The Blank Slate - (Updated 12-26) A Christmas Council

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Re: Firing Blanks - (Updated 5/20, Love Me, Dammit)

Post by Puncyclopedia » Fri May 29, 2015 5:42 pm

Hi! I read the two Shizune/Hanako oriented pieces, and will go back with commentary on the middle piece once I've read it.

I'm not a fan of Hanako. At all, for a lot of reasons, but I enjoyed this. The first piece did a good job of establishing their similarities within your universe, and while I quibble with some of your Shizune characterizations (minor quibbles that have me looking forward to how you think I handle her once I get there in Hindsight forever from now), I think you do a very good job of drawing the parallels.

To me, I don't see Hisao and Lilly's behavior as self-congratulatory at all in KS - but I 100% believe Hanako thinks it is. It's why I find the route in general tragic, in large part - she can't (IMO, at least) believe people would befriend her for genuine purposes (not even Lilly, which is saying a lot considering how much time they seem to spend together) The parallels of them being two people who can't change is interesting. It makes me wonder how well Shizune and Rin would get along, given the proper time.

The RP piece is I think the stronger one. It's amusing, sweet, witty, and a nice little look into a blossoming, if unlikely, friendship.
Characters: Shizune > Lilly > Rin > Emi > Hanako
Routes: Lilly > Rin > Shizune > Hanako > Emi

Replaying now, so subject to flux. Except Shizune. Shizune is best.

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Re: Firing Blanks - (Updated 5/20, Love Me, Dammit)

Post by Blank Mage » Fri May 29, 2015 7:00 pm

Yeeeees faaaaaans

Lilly fans might want to avoid this post! It got long!

Ahem. I'm surprised you like Game Night over the first one, to be honest. I kinda just hammered that one out in a few hours, because the idea of Pathfinder Shoujo demanded I put it to the forums immediately. I probably dislike Lilly as much as you dislike Hanako, because in the world of KS, her problems seem so trifling and petty that it's almost jarring. I mean, Rin suffers from isolation on the most fundamental level, Hanako's life literally went up in flames, Emi is afraid of losing anyone to the point of driving them all away, and Shizune can only seem to hurt people, without understanding why.

Lilly, um, doesn't want to disappoint her estranged parents.

I know, I know, everyone's mileage varies. My point here is that while I agree that Hisao doesn't treat Hanako as badly as she thinks he does, I think Lilly does, even if she doesn't think about it. It's really just how she is. She's so overly perfect that you can't help but feel that she's looking down on you by default. And someone like Hanako...? Well, I think Guest Poster and Dewelar did a better job with that than I ever will, so I should proooobably just stop there.

Right, anyway. I have one last Hanako / Shizune piece in the works and then I swear to God I'll post another chapter of LiT before the weekend is through, before someone murders me.
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Re: Firing Blanks - (Updated 5/20, Love Me, Dammit)

Post by Puncyclopedia » Fri May 29, 2015 10:43 pm

Lilly's problem is, I think, more akin to the others than you're giving it credit for. I would characterize her problem as having no one to confide her problems in - more accurately, she believes she doesn't. This actually dovetails with what you said - her best friend is Hanako, who obviously has deeper, more profound issues. Her boyfriend (in her arc) is Hisao, who looks normal from the outside yet is probably the most likely out of the main cast to actually die due to their disability. She's basically the den mother to her entire classroom. She's the student council representative. She has a million acquaintances. Everything LOOKS okay from the outside.

But when she DOES have problems? She bottles them up. She keeps them inside. She doesn't want to impose them on anyone else. She's the classic example of someone who's much better at helping others than herself. The decision of whether or not to go to Scotland is basically a decision between her family on one hand and everything else she holds dear on the other, and she's holding that inside of her.
I know, I know, everyone's mileage varies. My point here is that while I agree that Hisao doesn't treat Hanako as badly as she thinks he does, I think Lilly does, even if she doesn't think about it. It's really just how she is. She's so overly perfect that you can't help but feel that she's looking down on you by default.
My question would be, what in the game makes you think that Lilly's looking down on Hanako? I'm more than willing to go back and reread scenes, but I find it hard to take Lilly's formal matter and elegant ways and impute ill-intent to her based on those things. I

At the end of the day, I think the emphasis for why things go badly in Hanako bad end is more on Hanako than Lilly or Hisao. I know I'm in the minority on this, but I think people are often way too quick to forgive Hanako for any of her possible flaws (this also plays out in a lot of other routes, especially Emi's) at the expense of blaming Hisao (and in this case Lilly) for not being perceptive enough in situations where I think it would realistically be very difficult for them to actually be that perceptive. I don't think that either of them particularly coddle her - and to some extent, I think Hanako's behavior could very easily be read in a way that leads to coddling. That, IMO, is where the tragedy of the route comes in, as I said earlier - she just can't vocalize what she wants, and she's prone to seeing kindness through negative lenses after bad life experiences. It's a perfect storm of horrible.

Sorry for the giant wall o'text!
Characters: Shizune > Lilly > Rin > Emi > Hanako
Routes: Lilly > Rin > Shizune > Hanako > Emi

Replaying now, so subject to flux. Except Shizune. Shizune is best.

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Re: Firing Blanks - (Updated 5/20, Love Me, Dammit)

Post by Blank Mage » Sat May 30, 2015 12:18 am

Puncyclopedia wrote:Lilly's problem is, I think, more akin to the others than you're giving it credit for. I would characterize her problem as having no one to confide her problems in - more accurately, she believes she doesn't. This actually dovetails with what you said - her best friend is Hanako, who obviously has deeper, more profound issues. Her boyfriend (in her arc) is Hisao, who looks normal from the outside yet is probably the most likely out of the main cast to actually die due to their disability. She's basically the den mother to her entire classroom. She's the student council representative. She has a million acquaintances. Everything LOOKS okay from the outside..

But when she DOES have problems? She bottles them up. She keeps them inside. She doesn't want to impose them on anyone else. She's the classic example of someone who's much better at helping others than herself. The decision of whether or not to go to Scotland is basically a decision between her family on one hand and everything else she holds dear on the other, and she's holding that inside of her.
I see your point, and normally I would love a character who feels conflicted about reaching out, but it's the scale of her problems that annoys me. Yes, Lilly has trouble deciding whether or not to move. Saki is going to die soon. How am I supposed to get worked up over something as minor as living arrangements with THAT on the table? Yes, I know, these things don't equate, it's more than just moving, it's her whole life, but to me it all comes down to Lilly not being brave enough to say 'no' to her parents. She would likely strike me as far more sympathetic if we ever saw what goes on behind her mask, but given that it's Hisao's PoV, we don't have that, and I can't bring myself to attach much importance to what I feel is a pretty simple decision without it.
My question would be, what in the game makes you think that Lilly's looking down on Hanako? I'm more than willing to go back and reread scenes, but I find it hard to take Lilly's formal matter and elegant ways and impute ill-intent to her based on those things.
Like I said, I never said she was doing it intentionally. I don't think Lilly's inability to be open is about not wanting to trouble others, I attribute it more to pride. I never liked how Lilly will tell you that it's fine to use casual speech, but then never use it herself. She lets others open up to her, but refuses to do the same. She has this double standard for herself, never letting others see her flaws, even if they're eating her from the inside. To me, that screams pride far more than it does anything else. Even Hisao can show Hanako a more vulnerable side, showing his scars and relating his experiances in the hospital. Lilly won't even tell Hanako about a very important, very imminent trip that will likely affect the both of them significantly.
At the end of the day, I think the emphasis for why things go badly in Hanako bad end is more on Hanako than Lilly or Hisao. I know I'm in the minority on this, but I think people are often way too quick to forgive Hanako for any of her possible flaws (this also plays out in a lot of other routes, especially Emi's) at the expense of blaming Hisao (and in this case Lilly) for not being perceptive enough in situations where I think it would realistically be very difficult for them to actually be that perceptive. I don't think that either of them particularly coddle her - and to some extent, I think Hanako's behavior could very easily be read in a way that leads to coddling. That, IMO, is where the tragedy of the route comes in, as I said earlier - she just can't vocalize what she wants, and she's prone to seeing kindness through negative lenses after bad life experiences. It's a perfect storm of horrible.
Completely agree, but she's a product of what her scars have made her. She's been betrayed enough that trust no longer comes naturally. I think Lilly has the same problem, but unlike Hanako, she has no real justification. (I mean, how is it Hisao's fault that she didn't tell him about her trip to Scotland?)
Sorry for the giant wall o'text!
Dude, I get to talk to intelligent people about things I like. I love walls.
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Re: Firing Blanks - (Updated 5/20) Basically just Shizune/Ha

Post by Mirage_GSM » Sat May 30, 2015 5:06 am

She has this double standard for herself, never letting others see her flaws, even if they're eating her from the inside. To me, that screams pride far more than it does anything else. Even Hisao can show Hanako a more vulnerable side, showing his scars and relating his experiances in the hospital. Lilly won't even tell Hanako about a very important, very imminent trip that will likely affect the both of them significantly.
It's that double standard that irks me the most about her route:
Honesty is the red thread of her route. In every relevant choice point Hisao has to be completely honest to her, has to share his most private secrets with her, even when he doesn't really know her that well in the beginning - failure will result in the bad end.
On the other hand Lilly herself is unable to open up to Hisao about a major decision that will affect both their lives (and Hanako's as well of course)
Sorry for the giant wall o'text!
Dude, that's no wall of text...
Wait till Leaty shows up :-)
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

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Re: Firing Blanks - (Updated 5/20) Basically just Shizune/Ha

Post by Leaty » Sat May 30, 2015 11:32 am

Mirage_GSM wrote:Dude, that's no wall of text...
Wait till Leaty shows up :-)
Image

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Re: Firing Blanks - (Updated 5/20) Basically just Shizune/Ha

Post by Mirage_GSM » Sat May 30, 2015 2:23 pm

Did you make this on the fly or do you keep it handy for such situations? :-)

Suggestion for an addition:
Pay two red mana: Wall of Text loses Defender and gains Intimidate until end of turn.
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

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Re: Firing Blanks - (Updated 5/20) Basically just Shizune/Ha

Post by Puncyclopedia » Sat May 30, 2015 7:59 pm

Back after a day out, so I'll tap three mana, Dragonskull Summit for black, and play my Wall of Text. (Random sidenote - I don't know if anyone's heard of Weiss Schwarz, but I'm slowly using Magic Set Editor to make a Katawa Shoujo set for that TCG - where in Fan Works would be a good place to post such cards?)

First, to Mirage's point - I agree. It's the most frustrating aspect of that route from my perspective as a reader of the novel. It feels like the game basically forces you to make things worse before they can get better - which happens, also, to varying extents on Hanako and Emi's routes. Hisao even makes efforts to try and help, but is basically ignored - and then the end of Lilly's route has him thinking he's an idiot for not helping, which I found rather jarring, given...yeah.

Onto Blank, and where the real wall of text begins:

It's easy to neglect Lilly's issues because she comes off as (and in many ways is) the best adjusted major character in the game - people forget, for example, that Hisao, in spite of looking normal on the outside, is the (main) character whose disability is most likely to kill him, by a rather large factor. My sympathy for Lilly comes largely because I know how difficult it is to be the person everyone thinks has everything together, and yet is suffering on the inside. I also know a lot of people who've been in that situation.

People like Lilly don't get help anywhere near as often as they should. Their friends don't have interventions to help, because they don't know what's happening. We can't see behind Lilly's mask - at least until the end of Lilly good end. But the way she acts in general for me is enough to see her as a well-meaning soul who tries to keep burdens off of other people whenever possible. Obviously, she should tell Hisao and Hanako that she's thinking about moving to Scotland. But she can't - and the fact that she can't is akin to why Hanako can't get across what she really wants to Lilly and Hisao. The underlying reason why for Hanako is more traumatic, but Lilly is no less incapable than Hanako is just because her origin story isn't as horrific. Celebrities and wealthy people suffer from mental blocks just as normal people do. Your status and station in life don't change that - even if they can, at times as here, make for less sympathetic victims. (Incidentally, I think Shizune gets some of her dislike for the same reason - she comes off as together and capable in a game full of people who simply aren't. I'm not going to tip my hand too much, because a lot of this is going to come up in what I write, but Shizune's life pre-Hisao strikes me as extremely depressing and lonely.)

I think you assume Lilly's decision is far simpler than I do - I think it's nigh impossible. Saying no to your parents is an extraordinarily difficult thing - particularly if you're someone who gets along with them well, and never really has had to go against them on anything. It's not a no-brainer to stay in Japan - she has a good friend in Hanako, a whole bunch of classmates who look up to her, and Hisao, her boyfriend for a reasonably short period of time that she likes. It would be one thing if she held a grudge against her parents for being so far away, but she doesn't really. In fact, that could be all the more reason for her to want to go to Scotland, to actually be able to spend proper time with them as a family. It's a lot to weigh, and there's really no right choice. No matter what she decides, she's going to end up carrying something upsetting with her for a while.

You said that you don't think Lilly looks down on people intentionally - but didn't offer any evidence as to instances in which she looks down on people. I need more than "Hanako thinks Lilly looks down on her because of the way she acts" (which I can believe, for sure) to jump to "Lilly looks down on people," as what Hanako thinks can be very far from the actual truth. I consider Lilly telling people to use casual speech with her just her trying to make people feel at ease BECAUSE she's so formal. She doesn't expect people to keep up with her pace, nor does she judge them for not doing so. It wouldn't surprise me if this was in large part because of her interactions with Shizune - who by and large DOES judge people on if they can meet her pace or not - Risk game as Shizune flag being a perfect example.

Re: the general double standard - I just don't see pride as the reason. She allows herself to be seen in highly non-optimal situations by Hisao at many points throughout the story. She's surprisingly self-depricating (much like Hisao). She's a person who's conquered an awful lot in her life (blindness, a mother and father who live far away, living only with one of her siblings) and gotten herself to a position where people look up to her, but she carries all of that with her. She certainly can be criticized for holding everything in - and I definitely don't think that Lilly's without blame, I just think she needs to be blamed for what I see as the right reasons.

Hanako is absolutely a product of what made her. I'm sympathetic to that - but at the same time, when I have to assign blame based on action in a situation, that sympathy doesn't come into account. If I believe that Hanako is misreading someone's actions, no matter how earnestly she's misreading them, I have to call her on it. I don't feel like Lilly and Hanako are the same in this regard - if I had to say on record why I think she doesn't tell either of them about possibly moving, it's because she's afraid that she'd end up making the decision based on what they want, rather than what she wants. She's so good at putting other people ahead of herself, and this is an instance where she has to decide on her own - it is her future, after all. In doing so, though, she goes too far in the other direction - by cutting them out, she doesn't get a full and accurate picture of everything she needs to take into account, so it's not surprising she decides to go back home. Incidentally, I really don't know which decision is right or wrong for her - but I do think her process of going about it is all wrong.

...and I think that's everything. If I missed something, I apologize.
Characters: Shizune > Lilly > Rin > Emi > Hanako
Routes: Lilly > Rin > Shizune > Hanako > Emi

Replaying now, so subject to flux. Except Shizune. Shizune is best.

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Re: Firing Blanks - (Updated 5/20) Basically just Shizune/Ha

Post by Blank Mage » Sun May 31, 2015 12:30 am

Starting this thread was the best idea I ever had. So much awesome discussion.

I can't quote point all of that on this phone, but I think the issue with your counterpoint is that it kind of locks Lilly into a no-win situation with me. If she's prideful, then my earlier points stand. If she's just uncomfortable with troubling others, than she's left without any negative traits at all, because 'not wanting to burden people with your troubles' and 'self-depreciating' are about as negative as 'sorry I got blood on your knife'.

I attribute character flaws to Lilly because she has to have some, damn it. The alternative is worse; that Lilly is literally perfect, aside from caring too much about others. Now, this is tricky, bit I think I know what irks me. Lilly shares traits with many of the other characters, and her reluctance to open up is certainly a flaw. But why is she reluctant? What harrowing, troubling story made Lilly so dead set on self reliance? Shizune tells us a story of how she hurt Misha, and how she lives with that. Emi has lost much, and fears losing more. Hanako can't see past her own scars. Rin stares into the abyss. What is Lilly's story? You can claim that she's overcome much, but it's just conjecture. It's never really brought up in detail. She never seems to defy her image, unlike the others, she doesn't have a moment I can point to and say 'That's god damn heart breaking.'

Her whole arc never has her really, truly change for the worse. The climax of her route has her being very dramatically unsure of herself, but even then, she does so in a way that's nothing short of wholesome and beautiful. Her reasons for cracking even that much are comparatively light and fluffy. I want there to be a dark side, a backlash, some ugly part of her that makes itself known. I want her to struggle with something that shreds her composure, in a way that doesn't look like the tear jerking climax to a romance movie. Anything less doesn't give her much depth.

I do agree with your points that Lilly's move, and her feelings on it, are her own. I can't easily say 'Lilly shouldn't be upset about that', given that emotions are subjective, and so often irrational, but no less troubling for it. But by that same token, I just can't find sympathy for someone without knowing what I should sympathize with. It'll take more than uncertainty to sway me.

I'm beginning to think that I'm just really determined to not like Lilly, but you're making some great points, and I hope that I'm not coming off as antagonistic. If you'd like, I will gladly shake hands and thank you for this gentlemanly debate. We might hit Lilly bedrock soon.
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Re: Firing Blanks - (Updated 5/20) Basically just Shizune/Ha

Post by HipsterJoe » Sun May 31, 2015 2:02 am

Mind if I jump in? I'll try to be more intelligent than I was in Alpaca's thread.
Blank Mage wrote:What harrowing, troubling story made Lilly so dead set on self reliance?
I feel like you are underplaying Lilly's past to some degree. Her parent's left her with Akira when she was 12. Even though she's not bitter or angry about it, this is clearly going to have an effect on her. At the time of the story, Akira isn't presented as an ideal guardian—I imagine this would have only been exasperated when she was 19 and 20. Lilly clearly had to mature very rapidly and we get hints of this based on how she was the one cooking for Akira and herself when she was in middle school. While none of this is necessarily harrowing, is it really that surprising that she is so focused on self reliance?

The other thing I want to bring up is that from a certain perspective, Lilly's situation at Yamaku isn't that different from Shizune's. While Lilly clearly gets along with her classmates and they care for her, she's not shown to be actually close to anyone besides Hanako. Lilly isolation isn't because of a communication problem though, it's by choice. I think this speaks to an inability to trust in other people that stems from her parents leaving. Her route reinforces this in my mind: you can only get her good end, and therefore her trust, if you are completely honest with her and prove yourself as trustworthy. It even finishes with Hisao's promise to bring her to Tanabata the following year, a declaration of his long term permanence.
Blank Mage wrote:You can claim that she's overcome much, but it's just conjecture. It's never really brought up in detail. She never seems to defy her image, unlike the others, she doesn't have a moment I can point to and say 'That's god damn heart breaking.'
Above said, I can't really argue with your point. The novel gives us an endpoint and we're left to make our own best guesses about the trajectory that brought her there. She never really has moment where she breaks down and opens up in the novel. Re-reading the good end, it's Hisao who does most of the talking about wanting to be someone she can trust and rely on.
Blank Mage wrote:If you'd like, I will gladly shake hands and thank you for this gentlemanly debate. We might hit Lilly bedrock soon.
Sorry for continuing this, I promise it wasn't to try to convince you that Lilly is best girl. I just couldn't get this out of my mind after reading Pun's and your takes on Lilly.

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Re: Firing Blanks - (Updated 5/20) Basically just Shizune/Ha

Post by Blank Mage » Sun May 31, 2015 3:20 am

HipsterJoe wrote:Mind if I jump in? I'll try to be more intelligent than I was in Alpaca's thread.
Sorry about that, it's just that I proofread that one-shot, and personally recommended that he cut the sentence where he explicitly stated that Hanako was the narrator, with the advice 'Always allude, never inform, besides, it's pretty obvious with the whole everything is on fire angle.' And then the second comment.... :oops:
HipsterJoe wrote:Sorry for continuing this, I promise it wasn't to try to convince you that Lilly is best girl. I just couldn't get this out of my mind after reading Pun's and your takes on Lilly.
I don't know why everyone keeps apologizing for bringing good points up in defense of their opinion. I guess it's just human nature. I only added that last sentence because I think it's becoming obvious that our interpretations of Lilly are based on fundamentally different moral values, and that there is no 'correct' view. (I think it's funny that we have such different ideas, and Shizune is still our favorite character. I wonder what we see in her?) I don't want to monopolize the 'last word', but at the same time, I don't want him to feel pressured to continue a debate if he's getting annoyed. That, ah, happens kind of often with me. Essentially, I'm just nervous that what I consider to be an interesting debate doesn't end up becoming an argument, especially given the quality of his work and subsequent respect I have for his opinion.
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Re: Firing Blanks - (Updated 5/20) Basically just Shizune/Ha

Post by Alpacalypse » Sun May 31, 2015 4:16 am

Great, I saw a debate and now I have to jump in on it. God dammit, I hate my brain sometimes :x

Anyway, I'm actually going to jump in on Blank's side here, for one reason - Lilly is a proud character. She might attempt to conceal that pride most of the time, but you do see flashes of it in the game, the first being Cold War. I say that because you can see her rising to Shizune's challenge, but also being extraordinarily pissed off if Hisao sides with Shizune over her. There's also the fishing scene in Shizune's route, where Akira states that Lilly just wants to compete and beat her cousin.

However, the biggest moment is during the scene (IIRC) Morning Reverie, when Lilly gets knocked over by Kenji. She gets way more irritated than she has any real right to be for something like that, which (in my interpretation at least) probably stems from her normally being able to navigate the grounds just fine, the incident immediately throwing her limitations into the for. While she's okay with people mentioning the fact that she is blind, with the way she's able to get around so easily, her limitations are nowhere near as pronounced as, say, Shizune's, even though Lilly's is the more visible condition. Having those limitations be emphasised so suddenly, especially in front of her boyfriend, must sting pretty badly.
As somebody who is very prideful (even with my usual self-depreciation) and has actually reacted the same way as Lilly to being tripped over/ pranked in other ways, that scene pretty well cements Lilly's pride for me.

Not going to argue with the effect that her past has had on her, though. It's pretty rough, to say the least.

That's my two cents on the issue, anyhow. Feel free to destroy the argument constructively if you so desire.

However, I disagree that Shizune is sole bestgirl. Every girl is bestgirl.
Except Rin. I agree with Munch on that front.
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Re: Firing Blanks - (Updated 5/20) Basically just Shizune/Ha

Post by Gajzla » Sun May 31, 2015 8:30 am

I hope its okay for me to chip in.

I think one of the problems is playing top trumps with problems, in which case Lilly and Shizune both from privileged backgrounds have no right to complain or have a highlight on their problems than say Hanako or Emi.

But in reality things don’t work like that, if you have a really bad day today your not going to suddenly feel better because you know someone else in the world is suffering much more. Personal problems are personal for a reason.

I think Lilly’s pride is as much a negative as positive trait, she becomes as much as a leader as Shizune, there for her troops but careful never to revel herself, like an agony aunt. And I doubt her childhood was nearly as comfortable as people seem to imagine, form 12 she was left almost alone in a world just unsuited for her as it is for Shizune. So she was forced to find independence, to look after herself and knowing that if she had a problem 9 times out of 10 she would have to handle it herself.

So when we get to Yamaku she’s already more mature than perhaps any other student and she quickly finds her place in a mothering roll for her blind class and Hanako, though choice or accident its hard to tell. I don’t think she ever looks down on anyone, at least not in her mind, but communication problems are not exclusive to Shizune.
Puncyclopedia wrote:I think you assume Lilly's decision is far simpler than I do - I think it's nigh impossible. Saying no to your parents is an extraordinarily difficult thing - particularly if you're someone who gets along with them well, and never really has had to go against them on anything. It's not a no-brainer to stay in Japan - she has a good friend in Hanako, a whole bunch of classmates who look up to her, and Hisao, her boyfriend for a reasonably short period of time that she likes. It would be one thing if she held a grudge against her parents for being so far away, but she doesn't really. In fact, that could be all the more reason for her to want to go to Scotland, to actually be able to spend proper time with them as a family. It's a lot to weigh, and there's really no right choice. No matter what she decides, she's going to end up carrying something upsetting with her for a while.
I can’t agree more with this point, a life changing decision is never simple, especially when your a person who cares deeply for those around her and whatever choice she makes will hurt someone.

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Re: Firing Blanks - (Updated 5/20) Basically just Shizune/Ha

Post by Puncyclopedia » Sun May 31, 2015 1:11 pm

WALL OF TEXT, ROUND THREE, FIGHT! Bullet points this time.

- Most Importantly - I'm not saying that Lilly ISN'T prideful. She fairly clearly is. I'm simply arguing that pride isn't the reason she keeps people shut out in the ways that she does in the game. "Not wanting to burden people with your troubles" is a lot more negative of a trait than you think it is - because realistically, it makes deeper personal connections in a lot of ways impossible. You want her to have a harrowing backstory - but her self-reliance is fairly easily explained by the fact that she grew up alone with her older sister. By necessity, you become more self-reliant in situations like that. A lot of what I like about Lilly (and Shizune, too) is they don't have the clearly traumatic backstories that Hanako and Emi do. They're people whose emotional scars are less directly related to the circumstances of their disability (though Shizune's are moreso than Lilly's.)

- The only reason that Emi and Hanako (ex) have dark sides that we know about is that they have berserk buttons that are fairly easy to hit in the course of gameplay. Shizune/Lilly/Rin don't. They all struggle with something, though, Shizune (and Rin, really) struggle with being a square peg in the round hole that is life. Lilly struggles with essentially being the caretaker for so many people that there's no one left she can confide in because she's the one everyone ELSE confides in. Again, I like the variety of this in the game and the way the routes play out.

- The fact that Lilly can't defy her own image is itself the heartbreaking part. In that sense, really, it's the same sort of heartbreaking that Shizune is, though worse for me, because with Shizune I really believe that she would rather change the world than change herself. Lilly is simply incapable of it. I would define Lilly's character flaws as thus: Excessive pride on occasion, her tendency to bottle everything in, her desire to be the proverbial mother hen to her flock at the expense of other things. Written down on paper, they seem fairly benevolent, but when you take them all in combination, you can see how they work to cause problems for her. Prioritizing other people ahead of yourself (or exclusively over yourself) almost always ends poorly for everyone involved.

- We all bring bits and pieces of ourselves to any form of media we enjoy. KS is no different. I find Lilly more enjoyable largely because she's not as clearly and dramatically badly off as some of the other characters are. She's more subtle. She's subject to people calling "first world problems" on her, but I think that if you're willing to read into her actions, you'll find the depth that you're looking for. It would be one thing if people weren't willing to read into ANYONE'S actions, but I feel that people are willing to give more sympathetic characters the benefit of the doubt and make positive inferences on their behalfs. That's the double standard that bothers me a little. It's understandable, because, again, we bring what we bring to the table. Some of us know Lillies. Others Shizunes or Rins. I personally know, and have known, a good amount of Lillies over the years. It affects my judgment, I can't pretend otherwise.

- I notice that I keep tying together Shizune and Lilly in these walls of text - and I do so because they're a lot more similar than either of them would want to admit. They're both prideful people who believe very strongly in what they believe in, they both look far more composed on the surface than they are beneath it, and they both place value on being leaders in their own ways. As for what it is that I like about Shizune...some of that will come out in what I write. At some point, Blank, I'll PM you the entirety of the reasons.

- @Alpaca: Agreed on the pride front, as indicated up there. The more I read all of the back and forth, the more I think it's an "empHAsis on sylLAble" situation. Whether Lily wants to bottle things up because she doesn't want people to see her in a negative light because she's too prideful, or because she bottles things up because she doesn't want to worry her charges, many of whom are going through issues of their own, is a pretty thin line in terms of arguing. It's testament to the quality of the game and the emotions it inspires that we can dig in heels on both sides though, I think!

- I co-sign pretty much everything in Gajzla's post.

I'm sure I forgot something, but i'm more than happy to shake hands and agree to disagree on Lilly and allow this to return to its regularly scheduled one-shot discussion. xD
Characters: Shizune > Lilly > Rin > Emi > Hanako
Routes: Lilly > Rin > Shizune > Hanako > Emi

Replaying now, so subject to flux. Except Shizune. Shizune is best.

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Alpacalypse
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Re: Firing Blanks - (Updated 5/20) Basically just Shizune/Ha

Post by Alpacalypse » Sun May 31, 2015 2:29 pm

Puncyclopedia wrote:Wall of text
Yeah, that's pretty much right I think. I mistook your point earlier, thought you meant she wasn't prideful. Whoops :oops:
It seems fairly likely that Lilly's inability to confide in anyone is more of a combination of pride and dislike of worrying other people rather than one or the other.

Also:
Puncyclopedia wrote:Prioritizing other people ahead of yourself (or exclusively over yourself) almost always ends poorly for everyone involved.
Heard that, Shirou? Somebody's spelled it out for you again!
I have been watching far too much of Ufotable's Unlimited Blade Works adaptation
I am the harbinger of your destruction... By herbivorous, mountain dwelling quadrupeds... fear me
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I also write now, apparently. Since everyone else does it, I'm putting it here
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I have also discovered that I'm a decent proofreader. Anybody with SPaG problems is free to PM me their work for a thorough analysis and/or evisceration. Depends on how I'm feeling.

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