Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

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monkeywitha6pack
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Re: Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

Post by monkeywitha6pack » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:46 pm

I said the last section was mean I looked at your advise about the route and i looked at like 5 other peoples advice to continue it and I went with them. Saying my writing is literary noodling is not advice. Pointing out what areas I need to work on is advice. Accusing me of only doing this route for fame is not advice that's mean. You have no clue my reasons for writing it. Because I want to do something original doesn't mean I'm out for fame. Now i want to move on from this and update and write again so please stop coming back to fight. If you have to fight do it over pm not clogging up this thread.
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monkeywitha6pack
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Re: Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

Post by monkeywitha6pack » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:50 pm

Plus saying 'I undersatnd you very very young and have bad reading comprehension that's not advice that's just mean
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Re: Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

Post by bhtooefr » Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:00 pm

There's a simple divergence point that could let SOMETHING happen, really, but it wouldn't make a good story, if someone insists on the rigid pseudo-route format. Here's how it would flow.

Start from the Kenji end. Maybe let some choices earlier unlock this.

Duck left vs. duck backwards on the roof would be the choice point that would determine whether you live or die. Duck left means you live, Kenji passes out drunk, you sneak back to your dorm.

Mope a couple weeks.

Go to the mail room, get Iwanako's letter. Read it. Reply.

Start stalking Iwanako.

Iwanako gets a restraining order against you.

You jump off the roof and die.

For what it's worth, I think an Iwanako route COULD be interesting, although it would be tricky (I don't think impossible) to include parts of KS in it, and yes, it would be alternate universe. But, it'll be difficult to do in a compelling way.
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Re: Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

Post by Leaty » Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:04 pm

monkeywitha6pack wrote:Plus saying 'I undersatnd you very very young and have bad reading comprehension that's not advice that's just mean
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Re: Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

Post by BlackWaltzTheThird » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:31 am

Okay. Wow. This thread is quite volatile (as a whole, might I add, so as not to implicate any particular parties in its volatility). I'll preface this by saying that, of the five completed pseudo routes that Mirage mentioned, I was one of their authors. Granted, my pseudo route was of the OC x OC persuasion, but it is no less relevant to the topic at hand. The most noteworthy reason for pointing this out, however, is that, when I set out to write Greater than the Sum, I had previously published exactly zero works on this forum, much like yourself. And, having been through that experience, I will strongly advise you - and for that matter, anyone without previous writing experience - against writing a route at this time.

Allow me to share a little backstory. GttS was borne of a post I made in an old "create your own character" thread on this forum. The character I made was loosely (well, less loosely as I care to admit) based on myself, which, in and of itself, is a bad idea. However, for the purpose of brevity, I'll not go into the failings of character self-insertion. Having created this "character", ideas began to form about those with whom he might interact. Within a few hours I had finished my first chapter, and within a few days I had finished several more. What I had was messy, poorly written and ultimately ill-concieved.

I took some time to plan out where I was going to go with my fic. In depth notes were written; who, what, when, where, why. I still have that document, and it stands at around a thousand words; almost half the length of my chapters, on average. That planning gave me a solid structure for each and every one of the chapters that followed, resulting in (for the most part) a cohesive story. That being said, I will go on record here to say that Greater than the Sum is not a good story. It reeks of amateurish writing, planning and storytelling. Its existance reminds me of just how bad an idea writing a route was. It is also why, for the better part of the year and a half since, I have written mostly oneshots.

Doing so has allowed me to learn much about writing. There are the obvious things such as punctuation, spelling and grammar, as well as the less obvious things such as characterisation, narrator's voice, foreshadowing, and so on. Constant experimentation in shorter pieces of a variety of natures has allowed me to develop - if you'll excuse the narcissism - a very high standard of writing. I am 110% certain that, if I were to write GttS now, it would inevitably be a much better-written piece of literature on any and all metrics against which you might measure it.

I did not have the opportunity to see what you had written, but going only by the responses in the this thread and your replies accordingly, I'm afraid it does not bode well for your level of technical skill. Please understand that I do not mean for this to come across as offensive. We have all been at that point of amateurishness at one time or another, even those whom you hold in such high regard. The only way that they - or anyone, for that matter - can grow beyond that point is by practicing. A lot. And the best way to do that is to start small. You can bet your ass that DaVinci didn't wake up one morning and say "I'm going to paint the Mona Lisa"; no, he started long before then, scribbling in a notebook perhaps, until he had developed the skills for which he is reknowned to this day.

I'll not comment too strongly on your premise. I believe it detrimental to limit oneself to writing only certain stories if the alternative might not share the same themes or might require an asspull or fifty. You are free to write whatever you see fit, provided it has, at the very least, a tenuous connection to the source material. What that could entail is entirely up to you; however, please understand that the further you stray, the less likely it is that you will attract an audience, regardless of how well-written your story is.

Furthermore, perhaps the most important thing to consider when writing is how to deal with criticism. Often, for first-time writers, a lot of criticism is received. Likewise, it is often the case that first-time writers will reject this criticism, whether it be constructive, or harsh, or whatever else. The worst thing you can do - even if you might feel like you're being criticised unfairly or even bullied - is to become offended. These people are only trying to help you improve, as much as it might seem like they're discouraging you. You must discard your pride and put your nose to the grindstone. It will take a lot of hard work, and sometimes you might even want to quit, but those authors you admire did not get to where they are without hard work. If you want to be like them, then you must work as hard - if not harder - than they did.

It will be tough, and if you do, in fact, speak English as a second language, then it will be all the more tough. But that will only make your success all the more meaningful when you do, indeed, succeed. Do not give up. Put what you have so far on hold. Store it in some document elsewhere on your computer. And go about writing as much as possible until such time that you possess the skill level that you see in your favourite works. Then, and only then, should consider writing your route.

Good luck, and godspeed.
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Helbereth
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Re: —

Post by Helbereth » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:16 am

monkeywitha6pack wrote:The story starts 3 days after Hisao gets to the school and he gets a phone call from a depressed Iwanako.
Let me stop you right there. Of all the timelines in Katawa Shoujo, the most well-documented is that of Act 1. At no point during that first week does Hisao ever receive any phone calls from anyone--parents, friends, or otherwise. Furthermore, nothing Hisao does differently at Yamaku can really effect Iwanako, so there's no way to spin his first few awkward days to cause her to call--it would have to be her decision.

For this to happen, something will have to effect causality back at Hisao's old school that changes Iwakano's path so that she decides to make a phone call instead of writing a letter. Even if that does happen, how can there be a 'pseudo-route' in any traditional context without both characters ever meeting?

Granted, we know about at least one such meeting that went horribly wrong, but, being separated by half a country, their romance will depend entirely on long-distance communication. On top of that, they're both chained to classrooms for the next six months, which will further limit their contact. All that together that would be a death sentence even for a strong, long-term relationship, which they didn't have.

I mean, you can go ahead and try to make a story like that compelling, but it will more likely end up being depressing.

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Re: Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

Post by ProfAllister » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:36 am

Well, a lot's been said, but I feel that I have some more that I'm only one of a few people qualified to say.

As a preface, from what I've seen of Leaty, it's clear that she's a veteran of the world of fan fiction. Most of us here are just babies. She's certainly not 100% accurate, but she's been around the block a couple times, and seems to know her stuff. She also seems to have experience with the more toxic parts of the fanfic world. By comparison, this forum is so non-toxic that, were it a box of crayons, the label would state that they're fortified with 9 essential vitamins and minerals.

She's not particularly nice, but she's not mean for the sake of being mean, either. I believe the term is "tough love."

I make no accusations or assumptions as to your motive, but a word of warning: do not write because you want someone to read your work; write because you want someone to write your work. The former can work, and there are many successful people who do exactly that, but it's a recipe for burnout.

Anyway, why am I able to say something that hasn't been said? Because I'm one of the idiots who was crazy enough to start writing a pseudo-route for a character who was "taken." Not simply taken, but taken by a respected member of the community and easily one of the most capable writers who's ever visited this forum.

Why? Because his story wasn't my story. I had a different story that needed to be told. So I picked up my keyboard, put it down because keyboards don't work that way, and started typing. I got next to no feedback for weeks, if not months (or it felt that way, at least). Then one day, I was blindsided because the other author not only announced that he was stopping, he recommended my work as better. And people agreed with him! (Results not typical)

But I don't write for the audience, even now that I have one and know I have it. The story in my head simply will not leave me alone. So even if everyone stops reading, I'll still feel the need and desire to continue. If a story in your head is worth writing, you won't be able to NOT want to write it. You can certainly -not- write it, but the desire will stay until you somehow get it out of your system (including through deliberate suppression or extended withdrawal).

On the subject of experience, it's a tough call, but it also isn't. Strictly speaking, my "creative writing" experience is limited to a decade-old <2k short story and a few (mediocre-bad) one-shots I've posted here. My overall writing experience is much more extensive, as my College education required me at one point to write at least one 5-page paper every day (and these weren't the easy throwaway "write and essay about something" papers; these were "read this book and write a 5-page paper analysing the strengths and weaknesses of the argument; it's due in two days and these assignments in total will be half your grade"). I regularly write essays for fun, and my job also requires an extensive amount of professional writing. On top of that, I consume massive amounts of content, in the form of books, movies, TV shows, video games, fine arts, and "other."

Writing is a skill, and it needs training, but the training isn't necessarily writing itself. A football player is by virtue of his football training also better prepared to lift weights than the average Joe. There's nothing wrong with being a bad writer, and it's not shameful. It's no more shameful than being a bad cook, or terrible at driving 18-wheelers, or terrible at measuring people for bra fittings. As immortalised by Jake from Adventure Time, “Dude, suckin’ at something is the first step to being sorta good at something.” Would you rather be showered with praise and end up like those poor souls featured on "American Idol" who were never told that that their voice makes flowers wilt?

So if you want to write, write. But be willing to accept criticism, no matter how harsh. Judge the criticism on the merits of the argument, not the tone of voice. There will always be people who irrationally love you and people who irrationally hate you - their comments rarely have any value. On the other hand, you still need to look at what they say with a critical eye - even a broken clock is right twice a day (the clock that's perfectly calibrated but is 5 minutes fast is never right, but that's another story).

Also, share what you write with someone else, preferably several other people. As a general rule, people are terrible judges of their own work. Never throw your stuff away - a terrible scrap of writing (or a good one that simply doesn't fit) can always return in a newer brighter form in the future. Similarly, never retract something you've published. It's out there, and it can't be taken back - to do so comes off as petty and childish. Leave it where it is and let it serve as a humbling reminder of where you once were and an incentive to get better. In the context of this forum, if it's truly offensive, Silentcook will likely nuke it before you have time to reconsider, and leave you with a private message to the effect of "Dude, that's seriously fucked up. You should get help." And considering what's been left posted on these forums, I'd strongly recommend you to take him up on that advice.
Current Project: Misha Pseudo-Route

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monkeywitha6pack
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Re: Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

Post by monkeywitha6pack » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:39 am

The only reason I deleted it was a rough draft my plan was to leave it up finish the final draft and switch them out. So yeah I did fuck up but I enlisted 2 or 3 people's helps I can this shitty situation into hopefully something better. I agree with most of what you said. I do agree with the motives to part but I find it hard not to write and think "I hope someone enjoys this" in which thinking that makes me want to write more of my story.
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Re: Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

Post by Mavensage » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:29 pm

I think the idea of an Iwanako "route" is brilliant. Of course it would require something to change in the original story. All routes do in order to allow Hisao to have the choice to be with whichever girl the author has in mind. All the complaints that I've seen so far that there is no story are just people who haven't thought of a good way to make one. I can think of several ways all set at different points.

Reading Iwanako's letter makes it clear she gave up only after being pushed away. She didn't simply get bored or fall for someone else. The fact she wrote a letter instead of call or email could also be taken as she was afraid of the pain of interacting with Hisao if he is still like the way he was in the hospital.

It also seems rude to dismiss her feelings for him. She visited him longer than any one else including his closest friends. Its not hard to imagine that she regrets giving up on him. Despite Hisao's reaction to it, her letter also seemed like a last attempt at trying again. Her "perhaps we shouldn't see each other again" never seemed convincing in light of her Ï'd very much like to hear how things are going at your new school". It seems like she's hedging her bets while using the letter format to act as a buffer to protect herself from further rejection.

Hisao's reaction seems to vary a lot depending on who he is involved with. This clearly shows that his state of mind depends on his circumstances and influences. A different situation for Hisao could lead to a different response from him.

Not all of these pseudo-routes are written from Hisao's point of view either. It would be interesting to write from the point of Iwanako as she deals with her feelings, her love and guilt, and the choices she makes in order to deal with them. Writing a long distance relationship is also harder but it can also be dealt with in the context of his old life vs. his new life. Can you imagine how any of the routes in KS may have been different if at some point he had established regular contact with Iwanako or anyone else from back home?

Also summer could be a good starting point. He'd have about six weeks of time close to her to write in nor is the story limited that way. You can use as much of the year or as little of it as you need. The various KS authors didn't all use the same amount of time. The used the time needed to tell the story that they wanted to tell.

Cheers,
Mavensage

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Re: Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

Post by bhtooefr » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:44 pm

And, the letter was probably at Yamaku within a couple weeks of Hisao arriving there. It had been sitting around for a while before StuCo tried to deliver it, after Hanako's birthday party, which by ProfAllister's timeline would be still in June.
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Re: Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

Post by monkeywitha6pack » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:52 pm

I decided to drop the letter thing due to some timeline issues that happened when I used the letter for Hisao to become interests so I had Iwanako get his cell from his parents and call him feeling upset over what had happened and wanting to try again. But I still didn't give up on the letter and if I can make it work I will
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Re: Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

Post by Vindicator N » Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:01 pm

monkeywitha6pack wrote:I decided to drop the letter thing due to some timeline issues that happened when I used the letter for Hisao to become interests so I had Iwanako get his cell from his parents and call him feeling upset over what had happened and wanting to try again. But I still didn't give up on the letter and if I can make it work I will
Godspeed mate, just make sure you detail them enough to make it understandable and probably not confusing..
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Re: Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

Post by monkeywitha6pack » Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:05 pm

Well why I was thinking was doing something similar to what sisterhood did and every few chapters switching to Iwanako's perception and have her go through the thought or have flashbacks as her to show why she did what she did in the hospital and why she called Hisao to get a clean slate.
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Re: Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

Post by Silentcook » Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:25 pm

ONE (nulled) story post, followed by five pages of chatter, lots of which is REALLY pointless.

Am I the only one seeing the problem here? Hint: the correct answer is "no". :evil:
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Re: Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

Post by CaptainFalcon » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:18 pm

Personally I think once everything is done and dusted, arguments are solved and everything is sorted, this thread could possibly be deleted and then started over again once the author is properly ready to write the story. Just a suggestion though, but it seems the most logical thing to do, lest people get into more arguments and we end up with another 5 pages of chatter

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