Developments (Post-Lilly NE) [Complete, 2015-08-11]

[Leaty]

First of all, thanks to all for the...well, perhaps not quite so kind words as usual, eh? A couple neutral comments and a...qualified positive? Eh, I'll take it. It's better than getting ripped apart like I've seen some other H-scenes get, but I guess it probably means this chapter didn't work all that well. Still, I had to try it at least once. I don't have any more planned, so take heart!

Never update on a Sunday. These forums are dead on weekends.

I'll provide my commentary as soon as I can, but I'm working on the other thing (you know the thing,) and that's the thing.

[Oscar Wildecat]

"I brought some more of those squares so that we can...heh...mount the poster."

"So, you're saying things are about to get sticky?"

So, Emi and Hisao were walking the plank (so to speak) in the sorry corner.

I think this was one of the more tastefully written "adult content" scenes I've read. It got across what the couple were doing without being overly lemony about it.

We never spoke after that, but Misaki told me he wound up becoming a ronin this year. Despite it all, I don't really hate him, I just feel sorry for him, and I hope things work out. Thinking back on it, maybe I really was a little lonely back then, and I might've strung him along a little. I just never felt a real connection with him, and in the end, he was just someone to pass the time with.

I wonder if Hisao thinks of Lilly like that...

I wonder too. I would imagine that if one got Neutral End Hisao and Good End Hisao in a Rin-space somewhere and let them sort out what went wrong versus what went right, one would find that it did boil down to connectivity.

[forgetmenot]

Taking a break from Kagami to comment.

I want to preface what I'm about to say with the following: the actual chapter is well-written. And some parts definitely do enhance the whole story. I can see your reasoning for wanting to keep it.

I think it's the nature of healthy, happy sex in the context of a two-party romantic relationship that doesn't translate well to prose. I mean the actual description of the act. And I think it's this way for two reasons:

1. Prose is so incredibly divorced from anything regarding this kind of sexual experience. Think about it - sex is touch and sight and smell and sound. It's probably one of the most basic sensory acts humans can participate in. Prose is more high-functioning; it's character development and plot progression. These are less-than-basal concepts. And unless your sex scene is doing one of those two things (which, as well-written as yours is, doesn't really change Emi or Hisao, nor does it put them in a particularly different place in their relationship), the actual sex can be implied and still have the same effect.

As a side note, I think the reason some of the more - ahem - gratuitous sex scenes work as well as they do in the VN is because it's not an entirely prose-based medium. Who knows how well this particular chapter might have worked if it were in that format.

2. Tying in with what I was saying earlier, I think in order for pure sex scenes in prose to work (outside of straight-up erotica), they really have to develop character or move the plot along. When that doesn't happen, what we're left with is an almost voyeuristic window into a pretty intimate act between a couple. It's not creepy, per se, but it does inspire feelings that lead to questions such as, "Why am I here? Why am I reading what I'm reading?" For Emi and Hisao, this encounter is important to them as a couple. As a reader? Eh. I know what sex is. I know most couples have it. And I know, in a healthy situation, it can lead to the strengthening of a bond between two people. All of that could have been said in much less space, and honestly my reaction as a reader would probably have been stronger. A description of their post-coitus disarray engages the reader much more than a painstaking description of Emi's buttocks.

This isn't to say it was badly written. Nor is it even to say that I'm not guilty of some of the same mistakes myself. Just my own observations. Lewd for lewd's sake is fine, but I'm not entirely sure it works here.

Christ on a crutch, I probably sound like a curmudgeon with how much I complain about this story. Trust me, I wouldn't whine if I didn't care as much as I do. Looking forward to future updates.

[dewelar]

Hmmm...if you say this...

And unless your sex scene is doing one of those two things (which, as well-written as yours is, doesn't really change Emi or Hisao, nor does it put them in a particularly different place in their relationship)

...then I definitely failed here. Well, shit. Happy 1,000th post, me.

Christ on a crutch, I probably sound like a curmudgeon with how much I complain about this story. Trust me, I wouldn't whine if I didn't care as much as I do. Looking forward to future updates.

Heh, no worries. I think I understand where you're coming from. I'm often harsher on the stories I think are better, because my expectations are higher.

[dewelar]

Hmmm...if you say this...

And unless your sex scene is doing one of those two things (which, as well-written as yours is, doesn't really change Emi or Hisao, nor does it put them in a particularly different place in their relationship)

...then I definitely failed here. Well, shit.

Yeah...this is keeping me awake right now, and I pretty much haven't slept since I posted this. No, this wasn't meant to change Emi. It was meant to emphasize how she's changed up to this point. Is that not valid? Is it really just superfluous? Or did it not communicate that well enough? I'm just...yeah, maybe just tired, but this is eating at me.

[brythain]

Yeah...this is keeping me awake right now, and I pretty much haven't slept since I posted this. No, this wasn't meant to change Emi. It was meant to emphasize how she's changed up to this point. Is that not valid? Is it really just superfluous? Or did it not communicate that well enough? I'm just...yeah, maybe just tired, but this is eating at me.

It's not a bad scene, as forgetmenot actually says. It's just that it seems to... aha, maybe. Will PM you on this, because I'm not sure how accurate I am.

[Mahorfeus]

Uh. I am really not sure what the big deal is. The H-scene didn't seem like it was written in such a way that it was meant to be titillating. Hell, it was actually one of the more tasteful (or as Mirage said, elegant) sex scenes I've seen written in a fanfic. I thought that Emi's thoughts during the entirely thing were the more important part, and that they showed how she is now willing to "meet him in the middle."

[dewelar]

Uh. I am really not sure what the big deal is. The H-scene didn't seem like it was written in such a way that it was meant to be titillating. Hell, it was actually one of the more tasteful (or as Mirage said, elegant) sex scenes I've seen written in a fanfic. I thought that Emi's thoughts during the entirely thing were the more important part, and that they showed how she is now willing to "meet him in the middle."

*breathes sigh of relief* Okay, so I didn't miss the mark for everyone . Thanks, Mahorfeus.

[forgetmenot]

Uh. I am really not sure what the big deal is. The H-scene didn't seem like it was written in such a way that it was meant to be titillating. Hell, it was actually one of the more tasteful (or as Mirage said, elegant) sex scenes I've seen written in a fanfic. I thought that Emi's thoughts during the entirely thing were the more important part, and that they showed how she is now willing to "meet him in the middle."

*breathes sigh of relief* Okay, so I didn't miss the mark for everyone . Thanks, Mahorfeus.

Ah. I guess I had gathered that meeting Hisao closer to the middle was how Emi was feeling beforehand - it didn't really seem like any new information was being presented, but there is always the possibility that I'm wrong. I agree that focusing on Emi's thoughts was definitely the way to go vis a vis keeping it classy/in line with how you've been writing so far. Again, it's not so much a consistency thing - I thought the chapter was well-written, just as they always are - I guess my personal opinion is that if you're going to painstakingly construct a sex scene with little to no dramatic consequence, you could probably expend that effort elsewhere and get more bang for your buck (haha, bang).

PM me if you'd like to continue discussing the pitfalls and merits of describing teenagers engaging in coitus. Also, go to sleep.

[imgurKnight]

Hmmm...if you say this...

And unless your sex scene is doing one of those two things (which, as well-written as yours is, doesn't really change Emi or Hisao, nor does it put them in a particularly different place in their relationship)

...then I definitely failed here. Well, shit.

Yeah...this is keeping me awake right now, and I pretty much haven't slept since I posted this. No, this wasn't meant to change Emi. It was meant to emphasize how she's changed up to this point. Is that not valid? Is it really just superfluous? Or did it not communicate that well enough? I'm just...yeah, maybe just tired, but this is eating at me.

I don't think it's strictly necessary for everything to advance a character or the plot, you can use a scene to establish the current state of things. Especially in a story about a somewhat normal life, it's perfectly reasonable to have down time. The scene itself was fine, although it perhaps could have been shorter. It wasn't awkward porn writing and it didn't feel too much like a jarring leap into erotica for arousal's sake.

I'd also object to some of the points in the original post in a broader sense but that's not especially relevant to the case at hand.

[Oscar Wildecat]

I don't think it's strictly necessary for everything to advance a character or the plot, you can use a scene to establish the current state of things.

That's my thinking as well. This chapter, in particular, had a "then and now" vibe to it. It conveyed a good sense of what Haji's Bad End route with Emi would have been as compared to what Hisao's Good End (Developments style) was.

As far the H-content goes, we know from the VN that Emi is perhaps the most "sexually aware" of the girls, with the possible exception of Lilly. So, my feeling is that any long-form fiction that involves Hisao (or an OC) getting involved with Emi needs to address this sexual awareness. And, as I said earlier, this chapter does so very tastefully and with a proper balance of plot and action.

[Mirage_GSM]

Well, I don't think this H-scene would have been strictly neccessary, but you should take that with a grain of salt, since I've been known to voice the opinion that none of the H-scenes in the VN except for Hanako's were strictly neccessary.
It is still better written than 9 out of 10 of the h-scenes around here and probably better than some in the VN as well.

[bhtooefr]

I didn't find it a bad H-scene, but it didn't particularly stand out either.

And, yes, there's some bad ones in the VN. I'm sorry, the word "pistoning" ruins an H-scene.

[dewelar]

Okay, so...sorry for getting a bit weird last night, and thanks for all who offered kind words before and since then.

I'll provide my commentary as soon as I can, but I'm working on the other thing (you know the thing,) and that's the thing.

Ah. Yes. The Thing. A good thing, too.

Taking a break from Kagami to comment.

Now there's some good news!

I don't think it's strictly necessary for everything to advance a character or the plot, you can use a scene to establish the current state of things.

That's my thinking as well. This chapter, in particular, had a "then and now" vibe to it. It conveyed a good sense of what Haji's Bad End route with Emi would have been as compared to what Hisao's Good End (Developments style) was.

Yeah, this is all pretty much in line with what I intended. Thanks, both of you!

Next chapter won't be out until after the holidays, I expect, but I hope to have a little bonus material posted before then!

[HoneyBakedHam]

Hello there, dewelar. Finally registered onto the site, but had been following this as a guest reader since Ch 41. I'm loving your work and I hope things work out for Hanako and she finds love, also.