Yamaku Book Club (20190812 SNCA:TG)

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brythain
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes — [Shizune])

Post by brythain » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:27 am

Oddball wrote:I don't jump on the mother being dead bandwagon. it's possible, but at the same time there's no real evidence pointing towards it either.

Shizune doesn't talk about her family at all. You find out nothing about them until you meet them, and when you do, they tend to remain rather tight lipped about anything, other than the occasional slip from Jigoro.

In fact, given Jigoro's rather outspoken nature on his own accomplishments, I'd think that if he had to raise two children alone, he would have mentioned it, possibly by bragging.
Okay, let me float this idea. Since we're getting into the tangle that is the Hakamichi family, I think it might be a good idea to quickly go through Jigoro and Hideaki Hakamichi before we proceed to Akira and Lilly Satou. That's going to throw out my original chronological idea completely, but it makes some sort of sense. Further suggestions are welcome; I will go ahead with a new reading list this Friday otherwise.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes — [Shizune])

Post by SirKaid » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:58 am

Oddball wrote:I don't jump on the mother being dead bandwagon. it's possible, but at the same time there's no real evidence pointing towards it either.

Shizune doesn't talk about her family at all. You find out nothing about them until you meet them, and when you do, they tend to remain rather tight lipped about anything, other than the occasional slip from Jigoro.

In fact, given Jigoro's rather outspoken nature on his own accomplishments, I'd think that if he had to raise two children alone, he would have mentioned it, possibly by bragging.
What if she doesn't talk about them because they're both arrogant blowhards and she's embarrassed to be related to them? Maybe Shizune's mom is on a business trip or something?

Hisao, after meeting the Mother-In-Law at the wedding: "Oh dear god there's two of them."

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes — [Shizune])

Post by Blank Mage » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:21 am

I'm back! I have no decent excuse. So many video games. But I have a couple of weeks before the next Starcraft game, when I'll drop off the radar completely.

I didn't initially agree with Dewelar's 'Shizune's mom is alive and well' headcanon, but time and persuasive arguments have convinced me, several of which have already been brought up. It's also perfectly fitting with Shizune's character to simply avoid talking about the things she doesn't want to think about, as a somewhat petty means of 'striking back'. Even her father and the entire Satou side of the family are only mentioned when discussion about them becomes unavoidable; Shizune only really deals with matters as they become relevant to her immediate life.

Regarding the longer works, well, I'll get to those later...

Hugs for Everyone: Er, I'm not really a fan of this one, sorry, Oddball. Shizune flatly admits emotional weakness to herself, which seems unlikely, before envisioning her friends skipping through a field of flowers, which is ridiculous, before getting a song stuck in her head, which is impossible. Although I do genuinely enjoy those rare moments when we see the cracks in Shizune's armor, the narrative here was about as subtle as an airhorn and twice as loud. And then it gets even worse! Right, rant over, and now that I've burned some bridges, let's move on.

Unlimited Blank Works: Wait, what?

In Our Hands: As always, a nicely written piece, and not even remotely depressing! See, Brythain, you can do it if you try! Although I have to admire the writing itself, and shows a gentler side of Shizune that still retains the all-important aspects of her perfectionist personality, I will critique that it does little to influence my view of the characters. It's adorable, and a decent read, but nothing of consequence happens, no real drama to speak of. But then, that wasn't the point here, and I recognize that... actually, it does provide an interesting comparison for AtD Shizune. I wonder just how different Shizune would be if she was the 'winner' of the story? It seems here that she could easily reign in her more forceful traits when she no longer felt the need to 'capture' Hisao, and I could see this version of Hisao doing very well to maintain what would be a tense relationship otherwise.
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes — [Shizune])

Post by Oddball » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:28 am

Hugs for Everyone: Er, I'm not really a fan of this one, sorry, Oddball. Shizune flatly admits emotional weakness to herself, which seems unlikely, before envisioning her friends skipping through a field of flowers, which is ridiculous, before getting a song stuck in her head, which is impossible. Although I do genuinely enjoy those rare moments when we see the cracks in Shizune's armor, the narrative here was about as subtle as an airhorn and twice as loud. And then it gets even worse! Right, rant over, and now that I've burned some bridges, let's move on.
Well, they can't all be winners. Sometimes my sense of humor gets the better of me.

Now as for upcoming Jigoro and Hideaki discussion... good luck.
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Meeting Note (Hallows' Eve Update)

Post by brythain » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:34 pm

Next up: a quick look into the rest of the Hakamichi family—Jigoro and Hideaki!

There aren't many complete non-joke Jigoro and/or Hideaki fics, so at the moment we're having the following:

Of Jigoro and Hisao by Guestdude (completed 26 Mar 2012)
Feels for Jigoro by Scissorlips (completed 05 Apr 2012)
Birth of a Fighter by spirizu (completed 19 Jun 2012)
AkiraHeartsHideaki by Lux (completed 09 Sep 2012) [LONG] (will bridge to discussion on Akira)
Hideaki: A Tale of Manliness by DanjaDoom (completed 04 Sep 2013) [LONG] [prior discussion]
Sharks and Minnows by ProfAllister (completed 26 Dec 2013)
Hideaki's Journey by brythain (completed 04 Jun 2014) [LONG]
A Bear Discovers Fire by brythain (completed 19 Mar 2015)

The last two are mine again. It's unfortunate, because I've discovered that I'm relatively prolific in areas that are sparse.
I had thought there would be more. Apologies sincerely tendered. :(

Any more suggestions are MOST welcome! :)

Edit: Argh! Forgot to insert ProfAllister's charming Christmas piece Sharks and Minnows, previously mentioned but unconscionably left out.
Last edited by brythain on Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Meeting Resumes — [Jigoro/Hideaki] (20151031)

Post by brythain » Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:11 pm

Thanks to all those who've weighed in on the matter of Shizune Hakamichi. ProfAllister took us deeper into family history with her throwaway last line that produced much speculation (along well-traversed lines, however) about Shizune's mother. Leaty revealed the evolution of her Iwanako-Shizune dynamics. Some entertainment was to be had, and I can only imagine (actually, I can do more than that, heh heh) Shizune shaking her head at what our members had to say about her. Bleakly.

For the first week of November or so, we'll continue therefore in the Hakamichi line, taking a look at the (surprisingly?) rare Jigoro- or Hideaki-centric fiction menu. Yes, there are lots of joke pics (and fics) about these two—but relatively serious character-exploring ones? Not so many...

The previous post [here] has our reading list. Thank you all for being part of our merry band, and please feel free to continue our Misha-Shizune-Shizune's mother-Shizune's father-Shizune's brother discussion from any node you prefer!
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Jigoro/Hideaki])

Post by ProfAllister » Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:50 am

Ah, Jigoro. So much can be said of him, and so much has already. Much by me. Unfortunately, I'm a bit behind on reading the fanfics concerning him. And I'm not much better when it comes to Hideaki.

I at least have a meager contribution as far as fics go - Hideaki's had a couple (minor) cameos in FWoaN. Jigoro's served a bit better, in one of my previously linked fics, perhaps getting among the most screen time in a largely serious approach - one could actually say he appears to be sane!

Now, let's see if I can get around to reading some of these other fics...
Current Project: Misha Pseudo-Route

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Jigoro/Hideaki])

Post by brythain » Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:45 am

ProfAllister wrote:Ah, Jigoro. So much can be said of him, and so much has already. Much by me. Unfortunately, I'm a bit behind on reading the fanfics concerning him. And I'm not much better when it comes to Hideaki.

I at least have a meager contribution as far as fics go - Hideaki's had a couple (minor) cameos in FWoaN. Jigoro's served a bit better, in one of my previously linked fics, perhaps getting among the most screen time in a largely serious approach - one could actually say he appears to be sane!

Now, let's see if I can get around to reading some of these other fics...
Sorry, I sort of misplaced the link to 'Sharks and Minnows' and wasn't smart enough to find it using the search functions available.
I've now put it back in—it's a very enjoyable Jigoro piece which was one of the first that persuaded me to take him seriously as a supporting character.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Jigoro/Hideaki])

Post by Numb » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:45 pm

While I have yet to write something exploring the idea more eloquently, I have what I find to be an interesting view on Jigoro as a character. A lot of it boils down to Jigoro being a victim of injustice at the hands of the Satou family, and his attempts to fix the problem through less-than-legal methods.

To start, it is my belief that Hakamichi Industries doesn't exist. At least, not under that name. Jigoro was fairly poor before he met Mayoi Satou, and there's a story there about class systems and romance forming despite the taboos, but I haven't expanded on that idea yet (perhaps that can be the beginning of my fic exploring this concept). Skipping to the point hat Mayoi and Jigoro are madly in love, Jigoro now has limited access to the Satou fortune, as much as this displeases Mayoi's brother (Lilly's father and lead of Satou Industries) due to his strong dislike of Jigoro.

Using this access, Jigoro arranged a deal with Mr Satou that would allow him complete control over the Japanese branch of the company, but he must work under the Satou name and would not be allowed any input on international matters. Satou could have easily given Jigoro this same deal with a name change, and was willing to do so simply to force his daughters out of Japan and into Scotland if they wished to continue getting financial support directly from him. However, because Jigoro was the only male Hakamichi left, he knew the company would no longer represent any part of his family after he and Mayoi passed. Tensions around this matter are high for years, but Jigoro begrudgingly accepts the way things are. This part could use improvement, the logic is a bit stretchy as it currently stands.

Skip forward to Hideaki entering tween years. Hideaki begins showing some interest in Jigoro's work and starts studying business theory in hopes of impressing his father. Jigoro notices this and embraces it, realising that he now has a son who can carry a Hakamichi business forward, leading to long arguments with Satou over the matter. Satou basically tells Jigoro to eat a bag of phallus shaped chocolates with sugar on top, and this greatly divides the two families. Mayoi, scared of losing everything, goes to Inverness to try to convince Satou to let it go and give Jigoro the Japanese branch, but falls ill while there due to great stress and other factors, causing her to stay there for a longer period of time. She is the sick aunt that Lilly visits. Either this or she died at some point in the past, I think I prefer this version of events though.

Just under a year later, Hisao enters the picture and is visiting the Hakamichi home. Jigoro attempts to accommodate him, making a genuine effort with things like the breakfast omelettes, though Mayoi previously did the cooking so he still sucks at it, hence the eggshells. He is still angry over the Satou conflicts and is losing the battle, having only Akira on his side and a company that is suffering from malicious budget cuts. Despite all of this, he still tries to make Hisao feel welcome, but doesn't have the time to deal wih him constantly. He initially attempts to get him off his back with arrogance and constant talk about his book, with some slight hope that Hisao actually reads it and learns what he is currently dealing with, but then it evolves into a sort of childish way of venting his frustrations by verbally dumping all over the new face.

It's still a very incomplete chain of events, gotta fill in a lot of blanks, but this is my take on Jigoro. I haven't thought about Hideaki much, I briefly gave some consideration to him being trans or gender fluid but I scrapped that idea because I've seen weirder fashion on Japanese men that aren't LGBTQIA+ and figured he could probably just be one of the eccentric fashionistas. He does come from an eccentric family, after all.
Currently working on: Notes for a new project (Coming Soon™)
I did KS and other songs on note blocks in Minecraft: Playlist here
Old works| Rooftops - An Emi Story| Christmas with the Hakamichis | Not Like Him - Rin Perspective|Blossom - A Miki pseudo-route

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Jigoro/Hideaki])

Post by brythain » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:01 pm

Numb wrote:While I have yet to write something exploring the idea more eloquently, I have what I find to be an interesting view on Jigoro as a character. A lot of it boils down to Jigoro being a victim of injustice at the hands of the Satou family, and his attempts to fix the problem through less-than-legal methods.

To start, it is my belief that Hakamichi Industries doesn't exist. At least, not under that name. Jigoro was fairly poor before he met Mayoi Satou, and there's a story there about class systems and romance forming despite the taboos, but I haven't expanded on that idea yet (perhaps that can be the beginning of my fic exploring this concept). Skipping to the point hat Mayoi and Jigoro are madly in love, Jigoro now has limited access to the Satou fortune, as much as this displeases Mayoi's brother (Lilly's father and lead of Satou Industries) due to his strong dislike of Jigoro.
That's very interesting. My take on it (here) was quite the opposite. I based Lilly's grandfather on a real-life Mr Satou whose story is recounted by David Pilling in his 2014 book 'Bending Adversity—Japan and the Art of Survival'. The reason I actually had a 'Hakamichi Industries' plotted out in detail was that the name appears in Michael Crichton's 1980 thriller 'Congo' as that of a nefarious Tokyo-based electronics corporation. No doubt it was meant to be a dig at the real-life Nakamichi electronics.

Edit: oh yes, Numb... errm, comments on already-written fics would be good; comments on yet-to-be-written fics are difficult because, well, no text for discussion. Sorry!
Last edited by brythain on Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Jigoro/Hideaki])

Post by Numb » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:46 pm

brythain wrote: oh yes, Numb... errm, comments on already-written fics would be good; comments on yet-to-be-written fics are difficult because, well, no text for discussion. Sorry!
Oh, right, yeah. Totally didn't forget the name of this thread for a while there. I have yet to read the listed fics, I'll try to get that done and comment on them by the end of the week, though I can't promise anything, got a fair amount of work and catching up on life to do this week.
Currently working on: Notes for a new project (Coming Soon™)
I did KS and other songs on note blocks in Minecraft: Playlist here
Old works| Rooftops - An Emi Story| Christmas with the Hakamichis | Not Like Him - Rin Perspective|Blossom - A Miki pseudo-route

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Meeting Resumes—[Jigoro/Hideaki])

Post by brythain » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:30 pm

A week's reading time has almost elapsed. Apart from Numb's fascinating (and sadly still incomplete) foray into the fanfic dynamics of the Hakamichi family, much remains to be said. Some of us have been hoarding ammunition; it might be time for a celebratory barrage. Feel free to join in with your views on Shizune's male relatives. Thanks!
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Jigoro/Hideaki])

Post by Oddball » Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:57 am

Honestly, I have little to say about them. Hideaki is probably the worst character in the game. The just drains the energy right out of every scene he's in. He just shows up and does not funny things. it's like somebody took Mr. Spocks's awkward teenage years and stuck them in drag... except that would be interesting. His sole redeeming value lies in his interactions with Akira, and that has more to do with her than him.

Jigoro can at least be amusing at times and is right (or at least closer to the truth) in many cases than a lot of people want to give him credit for. He just goes about it in the most obnoxious way possible. People talk about how horrible Shizune can be, well, he's got all her worse traits with years of experience to add to them and without any of the cuteness or Misha to soften it.
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Jigoro/Hideaki])

Post by Mahorfeus » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:23 am

I'd go so far as to say that Jigoro and Hideaki are two of the main reasons I disliked the Shizune route.

I absolutely agree with everything Oddball said about Hideaki. He's just sort of... there. His relationship with Shizune is never really explored or anything. The closest thing is probably his desire to learn sign language from Hisao, but that never goes anywhere.

Jigoro is both better and worse, in that regard. The VN never exactly does much to explain why he's the way he is. Fanfic writers have surely tried over the years, and I used to lobe those kinds of efforts, but now... eh. Jigoro often comes off as being ridiculously eloquent in a lot of stories. I guess I've just come to be of the opinion that he isn't more complex than he seems to be - he's exactly as shallow as I thought he was.
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The verdict is (finally) in:
Hanako > Rin > Emi > Lilly = Shizune

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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Resumes—[Jigoro/Hideaki])

Post by brythain » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:52 am

Mahorfeus wrote:I'd go so far as to say that Jigoro and Hideaki are two of the main reasons I disliked the Shizune route.
Oddball wrote:Honestly, I have little to say about them. Hideaki is probably the worst character in the game.
Errm, guys, the discussions are about the fanfics and not the VN. Yeah, all that you've said is pretty common stuff for a sizeable proportion of those who've played KS. But do you have any comments about various other takes on those characters?
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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