Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 1/12)

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Re: Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 10/17)

Post by Mirage_GSM » Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:09 am

“Of course,” I say. “He needs something like black, or grey, or red. Powerful colors. If someone finds him, I at least want them to be impressed. Maybe I'll get into less trouble.” My words, spoken proudly, are punctuated by the loud splattering of very fat water droplets practically streaming off me and onto the floor.
Are there a few lines missing here? I have no idea what he is talking about...
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Re: Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 10/17)

Post by Eurobeatjester » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:40 pm

Mirage_GSM wrote:
“Of course,” I say. “He needs something like black, or grey, or red. Powerful colors. If someone finds him, I at least want them to be impressed. Maybe I'll get into less trouble.” My words, spoken proudly, are punctuated by the loud splattering of very fat water droplets practically streaming off me and onto the floor.
Are there a few lines missing here? I have no idea what he is talking about...
This probably works better if you read the scene before this one and this one together. Hisao's referring to the fish that Saki gave him. When Saki gave him the fishbowl, she also gave him pink gravel and a pink plant to decorate it.

I'll go back and make a few changes along with the other edits people caught :D
Stuff I'm currently writing: Learning To Fly: A Saki Enomoto Pseudo Route
Two Turtledoves - A Lilly/Hisao Christmas Oneshot
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Re: Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 10/17)

Post by Eurobeatjester » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:48 pm

I didn't know where else to put it, so I did here. I'm running into a unexpected challenge that I didn't anticipate when I first started writing this story.

I thought I was struggling with Act 1, and once I got into Act 2 that things would be easier because I wouldn't have to shoehorn characters in and I could really get into Saki and Hisao's relationship, and Saki as a person.

I was wrong.

I really struggled with the pool scene. It took me a while to figure out why, and I have. I want to share the reason so it may help anyone else who writes an extensive piece of KS fanfic.

I guess when I was designing the characters and their personalities for this, I fell into the trap of not considering Hisao an original character.

Hisao's personality is pretty much set in the first act, as he's the only constant among all the different girls he meets. But then, once you get into any of the routes, Hisao changes as much if not more so than the actual girls, and he goes in drastically different directions depending on the route.

Just to try and get a handle on this, I went and replayed the last few scenes in each of the routes. Hisao is a drastically different person in almost every one of them by the end of the game.

I think that, as a writer, it's tough situation to be in. I think that one of the main appeals to Katawa Shoujo is that you are drawn to the girl you relate to the most, but a far more subtle thing is how you're drawn to the type of person Hisao becomes. People joke about the "master of romance" moments but there were times when I just wanted to reach through the screen and slap him in various routes. That's also a reason I prefer some routes over others even if I like the girl better - because I don't like Hisao as much as I do in other routes.

So, I think that everyone who writes a route, or at the very least a larger piece of fiction where Hisao is with an OC (I consider any character in the game that doesn't have many things about them established as an OC, so that would include characters like Saki, Rika, Miki, Suzu, etc.) probably has an idea of Hisao in their head. But what version of Hisao is it? The aloof one from the end of Rin's route who doesn't really worry too much about his future, the health conscious one at the end of Emi's route, the self fulfilled one at the end of Lilly's, etc? I think, looking back when I originally started writing, the version of Hisao I identified the most with was the one from Hanako's route.

So, the reason why the pool scene wasn't coming out right when I was writing it was because I thought I was coming at it from the angle of "How would Hisao react in this situation?" when in reality I was thinking of "How would the Hisao from the end of Hanako's route react in this situation?"

That version of Hisao, I don't see being able to handle or roll with flirtatious situations being thrown at him, like the kind Emi does in the actual game (or Saki does in my writing)

Once I realized that and dropped the pretense and treated Hisao like an OC on the same level as Saki, the writing for that scene went so much smoother for me and I'm actually changing parts of the outline now for later chapters and am more excited to be writing them than I was.

Just wanted to post my thoughts on it :)
Stuff I'm currently writing: Learning To Fly: A Saki Enomoto Pseudo Route
Two Turtledoves - A Lilly/Hisao Christmas Oneshot
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Re: Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 10/17)

Post by brythain » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:55 pm

Eurobeatjester wrote:That version of Hisao, I don't see being able to handle or roll with flirtatious situations being thrown at him, like the kind Emi does in the actual game (or Saki does in my writing)

Once I realized that and dropped the pretense and treated Hisao like an OC on the same level as Saki, the writing for that scene went so much smoother for me and I'm actually changing parts of the outline now for later chapters and am more excited to be writing them than I was.

Just wanted to post my thoughts on it :)
Part of Hisao's essential character development here is Hisao learning to roll, so to speak. :)
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Re: Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 10/17)

Post by Oscar Wildecat » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:32 pm

Eurobeatjester wrote: Hisao's personality is pretty much set in the first act, as he's the only constant among all the different girls he meets. But then, once you get into any of the routes, Hisao changes as much if not more so than the actual girls, and he goes in drastically different directions depending on the route.
This makes quite a bit of sense, when one stops to think about it. The poor lad is thrown into an unfamiliar situation where he his forced to adapt or face the "manly picnic". How he would adapt would be influenced by who he associated with during this critical time.

Of course, it goes a bit further. In a way, there is not one Hisao Nakai, but six, presented in the VN. (One for each girl + "manly picnic".) While each Hisao Nakai may have a shared common history from prior to Iwanako's ill-fated confession, who's to say that each Nakai's past was precisely the same, down to the last dotted "i" and crossed "t". It would be these little inconsistencies that, in-game, explain why -- for example -- he ends up on Emi's route and not Lilly's.

Just more food for thought.

But anyway, while I'm posting thoughts:

I thoroughly enjoy the latest update.
Last edited by Oscar Wildecat on Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 10/17)

Post by dewelar » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:40 pm

Oscar Wildecat wrote:In a way, there is not one Hisao Nakai, but six, presented in the VN. (One for each girl + "manly picnic".)
I'd actually argue that there are thirteen, one for each ending. At the very least, I can tell you with some authority that the Hisao of Lilly's Good Ending is quite different from the Hisao of Lilly's Neutral Ending :) . If you think about it, which choices Hisao makes also affect his inherent character (in LNE, he's a much more closed, much less proactive person than he is in LGE).
Last edited by dewelar on Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 10/17)

Post by Eurobeatjester » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:42 pm

dewelar wrote:
Oscar Wildecat wrote:In a way, there is not one Hisao Nakai, but six, presented in the VN. (One for each girl + "manly picnic".)
I'd actually argue that there are thirteen, one for each ending. At the very least, I can tell you with some authority that the Hisao of Lilly's Good Ending is quite different from the Hisao of Lilly's Neutral Ending :) .
Besides the pacemaker? :lol:
Stuff I'm currently writing: Learning To Fly: A Saki Enomoto Pseudo Route
Two Turtledoves - A Lilly/Hisao Christmas Oneshot
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Re: Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 10/17)

Post by dewelar » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:45 pm

Eurobeatjester wrote:
dewelar wrote:
Oscar Wildecat wrote:In a way, there is not one Hisao Nakai, but six, presented in the VN. (One for each girl + "manly picnic".)
I'd actually argue that there are thirteen, one for each ending. At the very least, I can tell you with some authority that the Hisao of Lilly's Good Ending is quite different from the Hisao of Lilly's Neutral Ending :) .
Besides the pacemaker? :lol:
Heh, indeed...it appears my edit crossed with this :) . Another good example is Shizune's route. The Hisao who comforts Misha is a much different person than the one who declines.
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Re: Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 10/17)

Post by Oscar Wildecat » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:52 pm

dewelar wrote:
Oscar Wildecat wrote:In a way, there is not one Hisao Nakai, but six, presented in the VN. (One for each girl + "manly picnic".)
I'd actually argue that there are thirteen, one for each ending. At the very least, I can tell you with some authority that the Hisao of Lilly's Good Ending is quite different from the Hisao of Lilly's Neutral Ending :) . If you think about it, which choices Hisao makes also affect his inherent character (in LNE, he's a much more closed, much less proactive person than he is in LGE).
Good point. Maybe that's why the "manly picnic" ending goes the way it does. Maybe it's the fourth iteration of Hisao Nakai. Or the Thirteenth?
I like all the girls in KS, but empathize with Hanako the most.
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Re: Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 10/17)

Post by Eurobeatjester » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:57 pm

In the words of The Joker:

"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

Thanks all for the feedback and discussion. I'm glad the reviews to this chapter have been pretty positive :) It's been a long time since I've written teenage sexual tension :lol:
Stuff I'm currently writing: Learning To Fly: A Saki Enomoto Pseudo Route
Two Turtledoves - A Lilly/Hisao Christmas Oneshot
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Re: Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 10/17)

Post by forgetmenot » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:25 pm

Eurobeatjester wrote:So, I think that everyone who writes a route, or at the very least a larger piece of fiction where Hisao is with an OC (I consider any character in the game that doesn't have many things about them established as an OC, so that would include characters like Saki, Rika, Miki, Suzu, etc.) probably has an idea of Hisao in their head. But what version of Hisao is it? The aloof one from the end of Rin's route who doesn't really worry too much about his future, the health conscious one at the end of Emi's route, the self fulfilled one at the end of Lilly's, etc? I think, looking back when I originally started writing, the version of Hisao I identified the most with was the one from Hanako's route.
Mwahahahaha!Trap card activated!

In all honesty, I'm thrilled that you've come to this conclusion on your own. I've lost count of the number of people on these boards I've discussed this very concept with. Just a fair warning that Hisao will probably give you more trouble to write than Saki - that's certainly the case with me, and I actually had a plan for where I wanted to take Hisao's character. Nevertheless, I'm sure you'll handle it with grace.

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Re: Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 10/17)

Post by Blackmambauk » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:08 pm

Eurobeatjester wrote:words
Quite interesting views here that you have. Been reading your fic and some of your posts you have made like at the start where you talked about some of your feelings on the game, and some of your points I have to say I agree on in regards to Hisao's heart problem and how the game maybe downplayed it a bit, though I suspect it had to do with leaving Hisao not too blank, but with enough room for players to feel like they are Hisao in some way, or better yet relate to him more easily than the girls. Audience Surrogate would be what springs to mind about Hisao from my view.

Plus I imagine it aided each route writers in what they wanted to do with Hisao as a character and how it fitted the romance with each girls in those routes.

Though one of the best things I found about Hisao as the main character was that he had a character to him that too few visual novel character have. He had a personality, enough of a past and backstory to make him believable and that he was also for the most part a nice guy giving a lot of credence and believability to why any of the women would be interested in him, too few visual novels or series in Shoujo category tend to do so and that leaves me very frustrated with the genre. School Days being a good example of this (though that series is in some ways a deconstruction of those sort of series when you consider it form a certain point of view).

Interesting that you plan to go with the Hisao form Hanako's route, Hisao in that route is probably the one where his flaws come into play the most. His patronizing attitude to Hanako at times was something that got a rise out of me, as while I could understand why he acted that way toward Hanako (admit it most would act that way towards her considering how she can come across at times). It made me feel at times he didn't see Hanako as a person and pitied her, which the bad end of her route alludes to with much rigorous, which I can say I can really relate to on a personal level (with me being autistic, Asperger's syndrome to be precise). The one thing most people with a disability can't stand is pity, which the game also points out a few times with Lilly and Emi as well and also being made to feel we can't do anything without help.

Plus as he admits his own walls at times caused problems between him and Hanako. I wonder how you plan to explore that in your story with Saki and her condition, the foil of what Saki sees in her condition that like Hisao could kill her sooner than expected. This will be interesting to read about.

So far I think your story is excellent, has a down to earth feel that makes it stand out form other stories round here, plus your Saki so far has a subtle element to her, your story as well which I like. Your writing is clear, grammar seems correct and it's pacing is nice not too slow, but not too fast. Each chapter you feel like your building towards future events and hinting to hidden Depths.

I liked the swimming scene and the whole idea of it, as someone who swam a lot as a kid, swimming is a very healthy form of exercise and quite a stimulating one once you get going, though for some reason I lost interest in it and most sports as I grew, reading, video games etc. just became more enjoyable on a personal and intellectual level for me.

One scene I liked was how you went into Hisao condition into great detail, I like how you have done a lot of research into doing your story, that to me is what makes a writer stand out, is when they do the research and effort to put a lot of detail into their story and characters. That to me is what makes a good writer.

I will admit my favourite route in the game, Shizune was despite it's disjointed pacing and plot, Had subtly and things being implied that gave it a different feel to the other routes, plus Shizune was interesting to me as a person despite her flaws. Seeing it in your story is something I like and hoping to see more of as you do your story.

Anyway I really hopy you can continue your story to it's very end, I think your the person to do a Saki route justice and so far you are doing a sterling job keep it up.
Last edited by Silentcook on Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 10/17)

Post by Eurobeatjester » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:55 pm

Blackmambauk wrote:
Eurobeatjester wrote:words
Interesting that you plan to go with the Hisao form Hanako's route, Hisao in that route is probably the one where his flaws come into play the most. His patronizing attitude to Hanako at times was something that got a rise out of me, as while I could understand why he acted that way toward Hanako (admit it most would act that way towards her considering how she can come across at times). It made me feel at times he didn't see Hanako as a person and pitied her, which the bad end of her route alludes to with much rigorous, which I can say I can really relate to on a personal level (with me being autistic, Asperger's syndrome to be precise). The one thing most people with a disability can't stand is pity, which the game also points out a few times with Lilly and Emi as well and also being made to feel we can't do anything without help.

Plus as he admits his own walls at times caused problems between him and Hanako. I wonder how you plan to explore that in your story with Saki and her condition, the foil of what Saki sees in her condition that like Hisao could kill her sooner than expected. This will be interesting to read about.
Thank you for the kind words :D It means a lot to get feedback. :wink:

I just wanted to clarify that I didn't intend to or plan to go forward with the Hisao from Hanako's route, either now or at any stage. Honestly, I just spent so much time developing Chisato, Saki, Noriko, etc (even though I've only gone a little into Chisato) that I just automatically assumed that Hisao would be the easiest part of writing since he does have a personality. But when I hit that wall, I realized it was because the Hisao that was prominent in my mind was Hanako's version - even if I had never given it any active thought. Saki is very different from Hanako in many regards, and there would be no reason for that Hanako's Hisao to show interest or take the time to be with her, the same way Hanako's Hisao doesn't have a reason to show any real interest in the other girls.
Stuff I'm currently writing: Learning To Fly: A Saki Enomoto Pseudo Route
Two Turtledoves - A Lilly/Hisao Christmas Oneshot
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Re: Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 10/17)

Post by Eurobeatjester » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:15 pm

The member on deviantart in question discussed a few posts ago just sent me a message with screenshots of my post.

So, for someone who claims they don't read the forums, doesn't know who I am, and doesn't care about the story, hi! How are you?
Stuff I'm currently writing: Learning To Fly: A Saki Enomoto Pseudo Route
Two Turtledoves - A Lilly/Hisao Christmas Oneshot
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Re: Learning To Fly - A Saki pseudo-route (Updated 10/17)

Post by timetravelzero » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:24 am

Eurobeatjester wrote:The member on deviantart in question discussed a few posts ago just sent me a message with screenshots of my post.

So, for someone who claims they don't read the forums, doesn't know who I am, and doesn't care about the story, hi! How are you?
damn is he really theowing a fit obver this sytory?
Akira>Lilly=Shizune>Emi>Hanako>Mutou=Nurse>Saki>Misha=Rika>Yuuko>Meiko=Miki>Suzu>Kenji>Rin=Iwanako>Jigoro>Nomiya>{POWERGAP}>Hisao Eh, my opinion anyway

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