole thing, you can feel the love, the hate,even the tension between Akira and Lilly, the ending was a very touching display as well, kind of reminded me the ending of Fluffandcrunch's "First comes love"

Catharsis
As much as I would like to verbally assault the writer of this fic, but I can't really do that. For me, nothing strikes more fear into my soul than a rejected confession, and I have to say, during my read through, there were multiple points where I literally screamed "No" out loud , if I'm being objective, I would say that this is an excellent piece of work, it really puts the reader on a emotion slide, where you can practically feel the inner struggle inside Hisao's heart, but If i were to be subjective I would say that this piece of writing is a complete piece of c*** .

now if you excuse me, Imma go read myself some FluffandCrunch (sorry for the bad english)

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Akira/Lilly])

Post by brythain » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:32 pm

fistit0917 wrote:To be honest, since the the official VN didn't exactly gave a lot of information and backstory about Akira, this is exactly what i expect their childhood to be like, through out the whole thing, you can feel the love, the hate,even the tension between Akira and Lilly...
That's one of the most fascinating things to explore, actually—the sibling relationships that aren't fully explored in the VN. What does everyone think about Akira (besides 'cool elder sister') and her relationship with Lilly?
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Akira/Lilly])

Post by Gajzla » Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:40 pm

brythain wrote: That's one of the most fascinating things to explore, actually—the sibling relationships that aren't fully explored in the VN. What does everyone think about Akira (besides 'cool elder sister') and her relationship with Lilly?
I think that she enjoys the position of cool older sister, and doesn’t/didn’t want to become a proxy for Lilly’s mother. Hence why Lilly was more or less forced to become so independent, not through neglect from Akira, but rather a reluctance to change the power dynamic.

I know you side “Beside cool older sister” But I think that’s exactly the kind of relationship Akira wants, because (imo at least) the alternative is mother. I think Akira also feels a resentment towards her parents for forcing her to define her relationship with her sister. Which, because their parents are no longer around in any kind of real way spills over into tension between her and Lilly.

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Akira/Lilly])

Post by brythain » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:11 pm

Gajzla wrote:
brythain wrote: That's one of the most fascinating things to explore, actually—the sibling relationships that aren't fully explored in the VN. What does everyone think about Akira (besides 'cool elder sister') and her relationship with Lilly?
I think that she enjoys the position of cool older sister, and doesn’t/didn’t want to become a proxy for Lilly’s mother. Hence why Lilly was more or less forced to become so independent, not through neglect from Akira, but rather a reluctance to change the power dynamic.

I know you side “Beside cool older sister” But I think that’s exactly the kind of relationship Akira wants, because (imo at least) the alternative is mother. I think Akira also feels a resentment towards her parents for forcing her to define her relationship with her sister. Which, because their parents are no longer around in any kind of real way spills over into tension between her and Lilly.
How do the sample fan-fictions demonstrate or define this? Take, for example, Oddball's 'Red Fish Blue Fish'.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Akira/Lilly])

Post by Gajzla » Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:23 am

brythain wrote:How do the sample fan-fictions demonstrate or define this? Take, for example, Oddball's 'Red Fish Blue Fish'.
Sorry, i’m an awful awful slacker. If it’s any excuse BWL came out on the WoW sever I play on =P

Red Fish Blue Fish:

Other than nearly killing me off with unexpected feels this story demonstrates Akira in full big sister mode. She stops doing something she needs to do, to make time for her sister. I don’t get the impression that she sees it as a chore though, I think she really does enjoy helping Lilly. It’s also that even at this age Akira has a certain amount of resentment for her parents, even more so it seems when it comes to how they care for Lilly.

Ten Drabbles in the Life of Akira Satou

This one demonstrates what I said before really well. At the start of the story we get the image of Akira as a protective big sister, then as time moves forward and she is forced to care for Lilly in a more mothering way she becomes unhappy. It’s not until she’s able to let Lilly become more independent, that she can once again resume the role of big sister and seems much happier for it.

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Akira/Lilly])

Post by Mirage_GSM » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:42 pm

BWL?
Are they doing Timewarped classic raids now? Didn't see anything like that in the patchnotes?

Anyway...

"The Manly Tea Party" is the tamer one of Kosher's two most read stories. I always liked the way he could pull plottwists out of nowhere - to the point where I started reading his stories while analyzing every line for potential plottwists at the end...

The "Ten Drabbles" was a fad started - and mostly perpetuated - by themocaw. Personally I don't see why a story should have exactly 100 words. It's not like it takes any skill to pull it off - but when used by a skillful writer like themocaw the exact amount of words doesn't matter. The result is extremely good anyway.

I remember "Red Fish, Blue Fish" mostly because of the discussion about US children's literature we had in the thread. I'd never read anything by Seuss before, and frankly I think that any child old enough to read is too old for stories like that... Must be a cultural thing.

"So she dances" was something I'd forgotten about. Still a very good read. Could probably have been a bit shorter, but it does a great job of conveying Lilly's feelings with the very atmosphere of the story.

Finally "Catharsis"... The shortest of the stories I've written here - the amount of work I put into it doesn't begin to compare to Katawa Kijo or KS Pentameter style - but in a way it's still special to me.
The title is significant in more than one way. For one thing the confession is a cathartic thing for Hisao, but also the story is more or less based on actual events and writing it was a cathartic experience for me.
Also of note is the fact that in this story Hanako is visiting her mother. Pre release we didn't know she was an orphan - just that her father had died when she was young - so her still having one parent was pretty much considered a given at the time.
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Akira/Lilly])

Post by Riakai » Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:39 pm

Manly Tea Time

That shit… that shit had me fucking dying of laughter. Kenji has always been good for comedic relief, but this made him out as more, which was nice. The turnaround at the council meeting actually got me, tbh.

The thought of Hisao staring at the pictures, then Mishizune, and back and forth stains my head, lmao.


Red Fish, Blue Fish

Hoooo. That, was the epitome of sentimental.

The thought of Lilly and Akira sitting at a desk, with Lilly staring off into space like a drug addict as she goes to town on some subpar lookin' fish and coloring adventures, was adorable.

The drawing thing got me at the end. Reminded me of the music box/crane, and music box/crane always makes me cri.

Always.

A Route Less Taken

I've not really read much with Saki in it, but that's a moot point. Lilly in this felt bitter for Hanako being taken, in both senses of the word: Taken from her and taken as an item. Like... She seems to think Hanako is straight up outie because of Hisao.

I can go back and forth on that one. I can see Lilly growing very detached because of the pairing, but to the degree of which it's portrayed in the ending... Eeeeeeh. I dunno.

I see Lilly as that one little chime on the windchime, that just kinda sticks there. It doesn't have any chimes to hit, once all of those around it falls/breaks, but it doesn't fall with them. It just doesn't have anything to chime against.


Ten Drabbles in the Life of Akira Satou

I can get behind how Akira comes out in these. The short nature is nice, and I enjoy the badassery that Akira goes into. Very close to how I would see it, especially with the 1st two. The books aaaand the beating.

The whole "not wanting to hate her sister" thing hits close to home, for a multitude of reasons. I've had to take care of so many people and things, and I always come to this point where I have to make myself not hate them, to understand their situation. That made it feel real fuckin' real.


Catharsis

I had to force myself to read this one. The second I sensed the rejection fic lingering over the entire tense of it, I instinctively clammed up. But, for science, I finished it.

I didn't get that much out of this, but probably because I've been in this near exact sort of situation too recently. I just kinda got pissed off and went off to get a bottle of ginger ale.


So She Dances

So... This one was nice. The sight of Lilly dancing solo in a massive ballroom inspires artistic tendencies out the wazoo, and also tears out the wazoo. The concept of Lilly/Akira having a mentally (and possibly physically?) abusive dad makes sense in all the right ways. Explains their tendencies to be so... Them. Akira's protectiveness, Lilly's motherlike instincts.

The mother made sense to a point, as I could see her being maybe more outspoken and less on the downlow.
tl;dr Mr Satou is of ass

Currently, I'm on Act 3 of the Akira Pseudo Route. I'll make a blanket post for that when I'm done, and then I'll also read up on Testament.
[Innumerable Fits]
The Naomi Inoue Pseudo-Route.

[Ria's One-Shot Hell]
One-Shots. Not much else to say there.

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Some Words

Post by brythain » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:14 am

Those are some really interesting responses, with insightful new looks at some relatively old and some newer works. I'll keep the discussion open till the end of this week, before dewelar begins to set out his agenda for 'ensemble works', bigger pieces involving most of the Yamaku cast. Suggestions are always welcome. Reading 'Developments', if you haven't already done so, might take two weeks, so including reading time, the 'ensemble works' meeting session will last through Christmas and end in the first full week of January. After that, we'll take a look at Emi/Meiko and then Rin/Nomiya, unless someone else has a better idea!
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Akira/Lilly])

Post by dewelar » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:55 pm

Hmmm...I think I'm supposed to be saying something here by now...

So, it seems that Developments is the next of the large works up for discussion. My apologies for not being a part of recent discussions on this thread, but between holiday stuff and the seemingly ever-increasing workload that has come with joining the Avitus writing team, I've been neglecting these boards as well as putting off writing anything KS-related. Unfortunately, that includes brythain's request to attempt to dredge up short- and medium-length works that would fall under the "ensemble cast" umbrella to accompany my own story, so...yeah. Part of the problem is that any good work that focuses on an ensemble cast is almost certain to be lengthy. I'd suggest things like Hoitash's The Road to Tokyo, Oddball's Shower Scenes, Mirage's Tripping, and the like, but if you're already reading Developments I'm not sure adding such longer works on top of it to your plate. I'm certainly open to ideas for shorter works that perhaps I haven't read, either.

As for Developments itself, I will be interested to see how people interpret the piece as a whole rather than in serial form as it was posted. Also, if you haven't read it before, or if you picked it up midway through, I highly recommend reading through the entire thread and not just the story itself. There's a lot of very cool discussion between chapters on various topics, both on-topic and not, and it also might help spark some of the same type of thing here.

Developments is the first fanfiction I've ever written and certainly the longest thing I've ever written, period. It was inspired particularly by my experience with Lilly's route. Being legally blind myself led me to play Lilly's route last, hoping for some greater connection to the character to wrap up my experience, but the number of unanswered questions I had about it and the general unfulfilling nature of both endings left me flat. Originally, the story was going to focus on Hisao and Hanako and how they reacted to the abrupt nature of Lilly's departure in her "other" ending, but it wasn't long before I realized that I needed to involve other characters, and the sprawl began. I don't want to say too much beyond that, unless someone has some specific questions they want to ask or specific points they want to talk about, so I'll leave it there for now. Happy reading!
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!

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Meeting Resumes—Developments

Post by brythain » Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:10 pm

Developments...

... was recently completed by dewelar, and has proven to be one of the most well-loved and re-read works starring the whole Yamaku cast.

Now that sufficient time has been allowed for some of us to have read the whole magnum opus, let the discussion begin!
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Now Showing—Developments!)

Post by Hoitash » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:51 am

I am really, really bad at this kind of thing, but here goes (before I begin I just wanna say I enjoyed the story immensely, but felt it was overly long and convoluted almost but not quite to its detriment. I'll explain below):

At first glance Developments seems like a long walk for a pretzel, in that what started as the Not Good Ending for Lilly becomes a Good Ending for Hisao and Emi. The thing is that this story is very much NOT a Hisao/Emi fic, in my opinion. It's this whole web of relationships and lives that are moving forward with their own past pains, and Hisao and Emi (and Lilly and Hana and their families and the kitchen sink) are sort of caught along for the ride.

Then again, Lilly and Hisao's relationship ending was the catalyst for this, but on the whole the story is about Hisao and the students of Yamaku -and their families- moving forward with their lives. Which is for the best, really, because its that web of stories that makes Developments. Without that greater web I don't think the story would work, honestly, or at least not as well (Hana's imagined love triangle angst would certainly be more annoying, poor thing). On the other hand, some of the greater story seems kinda superfluous (Shizune's mother is a thing now? Sure why not.) The web might be large, but it isn't tangled -just a little loose with the weaving (Lilly and Hana/Shizune and her family/Emi and her family/Hisao playing gopher between them all.)

My point if I even have one here is Developments does or does not work based on how much of the story you can tolerate and how well woven you believe the stories are. If you want an expansive story of people moving on with their lives as they sort through pains catalyzed by a young woman with no spine (no offense Lilly), you're in the right place. If you just wanna see Hisao get with a girl after his breakup with Lilly, well... here's a pretzel.
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