Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by brythain » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:22 am

bhtooefr wrote:Consider the good endings a baseline to compare the other endings to - the good endings are how suicidal I see each character being normally.

Except for Misha, where she may actually be more suicidal in Shizune's good ending, than in a non-Shizune route.
I think that your relatively suicidal baseline is a little unrealistic. So let's look at the worse/worst ending-scenarios.

Rin: possibly works herself to death by neglect etc; this is just playing up the artist-dying-young trope.
Emi: will not do herself in; probably will live on just to prove she can.

Lilly: ah, she's good all the way… may get sentimental at times, but she's got as good a life as it gets.
Hanako: not much difference except she's now lost her support structure and can continue growing as a person.

Shizune: she's good too… that family is tough and she's got a great future, depressed or not.
Misha: apart from a flair for drama, if this is Shizune's neutral route, she's possibly the only direct suicide risk here.

I don't think Misha is any more suicidal than any 18-year-old who made such choices but had no material outcome (unless she got pregnant). Shizune doesn't seem to know they did it, and Hisao and her will probably have awkward future encounters if they have any at all, but nah…

Generally, the best chances for a successful BEF would be with Shizune or Emi because of their drive to get on with life, then.
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Mirage_GSM » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:41 am

bhtooefr wrote:Oh, and as far as other characters even having the chance for a BEFF (healthy or unhealthy)... Shizune's, the bridge got napalmed. Lilly's, we can't build bridges that long. Emi's, she slammed that door HARD, and there's no chance for reconciliation (MAYBE a decade later she could merely tolerate Hisao if they had to encounter one another). Rin's... who knows, there (and the first bad ending, was downright abusive and creepy - doesn't mean that Hisao doesn't get a second chance, but it sure as fuck wouldn't be healthy), although I've seen a BEFF off of her "neutral" end.
Well, for sure the various bad ends of the VN are salvageable to different degrees.

I agree Shizune's is out. Sleeping around with your GF's best friend is not something you just forget.

Lilly is also busted... Though you could say that her good ending is literally* a BEFF of her bad ending^^°
*Yes, I do mean literally.

Emi... In "Guess Who's Coming" Hisao drops the ball worse than he ever did in Misstep, so depending on which way you went to get to the good end you've already salvaged a pseudo bad end. Her bad end is pretty final, though. It's even said in the text: "We don't talk again after that." It doesn't get much more definite than that.
I don't really hate Shards of Ire, even though Hisao says some fucked up and abusive things to Rin in that scene; Hisao in Rin's route is probably the most emotionally unhealthy he gets in the entire game (and you can see this pretty clearly in the manner in which he shuts himself off to everybody but Rin in that storyline.) Yes, he's almost certainly messed up everything (and almost certainly irrevocably wounded Rin,) but he's going completely nuts as well, and his actions strike me as natural given how unhealthy he behaves there.
Rin's first bad end, though... Yes, Hisao says a lot of stuff to Rin that is... not really nice, but being in a relationship with Rin, you'd have to be Buddha himself not to snap at one point. More importantly the exact same dialogue turns up later en route to her good end, so if he managed to salvage it then, why shouldn't he salvage it here. Since that story has already been written, it's probably pointless to write a BEFF about it, though.
Rin's second bad end... That one is heart-breakingly, gut-crushingly, tear-jerkingly final as well. Rin is not as far out of reach as Lilly, but she might as well be.

...

Which leaves us with Misstep.
Actually I think this is the most realistically salvageable of them all. Hanako is suffering through a bout of depression, Hisao gets on her nerves and she explodes. Hands up if your GF/BF/spouse never exploded on you (justified or otherwise). Once she calms down and works through her depressive phase she'll probably regret exploding like that.
Yes, Hisao has been clubbed with the idiot bat in this one, but up to this time he and Hanako got along well, and she considered him a friend. So IF Hisao can take a hint, apologizes for being a moron and refrains from doing stupid stuff afterwards, I don't see why Hanako wouldn't forgive him and at least go back to being friends again. Lovers would probably be less likely or take longer in this scenario, but it's not out of the question.

Now that I think of it, Misstep is a bit like a reversed Illusions for People/Shards of Ire with not Hisao but Hanako being the one to explode. Explosions like that can be very useful to clear the air and make people understand each other better. (Also: Make-Up Sex)
If Illusions for People set the scene for Hisao finally being able to understand Rin a bit in Demused, then Misstep can clue him in about Hanako.
All that said I still wouldn't write a BEFF after Misstep unless I had a story to tell that went beyond "Hisao and Hanako get back together".
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Oscar Wildecat » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:01 am

Mirage_GSM wrote: Lilly is also busted... Though you could say that her good ending is literally* a BEFF of her bad ending^^°
*Yes, I do mean literally.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that about Lilly's good ending...
Mirage_GSM wrote: All that said I still wouldn't write a BEFF after Misstep unless I had a story to tell that went beyond "Hisao and Hanako get back together".
There's the breaking point, in my opinion, between a good BEFF, and bad one. Can you read the story for it's own merits, and not just because you disliked the bad/neutral ending? (If I had to pick a personal example of a "good" story in this regard, I would choose "Direction". YMMV.)
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by bhtooefr » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:12 am

The trick is writing a Misstep BEFF that doesn't cheapen Hanako, really, or ignore the lessons that Hisao was supposed to learn.

A Hanako that runs back to Hisao is being cheapened (although, to be fair, I think it's plausible - doesn't mean it's a good story, but I think it could happen if this were real life). A Hisao that keeps pursuing Hanako isn't learning his lesson.

I think Second Beats had an interesting premise, that the shock triggered a heart attack, and also that Hanako would try to save his life in that scenario - even if she hated him, she certainly didn't want him to die at her door. However, I think the guilt alone would consume her, and then there's the lingering anger. It'd probably take her years to be able to face Hisao, or even Lilly, at that point. And, then, she knows how he's treated her... would she ever really be able to trust him again?

I'm finding myself swayed to Leaty's opinion on Misstep BEFFs specifically (although I suspect a good one COULD be written, but I'm finding less and less room to do it and it be good). Rin may be a different story (her "neutral" end really being a bad end, just not as bad as the first bad end, and Direction being a thing... I need to re-read it though), and then you've got Cut Petals, which I don't find nearly as abhorrent as Misstep.

In Misstep, Hisao explicitly ignores Hanako's requests to leave her alone, which is what makes it particularly abhorrent - I can't entirely blame him for wanting to check up on her. In Cut Petals, Hanako consents to his presence, and even asks him to stay and play a game of chess. Did Hisao screw up in Cut Petals? Absolutely, but the creepy part wasn't checking on her, it was not following her increasingly explicit requests to leave her alone until she literally lost control of herself (he should have left the first time she asked him to leave, and maybe noted that if she wanted to talk about it, she knew where to find him), and that didn't happen in Cut Petals.
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Leaty » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:55 pm

Mirage_GSM wrote:Emi... In "Guess Who's Coming" Hisao drops the ball worse than he ever did in Misstep, so depending on which way you went to get to the good end you've already salvaged a pseudo bad end. Her bad end is pretty final, though. It's even said in the text: "We don't talk again after that." It doesn't get much more definite than that.
They don't talk again for the rest of their academic careers, but I don't think that line is meant to be a prophecy for the rest of their lives, or the reflections of a now 87-year-old Hisao. I agree it's unlikely they'll cross paths again, but not impossible.
Rin's first bad end, though... Yes, Hisao says a lot of stuff to Rin that is... not really nice, but being in a relationship with Rin, you'd have to be Buddha himself not to snap at one point. More importantly the exact same dialogue turns up later en route to her good end, so if he managed to salvage it then, why shouldn't he salvage it here. Since that story has already been written, it's probably pointless to write a BEFF about it, though.
Oh, yes; Shards of Ire can almost certainly be BEFFed (though it seems out of character for Hisao, who seems resolute about having given up on her.) However, I think it ultimately has the same character progression for Rin as The World Only You Can See if Hisao doesn't come back. And Rin definitively winds up committing suicide in that (according to at least one of the devs, anyway.)
Which leaves us with Misstep.
Actually I think this is the most realistically salvageable of them all. Hanako is suffering through a bout of depression, Hisao gets on her nerves and she explodes. Hands up if your GF/BF/spouse never exploded on you (justified or otherwise). Once she calms down and works through her depressive phase she'll probably regret exploding like that.
You and I interpret Hisao completely differently there. I don't see Misstep/Cut Petals Hisao and Adulthood Hisao as being one bad decision removed from being the same person. I see the former as somebody who, from word one, has only had pity for Hanako and who liked the idea of finding meaning in his life by positioning himself as her caretaker. I mean, hell, the decision not to Misstep doesn't even really exist at that later juncture in the VN; Misstep occurs based on much earlier decisions, giving more fuel to my assertion that Hisao in that scenario is a gross, completely misguided person whom Hanako will not under any circumstances return to.
bhtooefr wrote:In Cut Petals, Hanako consents to his presence, and even asks him to stay and play a game of chess. Did Hisao screw up in Cut Petals? Absolutely, but the creepy part wasn't checking on her, it was not following her increasingly explicit requests to leave her alone until she literally lost control of herself (he should have left the first time she asked him to leave, and maybe noted that if she wanted to talk about it, she knew where to find him), and that didn't happen in Cut Petals.
I'm kind of amazed that there are people who think that Cut Petals could be a healthier ending for Hanako and Hisao than Misstep. Cut Petals implied that Hanako has resigned herself to the fact that the people will never see her as anything other than something needing to be protected and treated like a child, and is allowing Hisao to dote on her endlessly from now on, with all the emotional draining that implies. I have seen hell, and it is called Cut Petals.

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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by bhtooefr » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:07 pm

Yeah, no, I'm not saying that Cut Petals is healthy for Hanako, and actually I think, especially if she can reconcile with Lilly quickly, Misstep is healthier... and might even be healthier than Adulthood in the very long run. I'm saying that Hisao's actions are far less reprehensible in Cut Petals than in Misstep.

(And, there actually is a Cut Petals fix, One Wish by DaGarver.)
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Leaty » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:29 pm

bhtooefr wrote:(And, there actually is a Cut Petals fix, One Wish by DaGarver.)
Hmm. That one's not terrible, actually. Probably because it's not a BEFF (which I generally define as taking place before graduation.)

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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by bhtooefr » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:29 pm

Ah, then we definitely don't agree on the definition of a BEFF. I was being significantly more inclusive.
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Guest Poster » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:42 pm

And Rin definitively winds up committing suicide in that (according to at least one of the devs, anyway.)
Interesting. According to my recollection, Aura said the opposite.
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Mahorfeus » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:14 pm

Take this for what you will.

It might be a matter of semantics, but would failing to take care of herself and dying because of it really be the same thing as suicide? Because I can certainly see that happening, at least in her Bad End. In her Neutral (again, semantics) End I've always figured that she made the decision to force herself to change, even at the expense of her own happiness.
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Leaty » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:36 pm

Hmm, I could have sworn one of the devs confirmed Rin dies, but I can't remember where.

Ah well. It doesn't really matter either way. For what it's worth, I'm glad the finished product wasn't as death-heavy as it apparently was at one point in development.

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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Mirage_GSM » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:49 pm

Leaty wrote:They don't talk again for the rest of their academic careers, but I don't think that line is meant to be a prophecy for the rest of their lives, or the reflections of a now 87-year-old Hisao. I agree it's unlikely they'll cross paths again, but not impossible.
Certainly. And maybe Lilly comes back in ten years time when she's looking for a job in Japan, or Rin... In ten years or even during a lifetime ANY bad end is salvageable. I don't think that has to be mentioned specifically.
And Rin definitively winds up committing suicide in that (according to at least one of the devs, anyway.)
Well, I think Aurastated at one time that she wouldn'r and he's the only dev whose opinion matters to me when it comes to Rin.
You and I interpret Hisao completely differently there. I don't see Misstep/Cut Petals Hisao and Adulthood Hisao as being one bad decision removed from being the same person. I see the former as somebody who, from word one, has only had pity for Hanako and who liked the idea of finding meaning in his life by positioning himself as her caretaker...
And yet his actions up to this point are almost exactly the same. You even get to read his interior monologue. So I can't really see how he could have a completely different view of Hanako in one case than in the other. That's not really an option with first person narrative...
Guest Poster wrote:Interesting. According to my recollection, Aura said the opposite.
Ah, good, so I wasn't misremmebering that.
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Leaty wrote:Hmm, I could have sworn one of the devs confirmed Rin dies, but I can't remember where.
There were plenty of people who put forth the idea that Rin might suicide as a result of one of her bad endings, but as far as I recall none of them were part of 4LS.
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by bhtooefr » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:22 pm

Well, it was certainly heavy-handedly hinted at during Rin's route... and what's in the VN trumps word of author, according to word of author.
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Mahorfeus » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:49 pm

bhtooefr wrote:Well, it was certainly heavy-handedly hinted at during Rin's route... and what's in the VN trumps word of author, according to word of author.
The parallels to Sae's husband are blatant, but they are as open to interpretation as anything. Rin's doom was not set in stone. As similar as their situations may have seemed, they are ultimately two different people. Rin is after all, "unique."
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Re: Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

Post by Mirage_GSM » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:58 pm

There is nothing in the VN that says Rin is going to suicide.
They are talking about another character who did commit suicide - which could be construed as foreshadowing in a VN more heavily inclined to tropes than KS.
As it is I see no reason to doubt Aura's words since he's always given serious answers to the most inane questions in the ask thread
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Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

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