A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

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AJT135
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Re: A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

Post by AJT135 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:39 pm

Also, on an unrelated note, you should probably consider adding an index page at the start. Remembering exactly where you are in such a long fic can be a bit hard.

Downix
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Re: A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

Post by Downix » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:59 pm

AJT135 wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:57 pm
Downix wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:45 pm
AJT135 wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:03 pm


I have a hard time believing it's just a coincidence arising from extrapolating what the problems were like from Wednesday. Especially when the rest of the scene, including the description of the problems, is ripped straight from MTtB

Also, regarding the room number, there's a bit of weirdness arising from different methods of counting floor number, but if Hisao's is 119 then the floor below probably has room numbers starting with 0. That would make Iwanako's room on the fourth floor. The alternative is there being upwards of 300 rooms per dorm, which I find unlikely for a small specialist boarding school that seems to have less than 400 students
That assumes shared numbers between dorms. Instead I went with the first number denoting wing. When Lilly gives her room number she specifies that it is the 25th room, and is on the second floor, as separate entities.

Under this approach, the boy dorm has one wing, with all rooms starting with 1. The girls dorm would under this approach have two wings, the 2 wing and the 3 wing.
Sharing numbers between dorms seems like a very odd way of doing things though. Generally the first number of a room number denotes the floor the room is on, which makes sense since Lilly's is on the second floor, 25th room, making it 225. Hisao's is 119 and on what is in some countries called the first floor. Room numbers typically use the first digit to refer to the floor, then sometimes the next to refer to wing.
Sometimes yes, but not always. The way I was visualizing the dorm layout was thusly:
Dorm Model.png
Dorm Model.png (20.07 KiB) Viewed 534 times
(don't mind my lack of artistic skill here)

AJT135
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Re: A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

Post by AJT135 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:05 pm

Downix wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:59 pm
AJT135 wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:57 pm
Downix wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:45 pm


That assumes shared numbers between dorms. Instead I went with the first number denoting wing. When Lilly gives her room number she specifies that it is the 25th room, and is on the second floor, as separate entities.

Under this approach, the boy dorm has one wing, with all rooms starting with 1. The girls dorm would under this approach have two wings, the 2 wing and the 3 wing.
Sharing numbers between dorms seems like a very odd way of doing things though. Generally the first number of a room number denotes the floor the room is on, which makes sense since Lilly's is on the second floor, 25th room, making it 225. Hisao's is 119 and on what is in some countries called the first floor. Room numbers typically use the first digit to refer to the floor, then sometimes the next to refer to wing.
Sometimes yes, but not always. The way I was visualizing the dorm layout was thusly:
Dorm Model.png

(don't mind my lack of artistic skill here)
I doubt the girls' dorm would be twice as big as the boys'. Besides, what little we have in the VN seems to support the first digit being floor, not wing. Hence why Lilly mentions room 225 as being the 25th room on the second floor and mentioning absolutely nothing about wings. I don't believe wings are ever actually mentioned in relation to the dorms, and there's definitely situations where they would have been mentioned if they existed. Also, your layout for the boy's dorm seems odd, since there's no sign of any bathrooms, and far more rooms per hall than seems fitting, since Hisao and Kenji are almost alone in their part of the building.

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Re: A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

Post by ProfAllister » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:08 pm

I'm starting to think this discussion about floor numbers learns toward derailment...

More to the point, there are literally hundreds of possible ways to assign room numbers. You mention the floor below Hisao's having a leading 0 as both a possibility and an impossibility, but I addressed that oddity myself with the practice of buildings built on hills having a (partially submerged) "ground floor", followed by the first floor. In that case, the ground floor rooms would have a leading G (e.g., Room G04).

Other possibilities include different leading numbers for each building (e.g., Guys get the 100 series, Girls get the 200 series, Aux building gets the 300 series, etc.)

Additionally, based on Kenji's estimation (60-40 split), you'd have about 240 female students, give or take a few commuters. Depending on growth rate of the school, recent renovations, etc., it's not outside the realm of possibility to have 300 rooms. Especially considering that rooms such as bathrooms, custodial closet, kitchen, common areas, etc. also claim room numbers; it's not 100% residential rooms.

The layout issue is hair-splitting. It's true that Hisao described the boys' dorms as having 4 rooms to a wing plus a common bathroom. The visual aid was obviously cooked up very quickly.

As for the fic itself, I'll admit not having read MtB yet, so I can't speak to exactly how similar it may or may not be. But, for what it is, it's relatively solid, cute, etc. An interesting question to see how it develops from here, though.
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Re: A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

Post by psyxypher » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:08 pm

I'm sorry, I couldn't read past Chapter 3. The effort put into making Takashi seem like some kind of scumbag just made this massively uncomfortable for me to read (I just dislike when purely negative traits are ascribed to a character). Which is sad, because I was in love with this concept when it was done the first time around.
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Re: A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

Post by Beeronious » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:17 pm

psyxypher wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:08 pm
I'm sorry, I couldn't read past Chapter 3. The effort put into making Takashi seem like some kind of scumbag just made this massively uncomfortable for me to read (I just dislike when purely negative traits are ascribed to a character). Which is sad, because I was in love with this concept when it was done the first time around.
To be fair, this story is told from Iwanako's perspective. If her first impression of Takashi is of a leering creeper it's very likely her further impressions would be tarnished by that brush.

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Re: A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

Post by Mirage_GSM » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:07 pm

Wow, what a wall of text... You know the worst thing about forums is that you don't really get to use bookmarks, so usually I prefer smaller batches :-)

Still so far (it will be some time until I'm fully caught up) I like what I see.
Don't worry about using the same basic idea as another story. There are at least half a dozen continuations for every ending the VN has to offer out there.
One thing that stood out the most was the amount of research you put into the medical conditions most of it checks out with what I know or could find with a quick search - just Levothyroxine doesn't seem like a medication she would take from the description of its indications, and it seems too aggressive to be used to help with side effects of other medications...
...and a bit down the line I find that you even took that into account. Well done!
One more thing is the repeated occurence of past tense where it shouldn't be. A bit too much to point it all out here...
“I have half a heart, only two chambers.” she says, with far too much enthusiasm for what she is saying. That she emphasizes this by holding up two fingers while winking at me makes the whole scene very surreal.
I like your Rika already.
I realize that it is a new bathing suit. I’ve never seen this suit before. Mother must have picked it up for me.
Why would she do that if Iwanako can't swim?
All of the stuff on Ikebana and History is also very well researched... Okay, the stuff about Ikebana at least sounds well researched :-)
I suppose being on the Student Counsel they are busy with preparation
council :-)
Last edited by Mirage_GSM on Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

Post by Mirage_GSM » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:19 pm

Okay, finished the rest of it. Wasn't as much as it seemed to be left.

So first of all let me say that you shouldn't worry about similarities with MTTB too much. If you hadn't mentioned it was your inspiration I would not have gotten the idea myself. Both your Iwanako and all secondary characters are completely different from that story - though you probably should have avoided those two sections that were pointed out.

As for the rooms, I quite liked the way you handled that. Relatively in the beginning - in the first scene with nurse - there is a line
“In the hallway you will be staying in, two dorm rooms share a bathroom..."
...and just from that it was clear that you had given the matter thought and come up with something internally consistent. The VN doesn't really give any exact explanation how the girls' dorm is laid out, and we don't necessarily need to assume it's the same as the boys'. In fact, iIrc it says the dorms were repurposed from another use at some point, so unusual layouts are quite reasonable.

And now to my main criticism:
You've put a lot of effort - and words - into establishing a vast number of secondary characters and Iwanako's relationship with them. I was planning to complain that the cast was 100% female (with token appearances of Takashi, Haruhiko and Kenji), but... then you had Hisao return and it was all more or less for naught. Once he appeared and a short chase scene later all problems were solved and all the other girl's had left to do was be introduced to Hisao. That's a bit like setting up a murder mystery with a dozen suspects and then have the real culprit die offscreen from food poisoning.
It really didn't help that you made Hisao Mr. Perfect, who is handsome, utterly devoted and flawlessly understanding of everything.
And there is Act 1. I should have Act 2 up next week.
This really surprised me. It really felt like the end of the story, and I'm really not sure how you're planning on continuing the story from there.
The only way you could get Hisao away from Iwanako at this point would be if it turns out he was just after her parents' money all along and found out Saki's dad is richer...
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sloth4
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Re: A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

Post by sloth4 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:21 pm

I only have Leaty’s version to compare to, your Iwanako is less bitter and depressed, not unlike the difference between your Rika and the nihilistic one everyone thinks about. I was worried about how derivative this piece would be (which is why I never bothered writing an Iwanako fic myself), but you’ve made her unique enough to draw my interest. Though her apologizing to Emi over the suspension is a little odd, not her apologizing, that’s often a reflex for polite people, but Emi accepting it after feeling so guilty previously. No biggie though.

I’m unsure if I’m interested in continuing to read this work in the future. There’s nothing wrong with it, but there’s also not much going on story-wise. Iwanako is going through the motions of a popular, happy, nice girl in high school. What made MTtB so compelling (aside from its founding concept) was the constant strife Iwanako had to deal with and how nothing seemed to go her way.

I hate to use that as an example, but it’s the best fit I think.

I think that might be an issue for KS fics in general, which makes me wonder why I continue to read so many. I don’t know, maybe it just seems too happy-go-lucky to me as a story. I’m not sure how you could fix that or even if you should, I’m no expert.

Keep it up and let’s see where this goes.

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Re: A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

Post by Leaty » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:52 pm

Uhhh... I get that most people probably haven't read my fic recently enough to be totally aware of this, but this is immensely derivative of my work. I haven't read the whole thing and it probably goes off in a unique direction, but the first couple chapters in particular are literally just my writing, my ideas, taken and reworded. I literally can't read these sections without feeling like I'm reading my own writing. Literally all the plot beats, with some additions put in, are mine. The dialogue is identical in some portions, or if it isn't, the ideas conveyed through it certainly are. It's literally just my story. And the author obviously knows this.

EDIT: The later installments seem to be mostly original, but such a staggering amount of the setup is taken from my work that if nothing else I deserve a writer credit on this fic.

I'm, uh, flattered that people are inspired by my work, I guess, and in the low-stakes world of fanfic I certainly don't begrudge a creative for wanting to remix it, but this is staggeringly brazen. If I have to put my money where my mouth is in proving this, I will, but seriously, just look at the two fics side by side and try to gaslight me by telling me there are no similarities.

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Re: A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

Post by brythain » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:10 pm

Leaty wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:52 pm
Uhhh... I get that most people probably haven't read my fic recently enough to be totally aware of this, but this is immensely derivative of my work.
That is true. I think of it as a cry in the wilderness seeking something more, but what that something is, Leaty, must remain Silent. :)
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
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Re: A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

Post by brythain » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:18 pm

ProfAllister wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:08 pm
I'm starting to think this discussion about floor numbers learns toward derailment...

More to the point, there are literally hundreds of possible ways to assign room numbers. You mention the floor below Hisao's having a leading 0 as both a possibility and an impossibility, but I addressed that oddity myself with the practice of buildings built on hills having a (partially submerged) "ground floor", followed by the first floor. In that case, the ground floor rooms would have a leading G (e.g., Room G04).

Other possibilities include different leading numbers for each building (e.g., Guys get the 100 series, Girls get the 200 series, Aux building gets the 300 series, etc.)

Additionally, based on Kenji's estimation (60-40 split), you'd have about 240 female students, give or take a few commuters. Depending on growth rate of the school, recent renovations, etc., it's not outside the realm of possibility to have 300 rooms. Especially considering that rooms such as bathrooms, custodial closet, kitchen, common areas, etc. also claim room numbers; it's not 100% residential rooms.

The layout issue is hair-splitting. It's true that Hisao described the boys' dorms as having 4 rooms to a wing plus a common bathroom. The visual aid was obviously cooked up very quickly.
There's one more possibility I'm including from my head-canon, compatible with your position. The location of Yamaku (which literally means 'mountain ward', or 'civic area on the mountain') is likely on the slope of Mount Aoba. That would mean that if you built part of the school against the hill, the levels would be staggered, you'd be on 'ground floor' but it would keep ascending like a split-level. So you might even have the 100 rooms on part of the complex lower down, then up and back would be 200, further up and further back 300.

This is plausible because the numbering scheme for most Japanese buildings is that 'ground floor' is Level One/1st floor. Basements are numbered conventionally (B1, B2 etc). In a staggered situation, they'd pick a datum level and just number floors according to some relative altitude above or below that datum.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
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Re: A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

Post by sloth4 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:30 am

Leaty wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:52 pm
Uhhh... I get that most people probably haven't read my fic recently enough to be totally aware of this, but this is immensely derivative of my work.

EDIT: The later installments seem to be mostly original, but such a staggering amount of the setup is taken from my work that if nothing else I deserve a writer credit on this fic.
I felt the same, it made it difficult to push through to the more original bits. Though I will say that yours, at least, has an interesting take of the idea of the divergence (specifically, that things are not all roses for Iwanako; more depressing? Absolutely, but infinitely more interesting as well). This one was too... happy go lucky? It made it uninteresting, it was just a story about a happy girl dealing with a disability, and while that's nice, it's not particularly compelling.

Then again, it's hard not to be derivative, especially with an underexploited concept. How many Rika authors turned her into a nihilist simply because the first major pseudo-route portrayed her as such? (Incidentally, this author, Downix, broke the mold with their own Rika fic. Which was compelling for the fact that it was an alternate Rika.)

Bit of a curse to be the first and leave an impression on people. You start to see your words in other people's stories. Or so I'd assume.

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Re: A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

Post by Hesmiyu » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:55 am

brythain wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:18 pm
There's one more possibility I'm including from my head-canon, compatible with your position. The location of Yamaku (which literally means 'mountain ward', or 'civic area on the mountain') is likely on the slope of Mount Aoba. That would mean that if you built part of the school against the hill, the levels would be staggered, you'd be on 'ground floor' but it would keep ascending like a split-level. So you might even have the 100 rooms on part of the complex lower down, then up and back would be 200, further up and further back 300.
I'm not sure of this location as I had thought it was generally assumed/accepted that Yamaku was near/replaces Sendai Castle in Sendai.
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Re: A Butterfly Dream - Iwanako/Hisao Inversion

Post by Leaty » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:43 pm

sloth4 wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:30 am
Then again, it's hard not to be derivative, especially with an underexploited concept. How many Rika authors turned her into a nihilist simply because the first major pseudo-route portrayed her as such? (Incidentally, this author, Downix, broke the mold with their own Rika fic. Which was compelling for the fact that it was an alternate Rika.)
I mean, sure, but afaik nobody ever copypasted Rikabro's work wholesale and just scribbled over his lines.

That's now happened to me three times. (At least once on the Reddit.)

I have seen the influence my work has had on other writers, and I've always been deeply appreciative of it, but writing on my writing is a harder form of flattery to appreciate.

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