Developments (Post-Lilly NE) [Complete, 2015-08-11]

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.59 posted 6/1

Post by Mirage_GSM » Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:23 pm

This is Emi, herself, recognizing that right here, right now, she's doing something that, in the past, she was never able to do. I hope I've shown over the course of the story the progression that got her here -- and if you don't think I have, then that's cool -- but in this case the fact that this felt "not Emi" (or, more precisely, "not VN!Emi") is actually kind of the point :).
Um, yes, but that's not really what I meant, though I realize I might not have been too clear about that.
I agree that Emi has grown and has realized stuff about herself and that she might have reached the conclusions she is talking about in that paragraph.
It's just that the way she's talking about them just doesn't sound like Emi but more like a graduate psychology student. Even if she has realized stuff about herself, I don't think she'd change her whole vocabulary that quickly.
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.59 posted 6/1

Post by dewelar » Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:10 pm

Mirage_GSM wrote:
This is Emi, herself, recognizing that right here, right now, she's doing something that, in the past, she was never able to do. I hope I've shown over the course of the story the progression that got her here -- and if you don't think I have, then that's cool -- but in this case the fact that this felt "not Emi" (or, more precisely, "not VN!Emi") is actually kind of the point :).
Um, yes, but that's not really what I meant, though I realize I might not have been too clear about that.
I agree that Emi has grown and has realized stuff about herself and that she might have reached the conclusions she is talking about in that paragraph.
It's just that the way she's talking about them just doesn't sound like Emi but more like a graduate psychology student. Even if she has realized stuff about herself, I don't think she'd change her whole vocabulary that quickly.
Hmmm...okay, I think I see what you mean now. I've edited that passage, and hopefully it feels more like it should. Thanks again!
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.59 posted 6/1

Post by Mirage_GSM » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:25 pm

Yes, that sounds MUCH more like Emi :-)
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

My collected KS-Fan Fictions: Mirage's Myths
griffon8 wrote:Kosher, just because sex is your answer to everything doesn't mean that sex is the answer to everything.
Sore wa himitsu desu.

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.59 posted 6/1

Post by Blank Mage » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:33 am

Oho? Are we done with drama now? I think we're done! It's all rainbows and high fives from here on out! Fantastic!

In all seriousness, good chapter. I'm a little sad to see all the ends getting tied up, I have to say, but I suppose it had to happen sooner or later.
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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.59 posted 6/1

Post by Leaty » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:49 pm

While I'm working on my comments for this chapter, Dewelar, I did you a thing.

Hopefully other people will add to it? I can only do so much before I burn out.

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.59 posted 6/1

Post by dewelar » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:05 pm

Leaty wrote:While I'm working on my comments for this chapter, Dewelar, I did you a thing.

Hopefully other people will add to it? I can only do so much before I burn out.
*does happy dance*

That. Is. Awesome. I...cannot even express how awesome that is. I can die happy now (although I won't, because I still have to finish this, and somehow pay you back for this...OTL)...

One minor point: I actually borrowed Nurse's name (with permission) from brythain's After the Dream series. Credit where it's due.
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Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.59 posted 6/1

Post by Leaty » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:08 pm

Whoops, fixed. Sorry, Brythain.

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.59 posted 6/1

Post by brythain » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:55 pm

Leaty wrote:While I'm working on my comments for this chapter, Dewelar, I did you a thing.

Hopefully other people will add to it? I can only do so much before I burn out.
That's a wonderful thing! And as for credit... without dewelar and others (and that includes you, Leaty), I think AtD would've been much worse. Heck, I mightn't have written it at all.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.59 posted 6/1

Post by Blasphemy » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:45 am

Too long, didn't read!

Nah, great job once again! You know, Lilly tutoring Emi seemed like too much of an awkward idea but this way, with Lilly trying out different methods as well figuring out if whether it's really the right profession for, it may just work out for them. Without 'ulterior motives' on Lilly's side that would otherwise end up being too uncomfortable I'd imagine.

It's interesting seeing Emi feel genuinely happy for Meiko's marriage with nurse when relationships between her mother and someone else were usually used as a conflict in other fanfics. Really though, I'd like to imagine this is how an Emi that empathizes with her mother would rather react, especially since she does like Nurse. If she just continues to treat him like before instead of some stepfather, she has no reason to be too averse to that.

Now what I'm really curious about is Hisao's intend to gain some proper closure from or perhaps even reconnect a bit to his former life and friends, especially Iwanako. There's too little Iwanako content for my taste anyways so I'm quite looking forward to this. Wonder how your rendition of Iwanako will look like. Wouldn't be surprised if she'll resemble Leaty's version but we shall see.

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.59 posted 6/1

Post by Leaty » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:20 pm

It feels like it's been fucking FOREVER since we last got back to Emi and Hisao. I don't think that says as much about your update speed as it does about how much of an emotional roller coaster the last couple chapters were (or maybe this is just a shitty time in my life, idk).

As an author, the fact that we are one chapter away from an Emi/Iwanako encounter... is a strange feeling for me. I'm so used to thinking of them as being in conflict—it is somewhat weird to have to get myself into that mindset that these characters are unconnected.

The interesting thing about Emi's reticence to see Hisao reopen communication with Iwanako is that I don't think it would work in the opposite direction—if, for whatever reason, Emi needed to talk to Hajime, I can't really imagine Hisao having any real qualms about it. Then again, I'm not really a Hisao expert; I chose the one plot where I had to write him as little as possible.

The revelation (such as it is) about Emi's experience with her friends was really interesting—a great mirror of Hanako, and depressingly realistic. I suspect this ties into your headcanon about why, exactly, Emi attends Yamaku, when, of all the characters in the story, she's the one most certain to have done completely fine at a normal school? Of course, Nurse being at Yamaku would have been a good reason, as well, and the proximity is convenient, given all her concern for her mother's well-being...
Dewelar writing Lilly wrote:"I understand. After all, you wouldn't be the first girl to be distracted by her tutor."
*snort*

This is why I usually open other fics as a Word document, or try to wrangle Beeline Reader into displaying them. On the boards I miss little connections like this and they're extremely satisfying.

The Lilly-traveling idea is interesting, because she mentions this idea came into her head after the conversation with her father. I'm guessing that, after that conversation, she's solidly arrived at the conclusion that she's been so fixated on what's expected of her that she never really took the time to second-guess her direction in life. Or, well, honestly... after everything that's happened with her, with her relationship (and both Hanako and Hisao kind of moving on, in a sense, from her), I'd feel aimless, too. I wouldn't blame her for wanderlust.

I'm not sure how to feel about Emi's revelation that she isn't good enough (or, at least, doesn't think she's good enough) to get a track scholarship. On one hand, it's an uncomfortable headcanon for me to have, and it may conflict with Summer's Clover, which I acknowledge as canon? But, on the other hand...

I almost think it's genius, if you consider the scene "Advanced Game Theory" in Shizune's route to be hinting at this. No, hear me out. Like, Hanako is pretty passionate about chess, and Shizune gives considerably fewer fucks about it, but beats her anyway (and was almost certainly holding back.)
Canon Shizune wrote:"Her feelings are real, but her feelings for the game aren't real."

"That means someone taught her."

"If you love chess that much, but you can't give it your all, it's because you love the memories attached to it and not the game; it's too precious to her to see as a tool for true competition."
We know that Emi is somewhat competitive—those track meets definitely matter to her—but when Lilly broaches the subject of her receiving money for it, potentially even making a career out of it, Emi withers. Whether or not it's true that she's not good enough for competitive running is really besides the point.

With Emi's admission to Lilly, we can imagine the events of "Advanced Game Theory" play out, but with Emi in the Hanako seat and Miki in the Shizune seat. The fact of the matter is that, to a large degree, running is to Emi what chess is to Hanako: a raw, emotional connection to a lost loved one (and, in both instances, their father.) If she did make a career out of running—what Shizune called "true competition," with all the sponsorships and capitalism or whatever that entails—she would be cheapening that connection. And it matters too much for that. Maybe it would be better for Emi, emotionally, to keep her running the way it is, and just blow people away at Breast Cancer Awareness marathons or whatever.

Anyway, if that's an intentional parallel, it's brilliant. Or maybe I just think it's brilliant because *I* noticed it and I'm amazing. Who knows.
Dewelar writing Emi wrote:I could just be a ronin for a year like you." I can say that playfully because don't really mean it. There are several reasons why it would leave a bad taste – one reason in particular
Heh. Took me a moment. Poor Hajime.

Oh, hey, one other thing—this story, in a lot of ways, completes the story arcs of every girl at Yamaku, in one way or another. (Which is why it needed to be so long—it sort of arrives at a Good End for FOUR characters, rather than one, and Miki's probably on the Suzu route so we've never had any need to worry about her.) The one exception to this, I highly suspect, is Rin—and her going to the Worry Tree in this chapter seems to reinforce that idea.

I'm trying to remember how the timelines play out here. Is she going to wind up starting the gallery for Nomiya? I mean, I know that's beyond the scope of this story, but it seems like you're foreshadowing it here by depicting her frustration at not being able to communicate with Hanako, and then later in the chapter where Emi seems concerned that Misaki isn't around, apropos of seemingly nothing.
Dewelar writing Emi wrote:I power-walk through the girls' dorm. When I get outside, I break into a run
*snort* Isn't learning things the easy way nice?
Dewelar writing Hisao wrote:this is the first time I've met the parents of a girl I was dating. I spoke with Lilly's mother briefly a couple of times, but I never even talked to Iwanako's parents."
*doublesnort* Kazuhito and Yoshizumi had no idea you existed, Hisao.

You know, speaking of parallels, this is two consecutive chapters now where moms have revealed they're getting remarried. I've mentioned that Mayoi and Meiko are reflections of each other in another analysis, but this strikes me as interesting: Mayoi's home, throughout the story, has been a refuge, and at the end, her getting married to Julia (and departing the country) is considered an upsetting turn of events. Meiko's home has consistently been a stressful location, but at the end, her getting married to Nurse (and becoming more emotionally fulfilled) is treated as a cause for celebration. It's interesting.

Also: very relieved to see Emi's conflict with her mother come to a resolution. You have no idea how badly I wanted that in the VN. And your Meiko backstory (particularly her suicidal ideations) are in perfect harmony with my own headcanon about her. (Also, again—while she has some strong parallels to Mayoi, I think there exists an even stronger reflection of her.)

I definitely liked this chapter more now that I'm sitting down and picking it apart at size 16 text—the first time I read it, my ADHD was kind of overwhelming and the only real takeaway I made at the end was that it felt short. But now that I'm thinking about it harder, I think there's a lot of excellent content here. It's just buried under a whole lot of subtlety.

Oh, one last thing: You probably know this, but the reason this chapter isn't getting a whole lot of reviews is partially because only the serial readers are in a position to speak on it—we're at a point now where (as with Tomorrow's Doom and After the Dream,) a lot of the archive readers can't catch up as quickly. It just kind of comes with the territory in a fandom this small.

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.59 posted 6/1

Post by HoneyBakedHam » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:39 pm

Or you, or the other forums veterans (or heroines, happy Leaty?), pretty much take what can be said and all we can do is just twiddle our thumbs after reading latest updates. :roll:
Last edited by HoneyBakedHam on Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.59 posted 6/1

Post by Leaty » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:50 pm

I prefer "forums heroine."

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.59 posted 6/1

Post by HoneyBakedHam » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:55 pm

Aren't you picky :P

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.59 posted 6/1

Post by Oscar Wildecat » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:01 pm

I've been remiss in not commenting on this story, but it seems that all the good comments have been taken. :wink: (That, and my life has been a bit hectic...)

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the well-fated meeting with Iwanako, as it will take the story of Hisao full circle from that ill-fated winter's day under the trees...

Seems a very appropriate way to bring a story to an end.
I like all the girls in KS, but empathize with Hanako the most.
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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.59 posted 6/1

Post by dewelar » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:41 pm

Again, thanks to all for the kind words!
Blasphemy wrote:Too long, didn't read!
Ha!
Nah, great job once again! You know, Lilly tutoring Emi seemed like too much of an awkward idea but this way, with Lilly trying out different methods as well figuring out if whether it's really the right profession for, it may just work out for them. Without 'ulterior motives' on Lilly's side that would otherwise end up being too uncomfortable I'd imagine.
*nods* That's about right.
It's interesting seeing Emi feel genuinely happy for Meiko's marriage with nurse when relationships between her mother and someone else were usually used as a conflict in other fanfics.
That's because in those other fics, the new husband typically isn't Nurse :). Usually they're pairing off Meiko with Some Random Guy as a way to manufacture drama -- and, honestly, I do think Emi wouldn't react very well to that, so while it's cheap, at least it's cheap in a way that makes sense.
Now what I'm really curious about is Hisao's intend to gain some proper closure from or perhaps even reconnect a bit to his former life and friends, especially Iwanako. There's too little Iwanako content for my taste anyways so I'm quite looking forward to this. Wonder how your rendition of Iwanako will look like. Wouldn't be surprised if she'll resemble Leaty's version but we shall see.
Well, I'm on record as saying that Leaty's done a great job with creating a fully-realized Iwanako, and it's impossible for me not to be influenced by it. On the other hand, even if I used the exact same character, the differences would be quite vast due to mine, you know, not having had a heart attack and an extended hospital stay to splash ginormous swaths of paint onto her personality.
Leaty wrote:It feels like it's been fucking FOREVER since we last got back to Emi and Hisao. I don't think that says as much about your update speed as it does about how much of an emotional roller coaster the last couple chapters were (or maybe this is just a shitty time in my life, idk).
A little of all of those, perhaps.
The interesting thing about Emi's reticence to see Hisao reopen communication with Iwanako is that I don't think it would work in the opposite direction—if, for whatever reason, Emi needed to talk to Hajime, I can't really imagine Hisao having any real qualms about it. Then again, I'm not really a Hisao expert; I chose the one plot where I had to write him as little as possible.
It's true that Hisao really doesn't have to deal with this sort of thing in canon. We know that neither Lilly nor Hanako have ever had boyfriends, and there's no indication that Shizune (my own hint to the contrary notwithstanding) or Rin have, either. How he would react would probably depend on the route, too (Lilly!Hisao would be understanding but anxious, Shizune!Hisao would brood, Rin!Hisao would get angry, etc.)

Also, Emi's reaction has a lot to do with her own insecurity (from which she's still recovering) and the newness of their relationship. If this had happened, say, over Winter Break in four months, she probably wouldn't have cared.
Dewelar writing Lilly wrote:"I understand. After all, you wouldn't be the first girl to be distracted by her tutor."
*snort*

This is why I usually open other fics as a Word document, or try to wrangle Beeline Reader into displaying them. On the boards I miss little connections like this and they're extremely satisfying.
Thanks. There are a lot of things like this sprinkled around this story, and when somebody spots one I can't help but :).
The Lilly-traveling idea is interesting, because she mentions this idea came into her head after the conversation with her father. I'm guessing that, after that conversation, she's solidly arrived at the conclusion that she's been so fixated on what's expected of her that she never really took the time to second-guess her direction in life. Or, well, honestly... after everything that's happened with her, with her relationship (and both Hanako and Hisao kind of moving on, in a sense, from her), I'd feel aimless, too. I wouldn't blame her for wanderlust.
Mainly the first, but a little bit of the second. Since she's always wanted to teach, she's never really taken the opportunity to explore anything else. By the way, this also plays into why she was so disappointed that Hanako never went on her trip with N&N, even if she didn't realize it herself at the time.
I'm not sure how to feel about Emi's revelation that she isn't good enough (or, at least, doesn't think she's good enough) to get a track scholarship. On one hand, it's an uncomfortable headcanon for me to have, and it may conflict with Summer's Clover, which I acknowledge as canon?
This is actually one of the reasons why I've chosen to put Summer's Clover aside, because its quasi-canon conflicted with parts of my own, already-developed headcanon.
But, on the other hand...

...stuff about vocation vs. avocation.
*nods* Emi loves to run, of course. Part of that is because of her father, and part of that is the desire to compete (and win), and so on. However, she also "runs for love", if you will. She wants to do it because she wants to do it, not because she has to do it, which she feels would take away from the sheer joy she gets from running. As for how this pertains to her statement about Miki...I'll let folks interpret that as they will.
Oh, hey, one other thing—this story, in a lot of ways, completes the story arcs of every girl at Yamaku, in one way or another. (Which is why it needed to be so long—it sort of arrives at a Good End for FOUR characters, rather than one, and Miki's probably on the Suzu route so we've never had any need to worry about her.)
Well, I've been saying all along that this story has multiple protagonists, and therefore is about all of them.

Oh, and that's one place where Suriko and I mesh: Miki is bi, so she might be on the Suzu route, or perhaps that guy from the swim team I mentioned back in Chapter 4.
The one exception to this, I highly suspect, is Rin—and her going to the Worry Tree in this chapter seems to reinforce that idea.

I'm trying to remember how the timelines play out here. Is she going to wind up starting the gallery for Nomiya? I mean, I know that's beyond the scope of this story, but it seems like you're foreshadowing it here by depicting her frustration at not being able to communicate with Hanako, and then later in the chapter where Emi seems concerned that Misaki isn't around, apropos of seemingly nothing.
In canon, Rin's exhibition takes place just before summer break. However, it seemed that it only took place then because of the timing of Rin agreeing to do it. In Developments, Rin was still hemming and hawing about said agreement, and (since she didn't have Hisao pushing her into it) her creating works for Hisao and Hanako was implicitly part of her decision-making process to decide whether she was ready to do it. Her arc is not one that will be resolved here :(.
You know, speaking of parallels, this is two consecutive chapters now where moms have revealed they're getting remarried. I've mentioned that Mayoi and Meiko are reflections of each other in another analysis, but this strikes me as interesting: Mayoi's home, throughout the story, has been a refuge, and at the end, her getting married to Julia (and departing the country) is considered an upsetting turn of events. Meiko's home has consistently been a stressful location, but at the end, her getting married to Nurse (and becoming more emotionally fulfilled) is treated as a cause for celebration. It's interesting.
Indeed :).
I definitely liked this chapter more now that I'm sitting down and picking it apart at size 16 text—the first time I read it, my ADHD was kind of overwhelming and the only real takeaway I made at the end was that it felt short. But now that I'm thinking about it harder, I think there's a lot of excellent content here. It's just buried under a whole lot of subtlety.
Yeah, sometimes I think I'm too subtle for my own good. For instance, there are shout-outs to a couple more fics than you mentioned on the TVTropes page, but nobody's noticed them.
Oh, one last thing: You probably know this, but the reason this chapter isn't getting a whole lot of reviews is partially because only the serial readers are in a position to speak on it—we're at a point now where (as with Tomorrow's Doom and After the Dream,) a lot of the archive readers can't catch up as quickly. It just kind of comes with the territory in a fandom this small.
Yeah, that's probably part of it. Also, I expect there are some folks who are waiting until it's complete to comment. Also also, this is an Emi-PoV chapter, and historically those have drawn fewer comments. It's all good :).

Speaking of which...
Oscar Wildecat wrote:I've been remiss in not commenting on this story, but it seems that all the good comments have been taken. :wink:
:P

Good to see you back anyway :wink:.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the well-fated meeting with Iwanako, as it will take the story of Hisao full circle from that ill-fated winter's day under the trees...

Seems a very appropriate way to bring a story to an end.
Glad you think so :).
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!

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