For Want of a Nail - Misha Route (Updated 11/1/19)

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Etokie
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Re: For Want of a Nail - Misha Route (New Chapter 1/18)

Post by Etokie » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:06 pm

I don't think that he cant be a bit funny, but he seems to pop up at all the times where i am immersed in the story. I just wanna see more Misha and Hisao, and suprise suprise here is that feminist hating asshole to break all sort of ties i have to the story. I just skip everything that has to do with him now.
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Re: For Want of a Nail - Misha Route (New Chapter 1/18)

Post by Liminaut » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:37 pm

I've been trying to think of why I dislike Kenji so much.

In our society, there is a lot of virulent anti-feminism, and it's depressingly extensive in gaming culture. Women who simply talk about this will often receive death threats. It's a real problem. If you want to find more about this google "women gaming death threats".

So no, I can't find Kenji funny. I wish they had made him a more general conspiracy theorist. Six-foot space reptiles -- now that's hilarious.

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Re: Adult Content Disabled

Post by griffon8 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:05 pm

ProfAllister wrote:The feminists use a nerve agent, applied typically or through weaponised aerosols.
Pretty sure this word should be 'topically'.

Probably a good thing I read that after you put the spoiler text there. :roll:
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Leaty
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Re: For Want of a Nail - Misha Route (New Chapter 1/18)

Post by Leaty » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:19 pm

Liminaut wrote:I've been trying to think of why I dislike Kenji so much.

In our society, there is a lot of virulent anti-feminism, and it's depressingly extensive in gaming culture. Women who simply talk about this will often receive death threats. It's a real problem. If you want to find more about this google "women gaming death threats".
Speaking as a woman and a feminist, I don't find Kenji offensive, since his rhetoric is so far divorced from reality (and from that of real-life misogynists,) that it doesn't trigger any sore spots from me emotionally. He's basically Borat but with women instead of Jews. (I am also a Jew.)

Believe me, shitting on MRAs and other misogynists is one of my favorite pastimes, and none of Kenji's views even remotely resemble those of real people.

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Re: For Want of a Nail - Misha Route (New Chapter 1/18)

Post by Steinherz » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:17 pm

Leaty wrote:Speaking as a woman and a feminist, I don't find Kenji offensive, since his rhetoric is so far divorced from reality (and from that of real-life misogynists,) that it doesn't trigger any sore spots from me emotionally. He's basically Borat but with women instead of Jews. (I am also a Jew.)

Believe me, shitting on MRAs and other misogynists is one of my favorite pastimes, and none of Kenji's views even remotely resemble those of real people.
The question is this: Are you a real feminist, or the incredibly lovely pieces of work that are radical/tumblr feminists? (you know, the ones who say Penis-In-Vagina is always rape)

If you're the former, fine. If you're the latter: well..... *cocks shotgun* :lol:
I write take a look, would you kindly?
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Re: For Want of a Nail - Misha Route (New Chapter 1/18)

Post by griffon8 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:23 pm

Leaty wrote:Believe me, shitting on MRAs and other misogynists is one of my favorite pastimes, and none of Kenji's views even remotely resemble those of real people.
Had to look the term up. Realized that I had never seen the abbreviation used. Those people disgust me. And now you have provided me the reason why I don't hate Kenji, which I hadn't realized before.
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inthewind
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Re: For Want of a Nail - Misha Route (New Chapter 1/18)

Post by inthewind » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:09 am

As a gigging jazz musician, MRAs have reduced me to bringing the actual derby mute to gigs because I generally don't want to wear fedoras anywhere to use instead.

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Re: For Want of a Nail - Misha Route (New Chapter 1/18)

Post by Leaty » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:44 pm

Steinherz wrote:The question is this: Are you a real feminist, or the incredibly lovely pieces of work that are radical/tumblr feminists? (you know, the ones who say Penis-In-Vagina is always rape)

If you're the former, fine. If you're the latter: well..... *cocks shotgun* :lol:
The idea that women are unable to give consent most probably originates from Andrea Dworkin, an early second-wave feminist whose ideas have been heavily, heavily criticized by modern feminists. Notably, she was a notorious transphobe, and probably more than a little racist. I'm not on Tumblr, but considering that the vast majority of its community (and even its feminist community) are barely out of their teens and unable to stop salivating over goofy shit like Homestuck and Doctor Who, I find it highly unlikely that many of them are strong advocates of ideas as horrible and obsolete as Dworkin's. I think you're pointing that shotgun at a boogeyman.

I'd also point out that if you fancy yourself an egalitarian in any respect, you're just a feminist by another name, sorry.

Don't want to keep this derail going, so use PM if you have any other questions.

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Re: For Want of a Nail - Misha Route (New Chapter 1/18)

Post by Labargoth » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:40 pm

I've been creeping around this forum quite some time while playing the game now. But this now... I just had to make an account in order to say how much I love this fanfiction :cry:
It's just as beautiful as the game itself. And I can't wait for the next act :D

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Re: For Want of a Nail - Misha Route (New Chapter 1/18)

Post by Bad Apple » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:11 pm

inthewind wrote:As a gigging jazz musician, MRAs have reduced me to bringing the actual derby mute to gigs because I generally don't want to wear fedoras anywhere to use instead.
This. Thanks to those circle-jerking, irrelevant bed-wetters, no man (myself included) can wear fedoras anymore without fear of this neoplastic stigma associated with them. (Not unless you're Terry Pratchett.) It's like the swastika; it used to symbolize something good, or nothing at all, but now using them just means you're a dick.

I guess there's always trilbies, but goddammit, they're just not the same.


OT:
Maggie Marxism
USSS Hillenkoetter
Since I can't find any hits I'm going to guess these are completely made up... relatively speaking, as in, invented whole cloth by yourself. If they are, congratulations, because I really thought it was something someone actually has unironically raved about at some point in time.
"Also, could you please stop making it sound like you've been gargling sandpaper. It makes my throat hurt just hearing you."

He shrugs, returning to his normal voice. "Whatever, man."
"It makes your throat hurt, huh?"

"Stop repeating everything I say!"

The fact he was talking in that tone came out of nowhere. I don't see any description of it earlier in the text.

Besides that hiccup, splendid as always. Although I'm wondering how long till the finish line now that the obligatory route sex scene is out...
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Re: For Want of a Nail - Misha Route (New Chapter 1/18)

Post by ProfAllister » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:28 am

I've refrained from spilling any pixels on the whole Kenji relevance/feminism thing, and it's really a subject for its own thread (which would potentially be an interesting discussion), so I'll leave all that at (a) He's a canon character, and one that's not really all that easy to write out; and (b) he's all kinds of fun to write.
Bad Apple wrote:
inthewind wrote:As a gigging jazz musician, MRAs have reduced me to bringing the actual derby mute to gigs because I generally don't want to wear fedoras anywhere to use instead.
This. Thanks to those circle-jerking, irrelevant bed-wetters, no man (myself included) can wear fedoras anymore without fear of this neoplastic stigma associated with them. (Not unless you're Terry Pratchett.) It's like the swastika; it used to symbolize something good, or nothing at all, but now using them just means you're a dick.

I guess there's always trilbies, but goddammit, they're just not the same.
For what it's worth, no one objects to fedoras properly worn (or they shouldn't, at least). Either way, it's not the fedora on the outside that matters; it's the fedora on the inside that counts.

OT:
Maggie Marxism
USSS Hillenkoetter
Since I can't find any hits I'm going to guess these are completely made up... relatively speaking, as in, invented whole cloth by yourself. If they are, congratulations, because I really thought it was something someone actually has unironically raved about at some point in time.
Your mistake must be putting them all together, 'cause the absolute simplest Google search brings up relevant results. Maggie Marxism was invented - one of Kenji's characters in his puppet show about the Conspiracy. The others are (at least partially) all courtesy of genuine conspiracy theories.
"Also, could you please stop making it sound like you've been gargling sandpaper. It makes my throat hurt just hearing you."

He shrugs, returning to his normal voice. "Whatever, man."
"It makes your throat hurt, huh?"

"Stop repeating everything I say!"

The fact he was talking in that tone came out of nowhere. I don't see any description of it earlier in the text.

Besides that hiccup, splendid as always. Although I'm wondering how long till the finish line now that the obligatory route sex scene is out...
I was waffling on whether or not to mention it, but figured it wasn't all that important, considering it was just supposed to be a throwaway joke. If it's too jarring, it wouldn't be hard to banish it down the memory hole.

As for the anticipated length, I won't say too much (other than that we're still on Act 3), but I can assure you that your metric needs a little calibration.
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Re: For Want of a Nail - Misha Route (New Chapter 1/18)

Post by SwimmingInCloudland » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:58 pm

ProfAllister wrote: Either way, it's not the fedora on the outside that matters; it's the fedora on the inside that counts.
Pure poetry.
ProfAllister: Either way, it's not the fedora on the outside that matters; it's the fedora on the inside that counts.

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Re: For Want of a Nail - Misha Route (New Chapter 5/26)

Post by Helbereth » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:52 pm

future unreal conditional
The greatest benefit of not having a college education is that I've learned these concepts without ever knowing their frightening names.
dewelar wrote:
Atario wrote:
ProfAllister wrote:Also, calendars.
Not getting the reference. Little help?
I believe the good professor is implying that this is the day Emi goes into the city to visit her father's grave. It would be around the right time for it (although I have it happening a couple days earlier in my story).
I'm uncertain as to whether anyone else has made this conclusion, but the combination of her acting unduly angry - or passionate, in this case - combined with a the calendar mention seems more like an offhanded reference to "That time of the month." Concurrently, I'd rather not think that she associates a festival like Tanabata with the death of her father, which would basically ruin that holiday for the whole of her life.
Etokie wrote:Why does everyone here seem to love Kenji?. I can't stand him, every appearance in the game annoyed me. And every time he appears in a fic i groan internally. So please explain what is so good about him?
As a writer, and having used Kenji in several works, I think the explanation is simple: unlike the typical characters that populate a story, who generally act reasonably most of the time and are perhaps prone to infrequent fits of insanity, Kenji is the exact opposite. At almost all times his mindset is extremely unreasonable, and his fits of insanity come with greater frequency than times of calmness and reasonability. Basically, writing Kenji into a scene populated by these typically reasonable characters allows you to throw a wrench in the works, and use his deranged mind to have a bit of fun with the situation; that, and it can be tedious working with reasonable characters all the time.

Perhaps even more useful, he's an effective vehicle for providing strangely appropriate insights into the events of the story, which translates into new perspective for the audience you're trying to reach. What he says might sound insane, but sometimes he says something that's so ridiculous that it makes sense. You see this kind of character crop up in all sorts of places, sometimes more subtly: Patrick Jane from The Mentalist, and Shawn Spencer from Psych both display this kind of asymmetrical, seemingly unreasonable thinking, the insights of which then becomes major focus of those shows.

~^~

All that said, I'll go ahead and comment on the story itself, since that's what I'm wont to do. I lost track of this a while back and left off when they were playing in the rain. Returning however many months later, I find that the story hasn't grown much, but it maintains its quality.

The depiction of Misha has very slowly become more three dimensional over the course of the story, and I'm sure she still has plenty of quirks and secrets left to reveal, but the direction it's going is pleasing to see. Far from simply existing as the voice box for Shizune, you've given her a history, family, lovable habits along with a few additional annoying ones, and even created explanations for her unusual eye color, and your repeated descriptions of her ever-changing hair has almost created an extra character - albeit an inanimate assortment of bubble-gum colored strands.

Apart from that, you've provided additional depth for Shizune, given Lilly something to say that counters her Stepford-wife personae, shown Emi at perhaps her most vulnerable, added to Akira's already powerful mystique, and given Aoi and Keiko some distinct - if not always pleasing - traits. There are plenty of threads left unexplored for future chapters, so I'm sure this will go on for quite a bit longer, and I'm looking forward to seeing how you tug on the strands.

My one critique, if I can call it that, is that like the VN before it, and the majority of related fan fictions in general, you've basically ignored most all male influences on the story. Nurse makes regular appearances as Hisao's conscience, and Mutou has slipped into obscurity of late, but apart from those two, all your regular characters, save Hisao, are female. It makes sense on some level that Hisao spends a lot of time with Misha and Shizune, along with Aoi and Keiko by proxy, but he attends class every day and sits right in front of Taro (when he's in his seat), plus Lezard is nearby and there's also Takashi in the vicinity.

I sort of don't understand why nobody gives Hisao any male friends aside from Kenji...

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Re: For Want of a Nail - Misha Route (New Chapter 1/18)

Post by Bad Apple » Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:40 am

ProfAllister wrote:For what it's worth, no one objects to fedoras properly worn (or they shouldn't, at least).
They do. (Internet-savvy folk anyhow.) I know from experience.
ProfAllister wrote:Your mistake must be putting them all together [...] The others are (at least partially) all courtesy of genuine conspiracy theories.
Nah, I am unfortunately learned in conspiracy lore, so I knew everything up till the quoted words. (That's why I only quoted the made-up ones.) In fact, I had to reread the previous sentence three times so I could comprehend how in the fuck did he group those three (mostly) unrelated things together. At least, They want you to believe they're unrelated...
I was waffling on whether or not to mention it, but figured it wasn't all that important, considering it was just supposed to be a throwaway joke. If it's too jarring, it wouldn't be hard to banish it down the memory hole.
It's a good line as far as Internet/video game humor is concerned. I would only suggest that a descriptor is added after Kenji's first line that says he's inexplicably speaking like some grizzled lifelong smoker.
As for the anticipated length, I won't say too much (other than that we're still on Act 3)
Good, good.
but I can assure you that your metric needs a little calibration.
I'll get Mr. Vakarian right on it. He's good at that sort of thing.

That's all for now.
"If the world is cold, make it your business to build fires."
— Horace Traubel

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Re: For Want of a Nail - Misha Route (New Chapter 5/26)

Post by ProfAllister » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:44 am

Helbereth wrote:
future unreal conditional
The greatest benefit of not having a college education is that I've learned these concepts without ever knowing their frightening names.
I'd say the lack of college debt is a nice bonus, too.
dewelar wrote:
Atario wrote:
ProfAllister wrote:Also, calendars.
Not getting the reference. Little help?
I believe the good professor is implying that this is the day Emi goes into the city to visit her father's grave. It would be around the right time for it (although I have it happening a couple days earlier in my story).
I'm uncertain as to whether anyone else has made this conclusion, but the combination of her acting unduly angry - or passionate, in this case - combined with a the calendar mention seems more like an offhanded reference to "That time of the month." Concurrently, I'd rather not think that she associates a festival like Tanabata with the death of her father, which would basically ruin that holiday for the whole of her life.
Yup. If a girl's acting emotional, irrational, or disagreeable, it must be PMS. ¬_¬ (In fairness, I've exploited this assumption/conventional wisdom quite a bit in this very story, but depiction of an activity does not constitute endorsement. (cf. Kenji))

Funny story about this whole bit. It wasn't part of the original plan, but I improvised. Specifically, someone sent me a PM asking about the date. I quote (the relevant portion of) my response below:
ProfAllister wrote:As for the date of Emi's father's death, that's a tricky one...

I went into quite a bit of depth on timing here. As you can see, there's a bit of ambiguity there, and Suriko's probably the most solid author when it comes to timing.

Looks like five days between the dinner incident and the anniversary. (The timing between dinner and confrontation is ambiguous if you talked to Emi, at 3 or 4 days, but if you talked to Meiko, it's more clearly 4 days.)

Hisao can talk to Mutou on the last day of exams. The next day is dinner at the Ibarazaki residence. Put it all together, and we have... a problem.

Per Lilly's route, exams end on a Monday, making Dinner on a Tuesday. Four days after Tuesday lands us on Saturday. The confrontation can't be Saturday because Hisao tells Misha that he can't go talk to Emi right away because of afternoon classes.

Fortunately, there's a solution. We can fudge the numbers. The time between the Dinner and the Confrontation isn't measured exactly. It's more counting explicit mentions of days passing, but both talk about forming a routine. We can stretch the period to six days without straining the narrative too much, as it still fits Emi's "almost a week." Some would say six days fits better than 3 or 4.

Six days makes the dates play nice, placing the confrontation on a Monday, and the visit to the cemetery on Tuesday. Following my stated preference for exams ending on the 30th, that places the death of her father on... August 7. Tanabata.

Damn.

So, there you have it. Certainly not canon, but probably as researched as we'd be able to do. And there are always alternate interpretations you can take if you don't like this result. Personally, I see it as an opportunity. Besides, drunk drivers and car accidents on a holiday? Who can argue with that?
I can certainly see why people would take issue with the timing, but it's really one of the only answers that would allow for consistency across route timelines (whether you consider that important is another thing entirely). And, as I said up there, it makes for a lot of narrative opportunities. But don't blame me for the timing. Blame Hivemind, Suriko, and (potentially) 4LS's decision to not use a "story bible" calendar for cross-route consistency.

And even without the exact date falling there, it's the general time period that gets to her, so the only REAL way to prevent it from souring her Tanabata would be to exploit Tanabata's inconsistent observance across Japan and have her come from a region which celebrates it in July. Even then, it still puts quite a damper on things.

Sorry to be such a downer, but NARRATIVE!
Etokie wrote:Why does everyone here seem to love Kenji?. I can't stand him, every appearance in the game annoyed me. And every time he appears in a fic i groan internally. So please explain what is so good about him?
As a writer, and having used Kenji in several works, I think the explanation is simple: unlike the typical characters that populate a story, who generally act reasonably most of the time and are perhaps prone to infrequent fits of insanity, Kenji is the exact opposite. At almost all times his mindset is extremely unreasonable, and his fits of insanity come with greater frequency than times of calmness and reasonability. Basically, writing Kenji into a scene populated by these typically reasonable characters allows you to throw a wrench in the works, and use his deranged mind to have a bit of fun with the situation; that, and it can be tedious working with reasonable characters all the time.

Perhaps even more useful, he's an effective vehicle for providing strangely appropriate insights into the events of the story, which translates into new perspective for the audience you're trying to reach. What he says might sound insane, but sometimes he says something that's so ridiculous that it makes sense. You see this kind of character crop up in all sorts of places, sometimes more subtly: Patrick Jane from The Mentalist, and Shawn Spencer from Psych both display this kind of asymmetrical, seemingly unreasonable thinking, the insights of which then becomes major focus of those shows.
Well put. And I'll note that Mutou (and to a lesser extent Yuuko) tend to have this same role (if a bit more sane). Most obvious and dramatic example being Mutou's quantum theory lecture in Emi's route.
The depiction of Misha has very slowly become more three dimensional over the course of the story, and I'm sure she still has plenty of quirks and secrets left to reveal, but the direction it's going is pleasing to see. Far from simply existing as the voice box for Shizune, you've given her a history, family, lovable habits along with a few additional annoying ones, and even created explanations for her unusual eye color, and your repeated descriptions of her ever-changing hair has almost created an extra character - albeit an inanimate assortment of bubble-gum colored strands.
Glad to hear you like it so far. Interested to know what you'd consider her new annoying quirks. In general, though, Misha's one of the trickier sorts of fanfiction characters. She's not an OC, so there is a canon for you to follow and ensure consistency, but exceedingly little is actually laid out there for you. Add in the occasional single line that can carry heavy implications and the (canon) detail that she lied about at least half of what she tells Hisao, and you have quite a handful. You're really kind of forced to invent new details, but constrained in that these details need to fit with what comes from canon.

I'd like to imagine that I've tied things in well with canon, and made sure that there's some basis for it all, but liberties need to be made. I'd also like to imagine that my biggest (and least justified) liberty was also my first - making her a former swimmer.

As for the hair, I know that I'd be an artist/asset developer's nightmare. Hair is far too interesting to keep static all the time. While people do tend to have a day-to-day routine for their hair, it's good to change it up once in a while (especially when it's long/short enough to really play with it).
Apart from that, you've provided additional depth for Shizune, given Lilly something to say that counters her Stepford-wife personae, shown Emi at perhaps her most vulnerable, added to Akira's already powerful mystique, and given Aoi and Keiko some distinct - if not always pleasing - traits. There are plenty of threads left unexplored for future chapters, so I'm sure this will go on for quite a bit longer, and I'm looking forward to seeing how you tug on the strands.

My one critique, if I can call it that, is that like the VN before it, and the majority of related fan fictions in general, you've basically ignored most all male influences on the story. Nurse makes regular appearances as Hisao's conscience, and Mutou has slipped into obscurity of late, but apart from those two, all your regular characters, save Hisao, are female. It makes sense on some level that Hisao spends a lot of time with Misha and Shizune, along with Aoi and Keiko by proxy, but he attends class every day and sits right in front of Taro (when he's in his seat), plus Lezard is nearby and there's also Takashi in the vicinity.

I sort of don't understand why nobody gives Hisao any male friends aside from Kenji...
And these last comments actually tie into each other a bit. As I'm writing in a serialised format, from the point of view of one character, a lot of things happen without the story commenting on them - because Hisao is unaware of (or at least not paying attention to) their occurrence. I'm trying to avoid introducing unnecessary details, as well as giving hints at what is to come, but it very quickly resembles an arsenal resting on the mantelpiece, with the promise/threat of a reenactment of the Matrix lobby scene.

And that of course makes discussion of these things quite difficult - I don't want to spoil anything (especially if my plans change), and I don't want to stifle constructive feedback (every little bit helps), but I do want to make it clear that I am weaving a tapestry with many threads, and it's extremely hard to see the big picture without having the finished product in front of you. So the best I can ask is that you volunteer concerns and feedback, but be patient in the trust that I've accounted for a significant portion of things. If it doesn't bear out in the final product, well, shame on me.

On the specific subject of Hisao and male acquaintances, I won't say whether that might play a role in future plot, but that sort of person bears out in reality. There are many guys who, through no conscious effort, have a lot of female acquaintances, but only one "token guy friend." This is the guy who has to go out of his way to introduce a girlfriend to his male friends. He often can be heard protesting, "I don't just have girls for friends! There's Bob, for one. Besides Bob? ...Well, I'd have to think about it, but the point is that I have guy friends, too."

I will grant that many authors probably don't even notice, though.
Bad Apple wrote:
ProfAllister wrote:For what it's worth, no one objects to fedoras properly worn (or they shouldn't, at least).
They do. (Internet-savvy folk anyhow.) I know from experience.
Hence the word "shouldn't." People on the Internet do a lot of things they shouldn't (like wear fedoras :p).
ProfAllister wrote:Your mistake must be putting them all together [...] The others are (at least partially) all courtesy of genuine conspiracy theories.
Nah, I am unfortunately learned in conspiracy lore, so I knew everything up till the quoted words. (That's why I only quoted the made-up ones.) In fact, I had to reread the previous sentence three times so I could comprehend how in the fuck did he group those three (mostly) unrelated things together. At least, They want you to believe they're unrelated...
...not clear whether you still have USSS Hillenkoetter on the list of made-up things or not. Seriously, look it up. You may think I'm an excellent author, but I honestly don't think I'm crazy enough to make up something like that.
I was waffling on whether or not to mention it, but figured it wasn't all that important, considering it was just supposed to be a throwaway joke. If it's too jarring, it wouldn't be hard to banish it down the memory hole.
It's a good line as far as Internet/video game humor is concerned. I would only suggest that a descriptor is added after Kenji's first line that says he's inexplicably speaking like some grizzled lifelong smoker.
At this point, that would likely wait until a little down the line, if/when I do a review sweep to try cleaning everyhting up for a more coherent whole (polishing the rough edges from serialised format).
As for the anticipated length, I won't say too much (other than that we're still on Act 3)
Good, good.
but I can assure you that your metric needs a little calibration.
I'll get Mr. Vakarian right on it. He's good at that sort of thing.

That's all for now.
Don't even get me started on how Bioware romance means the slightest misgiving toward having your systems calibrated by a chitinous being who is literally toxic to you results in him going into a depressive cycle of shutting you out entirely in favor of focusing on the big gun.
Current Project: Misha Pseudo-Route

Discord ID: ProfAllister#9754

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