Developments (Post-Lilly NE) [Complete, 2015-08-11]

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HipsterJoe
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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.60 posted 8/3

Post by HipsterJoe » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:57 pm

Wow... I don't really have anything insightful to add. Beautifully written as always. I'm not sure I'm ready to live in a world without further Developments updates.

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Mahorfeus
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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.60 posted 8/3

Post by Mahorfeus » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:51 pm

Well done, as usual! :P

Kneejerk reaction: Hisao's mom is a bitch.

Stepping back a little. Her attitude is very... Japanese? I'm with Hoitash. The depiction is realistic, but if I had to be perfectly honest, it's not the kind of conflict that I wanted this late in the story.The interesting circumstances of Hisao's birth (Leaty brainstormed on how to make Hisao more interesting in that one thread) explains her behavior, but it doesn't justify it. But alas, that's life. At the very least, her honesty is appreciated, and she's apparently well aware of her flaws and willing to at least try to change. It would have been too easy for her to quietly harbor that resentment towards Emi for years and years, until it became vitriolic.

I still very much enjoyed the chapter. I hate drawing comparisons between fanfics, but I am inevitably compelled to mention Weekend at Hisao's. In that story it was so easy for Hisao to pull things back together; his realization that he was at fault was all he needed to return things to the way they were, except better. And I enjoyed that. But in this story Hisao returns home having already learned that lesson - and it's not enough. Things have changed too much since he left. The contrast is shocking, really. I can't find fault with either story for their interpretations of what happened, and that makes me glad. But I guess that's what happens when you're working with some blank slates. :wink:
"A very small degree of hope is sufficient to cause the birth of love." -Stendhal
The verdict is (finally) in:
Hanako > Rin > Emi > Lilly = Shizune

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.60 posted 8/3

Post by azumeow » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:44 pm

Am I the only one who thinks Hisao's getting a really bad rap here? I mean...come on. Okay, the guy withdrew and it was a bit shitty, but he nearly died, then had to spend the next few months basically as a prisoner in a hospital room, not knowing if he'd ever get to have a remotely normal life. Shin had the right idea. Hisao admitted that he could have done better, and the dude just shrugs and says "yeah, don't worry about it dude."

I'm mainly looking at Mai here. Alright, yeah, stick up for Iwanako, sure, but that doesn't mean you have to sandbag Hisao too.
"I don’t want to be here anymore, I know there’s nothing left worth staying for.
Your paradise is something I’ve endured
See I don’t think I can fight this anymore, I’m listening with one foot out the door
And something has to die to be reborn-I don’t want to be here anymore"

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.60 posted 8/3

Post by CaptainFalcon » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:07 am

Congrats for reaching 60 chapters! I have to say that in all honesty, this is easily one of my top 3 favourite fan fics on this site, right along with Scissorlips's Suzu route and Thanatos's Akira route. Thank you for producing something so moving and amazing :)

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.60 posted 8/3

Post by Blank Mage » Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:51 am

Mahorfeus wrote:But I guess that's what happens when you're working with some blank slates. :wink:
Wait, what are- oh you didn't mean, right, nevermind.
And we're back.
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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.60 posted 8/3

Post by Mirage_GSM » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:43 am

Well, congrats on reaching the end of the main story, I guess.

I agree with Mahorfeus that the story didn't need to have this kind of heavy conflict introduced this late in, and with azumeow that Mai is a bit hard on Hisao, but other than that it was a fitting conclusion to a great story.
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

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griffon8 wrote:Kosher, just because sex is your answer to everything doesn't mean that sex is the answer to everything.
Sore wa himitsu desu.

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.60 posted 8/3

Post by brythain » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:57 am

Mirage_GSM wrote:Well, congrats on reaching the end of the main story, I guess.

I agree with Mahorfeus that the story didn't need to have this kind of heavy conflict introduced this late in, and with azumeow that Mai is a bit hard on Hisao, but other than that it was a fitting conclusion to a great story.
It's not over yet! There's gonna be a grand finale! Yay!
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.60 posted 8/2

Post by dewelar » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:24 pm

First of all, thanks to all for the kind words! I saw a couple names I didn't recognize, so welcome to any and all joining us at the end!
SirKaid wrote:As much as a part of me always cries out "more, more!" a solid conclusion to an enjoyable tale is always a joy to see. There's no question in my mind that this will be that, so I shall look to Monday with eager anticipation.
Hopefully it was worth the wait for you!
brythain wrote:Next? Next?! That can't be all?! Surely?
Well, as you note yourself, there is at least one more piece to put in place. Beyond that, no promises.
Aww, I really loved this last (no, not last?!) chapter.
Thank you kindly.
Argh. I can see all the bits Leaty put you up to. "大道寺" indeed. :D
Well, as names go, I tend to gravitate toward those that bear the most weight in fanon (with some exceptions), so there you are :).
Will digest and then resume. Thanks so very much!
Looking forward to it, and you're welcome!
Hoitash wrote:You know, it's always interesting to read people's views of Hisao's parents.

your interpretation was... realistic to a degree that I find disheartening, but that's a personal problem. Excellent work, excellent chapter, and glad to see you back.
Thanks. Writing this chapter was draining on a number of levels, at least in part due to the characterization I chose here. For the most part, I've striven for realism in this story, and for me this was how it worked in my head.
Oscar Wildecat wrote:But, what immediately stood out to me was the contrast between Hisao's new environment ("Mother of the Year" :roll: :x notwithstanding) and his old. Hisao's old town felt so disjointed -- for the lack of a better term -- compared to Yamaku.

To elaborate, while the relationship matrix of Yamaku has shaken up over the course of the story, and a few major breaks have occurred, what's come out of it seems to be a new and hopefully better whole. On the other hand, back in Tokyo, things have seemed to fallen apart completely, with the exception of Iwanako and Mai.
Interesting observation :wink:. For me, this is all about Hisao. Whatever else he is, he tends to be the one who draws people to him. It makes sense, then, that the converse might also be true.
forgetmenot wrote:Hisao's conversation with Iwanako was sublime. I wish it had lasted a bit longer.
Thanks. I have a feeling that this Hisao and this Iwanako are much more compatible than their pre-heart attack counterparts, even if it is just as friends.
Mahorfeus wrote:Kneejerk reaction: Hisao's mom is a bitch.
*laughs*
Stepping back a little. Her attitude is very... Japanese?
*nods* That's where I was aiming, trying for an old-school Japanese family dynamic with the Nakai's. Hopefully I did it reasonably well.
I'm with Hoitash. The depiction is realistic, but if I had to be perfectly honest, it's not the kind of conflict that I wanted this late in the story.
Understandable, but given the structure of the story it was pretty much the only place I could put it. From fairly early on, I knew I wanted to close with Hisao returning home, and this kind of confrontation couldn't really happen on the phone.
The interesting circumstances of Hisao's birth (Leaty brainstormed on how to make Hisao more interesting in that one thread) explains her behavior, but it doesn't justify it. But alas, that's life. At the very least, her honesty is appreciated, and she's apparently well aware of her flaws and willing to at least try to change. It would have been too easy for her to quietly harbor that resentment towards Emi for years and years, until it became vitriolic.
That's one way of viewing that scene, true :wink:.
comparison with WaH
I always thought Hisao got off too easily in that particular fic. Whatever else you want to include in this continuity from Bantamweights, one thing that definitely carries over is that Mai and Iwanako have been friends for a long time, and at least here Mai is something of a Mama Bear. Also, Mai is at least softening by the end of the chapter, so there's that :).
CaptainFalcon wrote:Congrats for reaching 60 chapters! I have to say that in all honesty, this is easily one of my top 3 favourite fan fics on this site, right along with Scissorlips's Suzu route and Thanatos's Akira route. Thank you for producing something so moving and amazing :)
Thanks very much! That's some pretty good company I'm keeping!
Mirage_GSM wrote:Well, congrats on reaching the end of the main story, I guess.
Thanks, I guess :wink:.
I agree with Mahorfeus that the story didn't need to have this kind of heavy conflict introduced this late in, and with azumeow that Mai is a bit hard on Hisao, but other than that it was a fitting conclusion to a great story.
Admittedly, there is a secondary reason for having a conflict this late, which is the nature of the story itself. Developments being a slice-of-life story stylistically, just because it's ending doesn't mean that these people aren't still going to be growing and facing challenges later on. There are a lot more stories left to tell of their lives -- all of them.
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.60 posted 8/3

Post by Feurox » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:18 pm

So wow I haven't posted in this thread for I think 2 years. Not that I haven't been following, I suppose just not feeling my input was needed and to that degree I don't think it is now either. You were a pretty great writer from the start so it's not like it's been a massive journey of self-improvement, and the main narrative idea that you had planned right from the get-go has been existent clear from the start to its end. So 60 main chapters later and we're here. That's worthy of a pretty big slap on the back, powerful enough to give you scoliosis. Developments has been a pretty good title honestly, since that's how the overall tone has felt to me throughout. Reading often left me with a swinging arm prepped for a dewelar size narrative curve-ball, and as strong as that arm is and was, the twists and turns of this story still stumped me out about 60 different times. And that's how I would have to summarize developments, other than bloody good. A fantastic read that'll have you engaged and emotionally exhausted. I'd agree with the others that this late conflict was interesting but ultimately a little jarring, but then again you don't seem to do things by halves. Truthfully that's how I'd describe quite a few scenes during developments, deep and interesting conflicts that are both fascinatingly satisfying and uncomfortable. It'd be pretty easy to separate yourself from Yamaku but developments captures what many fics fail to do, and really feel like real people making real choices, no black and whites. So I guess thanks, it's been a pleasure from the start.

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.60 posted 8/3

Post by HoneyBakedHam » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:51 pm

2 years, 60 chapters, and 100 pages...Dewelar, you are easily one of our legendary writers. Even if you were to no longer do any more stories, we will always be grateful for this lengthy read that was completely worth the patience and determination to follow this saga.

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.60 posted 8/3

Post by SirKaid » Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:56 am

Hopefully it was worth the wait for you!
Indubidably.

I have to say, I really like this chapter. Both in and of itself, and in the context of the whole, this works really well. An ongoing theme of the story has been that life moves on and you can't stay in place regardless of how you might want to. This homecoming really sells that theme hard - not just in how Hisao's old friends have changed, but in how Hisao himself has changed. It's true what they say; you can never go home again, because the "you" that left is not the "you" that returns.

It also makes thematic sense for the thing with Hisao's mom to spring up far too late to be resolved in this story. In life there is no such thing as a clean ending, so you have to just keep on going regardless. I find it interesting that Hisao's mom focused on the undignified way that Emi rushed to Hisao's aid and not on the fact that she didn't hesitate at all, even though she would be naked in front of her boyfriend's parents, even though it would be embarrassing and uncomfortable. The language she used struck me as well - there was real disgust simmering there. I'm impressed.

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.60 posted 8/3

Post by dewelar » Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:41 pm

First, thanks for the continuing flow of kind words!
Feurox wrote:developments captures what many fics fail to do, and really feel like real people making real choices, no black and whites.
I'm very glad you feel that way. It's always nice to read that you accomplished something you set out to do :).
HoneyBakedHam wrote:2 years, 60 chapters, and 100 pages...Dewelar, you are easily one of our legendary writers.
Heh...thanks. I'm honored.
Even if you were to no longer do any more stories, we will always be grateful for this lengthy read that was completely worth the patience and determination to follow this saga.
*nods* Once I finish the epilogue for this, I think I need a break from KS-related stuff for a while. I've been trying to read other fanfics these past few days, and it's been difficult to get my own versions far enough out of my head to appreciate them properly. It's...a little weird, TBH.
SirKaid wrote:
Hopefully it was worth the wait for you!
Indubidably.
Glad to hear it!
I have to say, I really like this chapter. Both in and of itself, and in the context of the whole, this works really well.
Thanks very much.
An ongoing theme of the story has been that life moves on and you can't stay in place regardless of how you might want to. This homecoming really sells that theme hard - not just in how Hisao's old friends have changed, but in how Hisao himself has changed. It's true what they say; you can never go home again, because the "you" that left is not the "you" that returns.

It also makes thematic sense for the thing with Hisao's mom to spring up far too late to be resolved in this story. In life there is no such thing as a clean ending, so you have to just keep on going regardless.
These two points tie into each other, really. Hisao's reaction to his mother, in contrast to what it might have been prior to this point, is very important for that reason.
I find it interesting that Hisao's mom focused on the undignified way that Emi rushed to Hisao's aid and not on the fact that she didn't hesitate at all, even though she would be naked in front of her boyfriend's parents, even though it would be embarrassing and uncomfortable. The language she used struck me as well - there was real disgust simmering there. I'm impressed.
*nods* This scene was at least partially inspired by real-life events, although in my case I was in Emi's position. It's a long story that thankfully did not involve heart attacks, so I'll just leave it at that.
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.60 posted 8/2

Post by brythain » Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:44 pm

dewelar wrote:Developments being a slice-of-life story stylistically, just because it's ending doesn't mean that these people aren't still going to be growing and facing challenges later on. There are a lot more stories left to tell of their lives -- all of them.
I so want to collaborate with you when you come out of your post-KS break, and write the great KS Novel — 'After the Developments'. 8) :lol:
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.60 posted 8/3

Post by Blank Mage » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:04 pm

Well, I'm reluctant to congratulate the end of the story until I read the epilogue, simply because I'd hate to reiterate some four-odd paragraphs of praise. So, for now, I'll hold off, and content myself by commenting solely on chapter 60, which is still longer than everything I've put together combined, and straight-up humbling in it's cohesion. It's something I've always particularly envied about Developments, your ability to keep your story engaging and entertaining without dragging on or springing absurd plot devices. But I'm doing it already, aren't I? Damn.

I read Leaty's piece before this one, and I feel like it was the right choice; it put much-appreciated context to Iwanako and Mai's friendship, and it's easier to digest as a 'before and after' than an 'after and before'. I admit, it left me rather dreading the confrontation, because it paints such a bleak picture, even despite it's relatively upbeat ending. So I was more than a little surprised to see how she's matured since then, and I found myself enjoying the dual nature of Hisao and Iwanako's growth, seeing Iwanako moving forward in her own way, and having both realize that they have lost and gained much in the last few months. It's a little sad, though, to see that unlike Hisao, Iwanako seems to have gotten a little colder in her interactions, and she was never all that warm to begin with. At this point, maybe I'm reading too far into the limited dialogue we get...? (Or I just love cold-yet-secretly-lonely characters.)

Hisao's dad seems like a cool dude, although it strikes me as a little odd that Hisao would turn out as casual as he's presented when raised by such formal and distant parents. School influence, I guess? Nevertheless, I like the quiet dignity he maintains, even when carrying a legless, mostly naked high schooler around. I mean, that takes class. It speaks of good parenting when you have the authority to demand respect and still encourage open and honest discussions at the same time. He reminds me a lot of Mr. Satou from Sisterhood, the Ideal Japanese Gentleman, and I wonder if the two of them might not get along at a workplace social at some point. "I sincerly regret that my daughter proved a source of strife for your son." "It was an unfortunate situation for all involved. Indeed, I would even beg your forgiveness for my son's actions."

Which brings us to the unfortunate matter of Mrs. Nakai. As has been stated, the knee jerk reaction is that she's kind of an ass, but I endeavor at all times to maintain a rational and impartial view. What I came up with was a little interesting; from a strictly practical standpoint, having legs may actually be the difference between life or death when it comes to Hisao. There is credence to the argument. However, what Mrs. Nakai fails to realize is that Emi has her legs throughout the day, and that during these times, she's actually far faster than Iwanako could ever be. The hypothetical situations wherein Emi fails are limited exclusively to 'mornings and showers where a phone is on a counter or something and no one else is around'. It's actually a very weak argument. Also, why should it be Emi's responsibility to see to Hisao exclusively? Why not expend that energy getting Hisao to take better care of himself, rather than try to rope Iwanako into doing it for him? If you're looking at Iwanako solely as a quasi EMT, why not try to ship him with the more-reliable and level-headed Mai? So, I saw her point, for about forty seconds, and then found a massive slew of counter-arguments. Also, she's kind of an ass.

And it was weird that we didn't see karma stick it to her. I guess that's the point, and I respect you for the realism in that regard, that issues are never solved overnight, in a bout of armor-piercing, eye widening, laser-guided yelling. At least not in real life. I have to admit, I was really hoping to see Mrs. Nakai take a hard shot of truth, grimacing at the burn of 70%-by-volume distilled morals. But hey, if Hisao doesn't need that kind of validation, then he's a better man than I.

One thing I didn't really agree with was the kind of sudden and conveinent heart flutter Hisao has. He's been through far worse than a minor yelling match, and it seemed like an easy plot device t have him pass out due to some raised voices, especially when Mrs. Nakai says something straight up RAGE inducing later on, to no effect. It's only a little random, and it didn't seem particularly vital to the plot to include it... *shrug*
"I probably shouldn't tell you this, but I think you should know. The day she stopped going to the hospital, Iwanako kinda had a breakdown..."
HA!
And we're back.
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"I wish I could convey to you just how socially inept I am, but I can't."
"I think you just did."
"No, I really, truly haven't."

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Re: Developments (Post-Lilly Neutral End) - Ch.60 posted 8/3

Post by dewelar » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:40 pm

Blank Mage wrote:Well, I'm reluctant to congratulate the end of the story until I read the epilogue, simply because I'd hate to reiterate some four-odd paragraphs of praise. So, for now, I'll hold off, and content myself by commenting solely on chapter 60, which is still longer than everything I've put together combined, and straight-up humbling in it's cohesion. It's something I've always particularly envied about Developments, your ability to keep your story engaging and entertaining without dragging on or springing absurd plot devices. But I'm doing it already, aren't I? Damn.
*laughs* You know something, Blank Mage? You've got style. Thanks.
I read Leaty's piece before this one, and I feel like it was the right choice; it put much-appreciated context to Iwanako and Mai's friendship, and it's easier to digest as a 'before and after' than an 'after and before'. I admit, it left me rather dreading the confrontation, because it paints such a bleak picture, even despite it's relatively upbeat ending. So I was more than a little surprised to see how she's matured since then, and I found myself enjoying the dual nature of Hisao and Iwanako's growth, seeing Iwanako moving forward in her own way, and having both realize that they have lost and gained much in the last few months. It's a little sad, though, to see that unlike Hisao, Iwanako seems to have gotten a little colder in her interactions, and she was never all that warm to begin with. At this point, maybe I'm reading too far into the limited dialogue we get...? (Or I just love cold-yet-secretly-lonely characters.)
Yeah, it's really hard to say what Iwanako was like pre-confession, because what we get is colored by many things. I'm not sure I'd characterize her as cold here so much as distant, and intentionally so.
Hisao's dad seems like a cool dude, although it strikes me as a little odd that Hisao would turn out as casual as he's presented when raised by such formal and distant parents. School influence, I guess?
Something along those lines, yeah. Hisao himself admits that he barely knows his father, and he spend most of his formative years hanging around with Shin.
Nevertheless, I like the quiet dignity he maintains, even when carrying a legless, mostly naked high schooler around. I mean, that takes class. It speaks of good parenting when you have the authority to demand respect and still encourage open and honest discussions at the same time. He reminds me a lot of Mr. Satou from Sisterhood, the Ideal Japanese Gentleman, and I wonder if the two of them might not get along at a workplace social at some point. "I sincerly regret that my daughter proved a source of strife for your son." "It was an unfortunate situation for all involved. Indeed, I would even beg your forgiveness for my son's actions."
Heh...yeah, these two would probably have made interesting drinking buddies, too. Not as interesting as brythain's Mutou and Nurse, perhaps -- or, perhaps, a different kind of interesting.
about Mrs. Nakai
*nods* Yeah, this is one of those "I understand your feelings, but that doesn't mean I agree with them" things. Also, Hisao at least thinks he can change her mind eventually, but for now (a) she didn't give him the chance just then; and (b) he didn't have the time. John Lennon aside, karma isn't always instant.
One thing I didn't really agree with was the kind of sudden and conveinent heart flutter Hisao has. He's been through far worse than a minor yelling match, and it seemed like an easy plot device t have him pass out due to some raised voices, especially when Mrs. Nakai says something straight up RAGE inducing later on, to no effect. It's only a little random, and it didn't seem particularly vital to the plot to include it... *shrug*
It's there for the purposes of setting his mother off. Also, it was foreshadowed pretty much the entire chapter -- he was running on fumes, only having a couple of brief naps during the past 48 hours, plus his schedule was thrown off, plus he's been exerting himself a fair amount (and not in a way that he's used to doing), plus he's been on edge about this visit for the last several days, plus his anger at his mom has been building since she got home, so his stress level kinda buries the needle. Also, this is Lilly!Hisao, who had a flutter during an everyday conversation during "Little Wing". Part of the reason it didn't happen again later is because he knew it would happen again if he started that conversation right then and there. He might still be somewhat dense, but he's learning :).
"I probably shouldn't tell you this, but I think you should know. The day she stopped going to the hospital, Iwanako kinda had a breakdown..."
HA!
Indeed :D.
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!

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