Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

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LorSquirrel
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by LorSquirrel » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:06 am

Would you be surprised to learn that I was originally going to try, and actually do a fic with a wendigo as the main threat? I really like native American culture (possibly because I'm descended from Aztecs) and the Bendigo was something I wanted to use in a ks fic if only because it sounded interesting to me... but there is a bit of a problem with having a wendigo in Japan. The problem being that they are something that is pretty much 100% part of northern native American mythology. More specifically around the great lakes, and the Atlantic coast areas because those are the areas that the Algonquian people (the native American people from whom the stories of wendigo were first told) lived.

So, it would be incredibly difficult to come up with a good reason for wendigo to show up in friggin' Japan, and even harder to explain how it gets to Yamaku.

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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Mirage_GSM » Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:55 am

Respiratory transmission would be the only thing where it is somewhat palusible that the rate of attrition could be close to favourable for the zombies. It's still kind of impossible for it to spread from one continent to another, since zombies can't pilot ships or airplanes. Heck, if they don't have some kind of migratory instinct, it would be unlikely they got from one big city to the next before falling apart either from the elements and maggots (dead bodies) or from malnutrition (infected live bodies).
The problem with that one is that it makes telling a story kind of hard, since all characters would be infected after the first time they smashed a zombie to pulp.
Except if you have the tried and tested "1% of immune people". And that would disqualify it for a KS fic, because you could at best hope for one or two Yamaku students to be among those.
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by forgetmenot » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:51 am

Mirage_GSM wrote:Except if you have the tried and tested "1% of immune people". And that would disqualify it for a KS fic, because you could at best hope for one or two Yamaku students to be among those.
Maybe being susceptible to zombifying viruses is everyone else's disability.

Poor Misha.

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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by bhtooefr » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:15 am

Myself, I'm of the opinion that zombies began as a rabies meme.

The whole decaying thing obviously wouldn't happen (because that implies that the circulatory system has ceased functioning, and therefore oxygen and ATP wouldn't be making it to the cells, and therefore the zombie would quickly be unable to move).

Rabies has a quite long incubation period, too, so it COULD spread across continents easily. However, it's also easy to detect, fairly easy to prevent in the immediate aftermath of a bite, and fairly easy to avoid getting bitten. And, it's even been cured in four cases, I believe (the Milwaukee protocol).
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Mirage_GSM » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:41 am

bhtooefr wrote:Rabies has a quite long incubation period, too, so it COULD spread across continents easily. However, it's also easy to detect, fairly easy to prevent in the immediate aftermath of a bite, and fairly easy to avoid getting bitten. And, it's even been cured in four cases, I believe (the Milwaukee protocol).
Also, long incubation times are one thing I've never seen in a zombie story before... Might have made them a lot more realistic, though (relatively speaking of course.)
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Leaty » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:13 pm

ProfAllister wrote:Which then brings us to the next objection: Leaty's claim that a zombie story is inherently juvenile. The easy smart-ass response is that people could say that about a cripple-porn game.
The notion that Katawa Shoujo is "cripple porn" is, in and of itself, inherently juvenile.

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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by monkeywitha6pack » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:54 pm

Leaty wrote:
ProfAllister wrote:Which then brings us to the next objection: Leaty's claim that a zombie story is inherently juvenile. The easy smart-ass response is that people could say that about a cripple-porn game.
The notion that Katawa Shoujo is "cripple porn" is, in and of itself, inherently juvenile.
I have to agree with you on that
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Lydon » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:50 am

Something that has bugged me with all the zombie fics out for a while now is I guess the elephant in the room. How do you realistically expect most of the Katawa cast to survive any "after the end" type of story, much less zombies?

Granted Hisao and all the girls are some very driven and talented people that overcome some major hardships. But as cold and mean as it sounds, people with disabilities do best and thrive the most in a modern civilized society. Hisao would be dead as soon as his medications ran out. After the end, super specialized medication like that is going to be hard if not impossible to find. Plus medication has a shelf life. Eventually the meds will run out. And then Hisao will die. If he doesn't before then from all the strain of post-apocalypse life.

Lilly and Rin, driven and independent as they are do need some help. In an apocalypse setting, this is a lot harder. Rin can at least walk and move and eat unaided though not being able to use basic tools as well as a normal person puts a major hamper on just living and defending herself. Lilly would need day to day care and guidance. Plus she is very easy pickings for anything wanting to hurt or kill her. She can't see what to attack and she can't really run away, since she can't see which way to run or avoid any hazards.

Emi gets around well, so as long as she keeps and maintains her legs and doesn't slip up (like in the VN) she can make a good run of it. Shizune, while deaf isn't as at much as a disadvantage as Lilly, still won't be able to communicate with most others well and won't be able to hear threats approach. At least she can see and move around hazards.

Hanako rounding out the five main girls has the at the same time the best and worst chance of making it. As all her senses work and she has no physical handicaps, she at first glance has the best chance of making it after the end. However, Hanako already suffers from many emotional and mental issues and living when Lilly (and Hisao) could be dead might simply be more than she can take. With that she would face the worse thing that can hinder a person's ability to survive. Their will to live. Hanako might simply give up or off herself in guilt. Even if she doesn't go that far, without those she loves in her life, she might lack the drive needed to survive in such a harsh setting.

This is just taking into the fact that support structures are gone and its a far more primitive lifestyle. This doesn't even begin to take into the account some of the really messed up things human beings can do to each other once rule of law is gone. And I am not just talking simple murder/rape. Take someone like Lilly or Rin and since they are going to now need help with basic survival a truly evil person can twist them and make them utterly dependent on them. A cute kind girl that now is totally reliant on YOU for food, water, shelter, and safety. It's a sociopath's power trip dream come true.

Now granted not every human is an evil douche and many people will try and help the disabled as best they can. That does not change the fact that in the apocalypse zombie or otherwise the deck is firmly stacked against the cast of Yamaku.

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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Comrade » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:05 am

They are not meant to survive.
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Lydon » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:37 am

Comrade wrote:They are not meant to survive.
That makes me sad. =(

Well then that is not as bad, if writing a darkfic where everyone dies is your goal. That at least doesn't break suspension of disbelief. Not light fluffy reading to be sure, but at least it makes sense.

Why can't we just have light happy fics where everyone just lives life and deals with the normal problems that come up in life? Just to be different. Instead so much violence. j/k

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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by LorSquirrel » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:47 am

In a after the end story I believe the whole point is that everyone eventually dies. Even the main characters. Because if all of civilization is gone how the hell do the characters live through it? Even the best fortified place in the world won't stop millions upon millions of zombies from over running you.

Honestly I'm starting to wish I'd never posted my story if it was going to set off this damn powder keg that the other ones were apparently sitting on.


Note that my fic ISN'T a after the end type of story!

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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Lydon » Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:51 pm

You could live after the fall of civilization. It just isn't easy. It's a much more primitive way of life. Hell even even most of the Katawa cast could maybe make it providing they had help and support and more than a bit of luck. The odds just aren't in favor of it.

The thing that bothers me with all these zombie fics isn't that they have all the cast die or live, but rather most of them are just mindless violence and the random deaths of characters that admit it we all care about.

None explore the tragedy, drama, or horror that the apocalyptic setting can invoke. How about where Hisao and someone he loves just have a quiet moment together at the end? Or Misha and Shizune's relationship after failing to save Hisao for whatever reason? Or hell Hanako trying to save Lilly and/or Hisao and have her dealing...or not dealing with the failure of doing so.

Or at the other end, have Emi running from Zombies..and win. Hisao try to be the master of romance with someone "living challenged" ala warm bodies. Or for the hell of it Hanako wielding a chainsword katana because admit it the fourm can't handle that much awesome.

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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by LorSquirrel » Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:00 pm

Lydon wrote: ...Or at the other end, have Emi running from Zombies..and win. Hisao try to be the master of romance with someone "living challenged" ala warm bodies. Or for the hell of it Hanako wielding a chainsword katana because admit it the fourm can't handle that much awesome.
I was originally going for this type of zombie story, but I found myself getting bored of thinking up just how many ways I could make Kenji, and Hisao take down hoards of zombies. I got to them pushing a tanker down the hill of Yamaku to blow up half of the town. It was at this point that I thought to myself, "This is getting kind of ridiculous..." and then I decided that focusing on five, or six people, and putting them in situation where they can developers would probably be more interesting.

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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by bhtooefr » Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:20 pm

Lydon wrote:Hisao try to be the master of romance with someone "living challenged" ala warm bodies.
Protip: If The Stink of Flesh did it, it probably shouldn't be done.

Surviving after an apocalypse would be an interesting one, although zombies in particular are a poor choice for apocalyptic-scale disasters. (There actually used to be a podcast that interviewed various engineers about how they'd survive and rebuild in a zombie apocalypse scenario.)

So, the characters actually at Yamaku, that get screen time and lines (and this will include the April Fool's post - they got images and lines, after all), that are most likely to survive through anything apocalyptic:

Miki for obvious reasons. Her disability probably causes her some problems, but they wouldn't be of immediate concern in the apocalypse, mainly the recovery.
Emi for the same reasons, although if it's one in which she needs to escape injury, she could screw herself up and die that way. She doesn't strike me as suicidal, if she loses Hisao for instance. She will need to rely on a friend to help keep her together, though.
Nurse, with the caveat that he's also a target if the apocalypse results in a loss of order. We're talking about Japan, though, and he's the kind of target you want to keep alive.
Mutou, with the caveat that he may be too distracted to escape injury.
Kenji, simply because he's prepared for absolutely ridiculous eventualities. His mental issues could present a problem, but he seems to be able to turn that down when the shit hits the fan.

Now, for the second tier:

Hanako, although escaping injury would require not having a full catatonic panic attack. She can run fast, although without much stamina (both due to her injuries (reducing her ability to sweat) and her lack of training), so she can get out of immediate danger. If the apocalypse involves fire, that could be a nasty one for her. I think suicide isn't on the table for her, especially if she can make friends with Emi. ("You know, if we get through this, you should totally try out for the track team, Hanako.")
Shizune. She would be the last to know about what's going down. If she DID figure it out, then she's got a halfway decent chance of living, far better than Lilly for sure. Communication is a problem, though.
Yuuko. Panic attacks are a concern here, too, and the band of survivors would include her presumed ex, but if she can get through that...
Misha. It's dependent on a combination of whether Shizune dies, whether it's Misha's fault, and whether stealth is needed. If the answer to the both of the first two are yes, or the third one is yes, Misha dies. If the first is yes but the second is no, maybe. If the answer is no to all three, she lives.

The goners (although there's still ways they could survive), and they may be liabilities to a party they're in:

Hisao. The exception is if a medication supply can be secured, and he's on Emi's exercise program (not necessarily on her route). If both of those aren't true, he'll die, and he'll know it. I could see him working with Lilly to ensure everyone else's safety, knowing that they were both going to die. Otherwise, he'll be fine.
Lilly. She may actually not be a goner if she doesn't have to escape anything (and Yamaku is well-placed if it's a natural disaster), and if the first signs of the apocalypse are audible, she'll be the among the first to know. However, if it does require escaping unassisted, even if she were capable of escaping, she may well martyr herself so Hanako, Hisao, and her classmates could live, even if it were utterly unnecessary.
Saki. Her disability would get in the way, really.

The real liabilities, the ones most likely to not just die, but also get others killed through their actions:

Rin. She can't take care of herself, simply, and Emi doesn't give enough of a damn about her I think. Even Hisao on her route would even get frustrated with her, I think. And the whole wandering thing might attract negative attention.
Rika. Oh, she is SO fucked. She'd probably be the first one dead, even, although this is admittedly using Rikabro's characterization. And even if that weren't the case, she's like Hisao but with less physical capability. And, she'd probably attract negative attention on purpose.

I think that's everyone except Aoi and Keiko. Their disabilities aren't revealed, either. With what few lines they got, Aoi and Keiko seem to be foils, with Keiko being the more grounded one. I think they'll both be fine, though, unless their disabilities get in the way.

Now, if I had to pick a party of 4 Yamaku students from the above list (so no Nurse, Mutou, or Yuuko) to survive any given apocalypse... Hanako, Emi, Keiko, and Miki. The rationale there... Hanako is the brains of the operation, as well as being stealthy and hyper-perceptive. Keiko is the leader (I'd use Shizune, but she doesn't get along with Emi, and I need Emi as emotional support for Hanako (because the party is stronger at this point without Lilly or Hisao replacing any of these characters - both of them are somewhat of liabilities (even though they can make up for it in some situations, in this one they wouldn't help)), plus the communication barrier is a huge one). Emi and Miki are the brawn.

Centering the party on Kenji, I think I'd do it as... Kenji, Hanako, Miki, and Hisao (who would be kept alive by everyone else, and would in turn keep both Kenji and Hanako grounded). I ran out of male characters, and Hanako and Miki are probably the two "useful" females that Kenji has the least trouble with (unless he thinks of Miki as infiltrating the manly stronghold). That's a brainier party, with Hisao being the leader, Hisao, Hanako, and Kenji being the brains, Hanako and Kenji having stealth, Kenji having lots of equipment, and Miki being the brawn. The only other problem I could see is Hanako and Miki's history coming into play.

The strategies for those two parties would be very, very different, really. The first party could be extremely nomadic, not being reliant on any fixed base. The second party would be confined to a small area due to Hisao's disability. I could see a strategy for the latter party being something along the lines of, Kenji and Hanako go on scouting missions, then Kenji and Miki attack another party's camp while Hanako looks out for other threats, then they return to their own camp to debrief, and Hisao and Hanako treat any injuries suffered. In that strategy, Rika may even be a target, seeing as she has medication that Hisao could use.
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Lydon » Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:18 pm

bhtooefr wrote:Protip: If The Stink of Flesh did it, it probably shouldn't be done.
I don't know who that is, and from the way you make it sound, I don't think I want to. In my defense, it was more of a joke, not to be taken as a serious plot idea.

Still you summed up way better than I did the problems the characters would have in this kind of fic. And I agree with your tier list of who is most likely to make it and how they would go about making or breaking it after the end.

I don't think the idea of a post apocalyptic Yamaku is a flawed idea, rather there has just been some bumpy implementations of it.

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