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griffon8
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Re: With Apologies To Harlan Ellison [Spoilers, Gore Discret

Post by griffon8 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:35 pm

But her next words throw me off guard. “W-W-W-We never left, Hisao.” She chokes out.
Yeah, saw that coming.
I found out about Katawa Shoujo through the forums of Misfile. There, I am the editor of Misfiled Dreams.

Completed: 100%, including bonus picture. Shizune>Emi>Lilly>Hanako>Rin

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Nekken
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Re: With Apologies To Harlan Ellison [Spoilers, Gore Discret

Post by Nekken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:46 am

Bagheera wrote:
Mirage_GSM wrote:I was afraid you'd do something like this. You have now robbed yourself of the possibility to bring this story to any conclusion at all.
Yeah, pretty much. Now it just goes in circles until you get tired of it and decide to stop. Future reveals are now meaningless because we'll never have any reason to think it's not just another game/fakeout.

Oh well. Fun while it lasted.
To some extent, anyway. On the other hand, there is a theory of torture that uses this very concept: you lay out a schedule, ending with the victim's execution, and stick strictly to it until they start looking forward to their own death. But then on the day of the supposed execution, you instead -as your only deviation from the schedule; this is important- start the cycle anew. A seemingly omnipotent and omniscient torturer (like AM in the original, and the voice in this) would certainly be aware of the idea, and might very well decide to experiment with it.

Doing this when dealing with a reality-warping torturer, though, leaves the author with a very difficult challenge indeed: how do you prove that it's really over? There is no way to end the story happily now, unless you find a way to answer that question. Of course, no one said this story had to end happily...
Falling in love is a volcano. Being in love is a kotatsu.

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Demonhornz
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Re: With Apologies To Harlan Ellison [Spoilers, Gore Discret

Post by Demonhornz » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:19 am

Hm...a bigger role for Shizune and Misha? ...Not really enjoying the relationship between them (I thought it was desperate "friendliness" at first, but then...) Well, that's just me though. Will continue to read regardless.

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Brogurt
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Re: With Apologies To Harlan Ellison [Spoilers, Gore Discret

Post by Brogurt » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:05 am

http://pastebin.com/SV0L1Jve
Courtesy of a specific Steam Group that pretty clearly enjoys reading and writing.

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Doomish
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Re: With Apologies To Harlan Ellison [Spoilers, Gore Discret

Post by Doomish » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:20 am

Ahahahahaha, that's incredible. I love when people say things about striking me down and being a hero, especially when they have just read the story and it's still influencing their writing a little, so you can tell it wouldn't be that disturbing if they were having a normal conversation about it. This is why I love writing: I get all kinds of opinions from all kinds of different people. I don't know who that particular person is, but it doesn't really matter, because his reaction means I'm doing my job correctly, and I thank him for that.

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Re: With Apologies To Harlan Ellison [Spoilers, Gore Discret

Post by Bagheera » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:38 am

Nekken wrote:To some extent, anyway. On the other hand, there is a theory of torture that uses this very concept: you lay out a schedule, ending with the victim's execution, and stick strictly to it until they start looking forward to their own death. But then on the day of the supposed execution, you instead -as your only deviation from the schedule; this is important- start the cycle anew. A seemingly omnipotent and omniscient torturer (like AM in the original, and the voice in this) would certainly be aware of the idea, and might very well decide to experiment with it.
Great for torture. Not so great for reading, ya?
Doing this when dealing with a reality-warping torturer, though, leaves the author with a very difficult challenge indeed: how do you prove that it's really over? There is no way to end the story happily now, unless you find a way to answer that question. Of course, no one said this story had to end happily...
There's no way to end it, period, unless you go third person objective or something.
Girls: Emi = Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Shizune = Rin
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Nekken
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Re: With Apologies To Harlan Ellison [Spoilers, Gore Discret

Post by Nekken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:13 am

Bagheera wrote:Great for torture. Not so great for reading, ya?
Under ordinary circumstances, yes, but we're reading about torture, and that necessitates some blurring of the lines. Any rule of writing can be broken, if done well and done in the proper circumstances, and what we've got here constitutes the proper circumstances. Whether or not it will turn out to be done well remains to be seen, but it is still possible.
There's no way to end it, period, unless you go third person objective or something.
I think Harlan Ellison would beg to differ with you on that. The story that inspired this one didn't end happily, but it most certainly came to a satisfactory end.
Falling in love is a volcano. Being in love is a kotatsu.

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Re: With Apologies To Harlan Ellison [Spoilers, Gore Discret

Post by myshoesarebrown » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:17 pm

Yes, I can still see different possible endings. It doesn't have to end with them leaving the fortress or winning or dying. The story can still end at any point, nothing is going to stop that. It's whenever Hisao gets tired of narrating. I imagine this will be when he finally gives up hope and falls into utter despair. I also imagine this could be the most satisfactory ending at this point. It would conclude everything. In a sad way, but everything would be wrapped up.

Or, Doomish could intentionally be trying to piss everyone off -- there will be several chapters in this act, possibly ANOTHER act... and in the end, the ending will be a joke where everyone just starts dancing or something. I mean, April 1st is getting closer and closer. Maybe Mutou will burst in and say "it's time to time travel". Or they summon Captain Planet or something.

You know what? You have such potential to piss everyone off, Doomish, that you should do this. You've got a long story that people are keeping up with -- how many times do you get such an opportunity? Forget any logical or good ending you had. It's time to bullshit. Do as I say!
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Re: With Apologies To Harlan Ellison [Spoilers, Gore Discret

Post by Mirage_GSM » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:01 pm

Nekken wrote:
There's no way to end it, period, unless you go third person objective or something.
I think Harlan Ellison would beg to differ with you on that. The story that inspired this one didn't end happily, but it most certainly came to a satisfactory end.
Not even that would be final at this point. In the original the AI didn't have the power to bring back the dead. The voice in this story has been shown to do so. So even if this story ended like IHNMAIMS it would not be final and could always be reset to the start.
It doesn't have to end with them leaving the fortress or winning or dying. The story can still end at any point, nothing is going to stop that. It's whenever Hisao gets tired of narrating. I imagine this will be when he finally gives up hope and falls into utter despair.
Yes, that would be a possible end. It would not be satisfying, however, since in that case nothing that happened in the story would have actually mattered. It would just be a story of gratuitious violence and gore.
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

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Re: With Apologies To Harlan Ellison [Spoilers, Gore Discret

Post by Bagheera » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:05 pm

Nekken wrote:
Bagheera wrote:
There's no way to end it, period, unless you go third person objective or something.
I think Harlan Ellison would beg to differ with you on that. The story that inspired this one didn't end happily, but it most certainly came to a satisfactory end.
It was also much shorter and didn't involve much in the way of fakeouts/resets.
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myshoesarebrown
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Re: With Apologies To Harlan Ellison [Spoilers, Gore Discret

Post by myshoesarebrown » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:30 pm

Mirage_GSM wrote:
It doesn't have to end with them leaving the fortress or winning or dying. The story can still end at any point, nothing is going to stop that. It's whenever Hisao gets tired of narrating. I imagine this will be when he finally gives up hope and falls into utter despair.
Yes, that would be a possible end. It would not be satisfying, however, since in that case nothing that happened in the story would have actually mattered. It would just be a story of gratuitious violence and gore.
This will vary from reader to reader. I would find it a satisfying ending, perhaps more so. The story would no longer just be a plot with an ending, it would be about Hisao's character -- which I find much more interesting than the plot itself. The story will no longer just be a series of events with an ending. It will be a series of events which lead Hisao to realize he has no hope, how his life is pointless, etc.

Though a completely different genre, it worked for The Stranger by Camus. The entire story is completely pointless in the end, because Meursault is about to be executed. There is no resolving to the events, just his acceptance of his inevitable death. In that regard, nothing in the story actually mattered. It was just lots of observations and Meursault's mindless actions. However, the ending is still satisfying, because the story was not about the plot, it was about the character.

I think Doomish is doing something right if a fanfiction can cause this much discussion.
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Doomish
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Re: With Apologies To Harlan Ellison [Spoilers, Gore Discret

Post by Doomish » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:46 pm

Forget it.
Last edited by Doomish on Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nekken
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Re: With Apologies To Harlan Ellison [Spoilers, Gore Discret

Post by Nekken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:20 pm

Interesting Saya no Uta reference.
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Doomish
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Re: With Apologies To Harlan Ellison [Spoilers, Gore Discret

Post by Doomish » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:21 pm

Nekken wrote:Interesting Saya no Uta reference.
Yessssss, I'm glad you caught that. I love working references into my stories that seem like just another plot element to outside readers. I think Saya No Uta might have been my inspiration for some of the horror in this story, but I can't really remember at this point.

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Re: With Apologies To Harlan Ellison [Spoilers, Gore Discret

Post by myshoesarebrown » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:12 pm

Doomish wrote:And, no, the fakeout ending is absolutely out of the question. I wouldn't lead my readers on like that only to turn it into something completely ridiculous at the last minute.
Oh, you say that now. That's what you'd have to say. But I can see the ending. You're going to go all "End of Evangelion" on us, aren't ya? Don't worry, I'll keep your secret! :wink:
“Hisao, Misha can’t go on.” She wheezes, huffing out a tired “Wait, I’m...”
Show's over, folks. This is what we've been waiting for. The show can't possibly go up any farther than this.
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