Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

A forum for general discussion of the game: Open to all punters
User avatar
Oddball
Posts: 2848
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:05 pm

Re: Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

Post by Oddball » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:29 pm

You know, if the artists had posted these in a joking manner I don't think anybody would have any problem with them. After all, we've cool with Hachisame and Hitomi. It's just that the artist the attitude and ignorance the artists is showing.
Not Dead Yet

User avatar
Steinherz
Posts: 2095
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:06 am
Location: New England

Re: Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

Post by Steinherz » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:43 pm

Oddball wrote:You know, if the artists had posted these in a joking manner I don't think anybody would have any problem with them. After all, we've cool with Hachisame and Hitomi. It's just that the artist the attitude and ignorance the artists is showing.
That "artist" just seems to be a cunt.
Plain and simple.
I write take a look, would you kindly?
I also draw, kind of.
KeiichiO wrote:You shall now, and forever be known as, "Steinherz, The Great".
Oddball wrote:It's an obvious mistake. Both are disfigured orphans that read alot and both wear green skirts.

User avatar
SpunkySix
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:03 pm
Location: Lost in thought... somewhere.

Re: Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

Post by SpunkySix » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:14 pm

Oddball wrote:You know, if the artists had posted these in a joking manner I don't think anybody would have any problem with them. After all, we've cool with Hachisame and Hitomi. It's just that the artist the attitude and ignorance the artists is showing.
Agreed. Heck, Katawako is a thing. Less "publicized", but still.
"Spunky at his Spunkyest/Spunkiest"
"Tissues to the extreme!"

Silentcook
Carelessly Cooking You
Posts: 2524
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:22 am
Location: Imola, Italy

Re: Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

Post by Silentcook » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:33 pm

Look up a thread on these forums named "Bashing a KS basher." Go ahead, it won't take long - it's only 5 pages.

Done? Good.

I don't have high expectations here either, so please think carefully about what you're going to post for once.
Shattering your dreams since '94.

Image

User avatar
AussieInquisitor
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 11:18 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

Post by AussieInquisitor » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:06 pm

SpunkySix wrote:
KeiichiO wrote:
SpunkySix wrote:First, look at this image, then its description in the link, then the comments section. People... really think this, which is what inspired this topic.
http://qt75rx1.deviantart.com/art/More- ... -387078526
This guy clearly has a lot of time on his hands.
What's funny though is that the drawings themselves aren't bad at all, and given the right context and respect, the characters could probably work, if not in KS then something similar but a bit more fantasy-like. The hunchback girl in particular looks usable in a story.
I would have to agree. While it was certainly created as one of those "put your money where your mouth is" spiteful approaches to the 'debate' (probably as about as silly as the old "would you consider HER your waifu?!' spouts that crop up now and again), the irony is, given the right concept, reasoning and justification, some of those ideas can work:
  • The two-headed girl concept could be deemed as Siamese twins or cojoined siblings - there have been real-life cases of such children being born, surviving and living out their lives - though, in our age, this usually can be surgically corrected unless the two siblings are too 'intertwined' to separate without killing them,
  • The girl in the top-right can be pretty easy to explain, as there are genetic defects that can result in someone having a hunched'over or hunchbacked appearance; these could also affect one's mobility, if it was severe enough. So, is the idea 'ugly' on its own merits? Heck, no!
  • I haven't personally met anyone who had only one eye or multiple limbs (beyond the normal pair, that is), but again ...
Probably the only sketch that stumped me was the one in the bottom-right - unlike the list I had compiled, I ... erm, I got nothing.

Anyways ...

For me, personally, regarding the original subject at hand, there's (stereotypical speaking) generally three broad types of "Internet know-it-alls":

I) Those who genuinely had no idea about the subject matter, but are either ambivient, willing to look into it or just let bygones be bygones,
II) As I), only they go off about it like it's the coming of the Antichrist (as Spunky has aptly explained in the above case) - in which case, one could just brush said person off; or
III) Those who do know what they're talking about and STILL gasbag about it like it's some great scandal - then one can think (rightly or wrongly) they're just being condescending or outright hypocritical.

Personally, its the type threes that can get under my collar the most.

EDIT:

After reading the mod's post (who had posted while I had been typing the above), I think what I'm trying to drive at is this:

Yeah, OK, if you like or don't like something, great! More power to you. But I think what gets everybody up in arms is when this starts becoming a case of stepping on another's toes or, in the cases of those who outright bash something needlessly, kicking them in the shins. Since most, if not all of us, have already gone through VN to varying degrees, we can say that KS is far more then what some have (or do) fear what it is while those who haven't and bash it, from our perspective, posits an argument that, in the end, belittle KS' true message - that, at the end of the day, whether you are what society considers to be "normal" or "abnormal", you are still you.

That being said ... "live and let live", I guess.
Last edited by AussieInquisitor on Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tha gaol agam ort, Lilly. Slàinte mhor a h-uile là a chi 's nach fhaic.

"I think I can hear SlientCook building more Sorry Corners from the remains of cooked threads to cope with the demand."
- Rhodri, 07/04/2015

User avatar
d2r
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:38 am

Re: Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

Post by d2r » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:18 pm

There is a fourth type. Which is people who troll merely for the sake of provoking a response like this thread.

Look, I know it sucks when someone takes a shit on something you enjoy. We've all been there. But, to quote an old aphorism, haters gonna hate. I simply don't see the point of giving them attention.
Comrade wrote:infinite options does not mean all options, just like that between every two numbers there are infinite numbers, but not all.

If I see that sentence anywhere I am going to send your head to your mother with a replacment order
If you like a moodier fanfic, why not try mine?

User avatar
SpunkySix
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:03 pm
Location: Lost in thought... somewhere.

Re: Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

Post by SpunkySix » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:31 pm

Silentcook wrote:Look up a thread on these forums named "Bashing a KS basher." Go ahead, it won't take long - it's only 5 pages.

Done? Good.

I don't have high expectations here either, so please think carefully about what you're going to post for once.
Oh... wow. :(


Let's not make this that then, and just focus on the issue of people making completely baseless claims about the novel's theme. Dr2 has a point, so maybe we should shift the tone from less "wow this is terrible" to more "why does this happen and what can we learn from it". Cautiously. Please. That way this doesn't turn into a clusterfuck of random troll-baited nonsense and we can have a serious, respectful conversation about it.
"Spunky at his Spunkyest/Spunkiest"
"Tissues to the extreme!"

User avatar
d2r
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:38 am

Re: Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

Post by d2r » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:36 pm

Oh, man, that thread was awful in so many ways. But the devs' snarky replies had me giggling. Especially A22's.
Comrade wrote:infinite options does not mean all options, just like that between every two numbers there are infinite numbers, but not all.

If I see that sentence anywhere I am going to send your head to your mother with a replacment order
If you like a moodier fanfic, why not try mine?

User avatar
AussieInquisitor
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 11:18 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

Post by AussieInquisitor » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:37 pm

SpunkySix wrote:
Silentcook wrote:Look up a thread on these forums named "Bashing a KS basher." Go ahead, it won't take long - it's only 5 pages.

Done? Good.

I don't have high expectations here either, so please think carefully about what you're going to post for once.
Oh... wow. :(


Let's not make this that then, and just focus on the issue off people making completely baseless claims about the novel. Dr2 has a point, so maybe we should shift the tone from less "wow this is terrible" to more "why does this happen and what can we learn from it". Cautiously. Please.
Alright, then, Spunky; you're on, mate. :D

Why does this sort of thing occur? Is it the subject matter itself, any taboos (perceived or otherwise) that are associated with VNs or disablilities in general, or probably something more then those?

As for what we can learn from any answers to such questions ... hmm, I'm not initially sure, beyond just being better informed about why some societies approach the above differently to others.
Tha gaol agam ort, Lilly. Slàinte mhor a h-uile là a chi 's nach fhaic.

"I think I can hear SlientCook building more Sorry Corners from the remains of cooked threads to cope with the demand."
- Rhodri, 07/04/2015

Hein
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:06 pm

Re: Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

Post by Hein » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:02 pm

I think if there weren't any sex scenes (even though they were quite soft, and can be disabled for that matter) I think people would be less weird about the whole thing, people think oh it's some nasty hentai that objectifies disabled people (because since they're disabled that makes people uncomfortable?). I think that KS does the EXACT opposite of that, and makes them seem just like normal teenagers who seem to get along fine with their disabilities, and wouldn't seem any different from any other high school. I think most people act like Hisao, making a big thing about it in their minds.

User avatar
SpunkySix
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:03 pm
Location: Lost in thought... somewhere.

Re: Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

Post by SpunkySix » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:26 pm

AussieInquisitor wrote:As for what we can learn from any answers to such questions ... hmm, I'm not initially sure, beyond just being better informed about why some societies approach the above differently to others.
I was also thinking that the concept of trying something that seems alien before judging it might be relevant. We see how these people look to us, now ask yourself, do you look like that to somebody else? If so, you might want to give whatever it is that you're criticizing a fair chance.
I think most people act like Hisao, making a big thing about it in their minds.
Interesting observation.
"Spunky at his Spunkyest/Spunkiest"
"Tissues to the extreme!"

User avatar
Atario
Posts: 1358
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:06 am
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

Post by Atario » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:52 pm

SpunkySix wrote:why does this happen and what can we learn from it
A stew of ignorance, prejudice, jumping to conclusions, and projection.

Subconscious: "Love and sex with the disabled? Ew, that's gross. Therefore anyone who would be ok with it must be a demented fetishist."
Conscious: "Hey, you heard about this sick game and the weirdos who like it? Disgusting, amirite? LOL"
NB: none of the above is a request

Mutou Gets Fired — a little one-shot fanfic I wrote

User avatar
Potato
Posts: 1906
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:49 pm

Re: Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

Post by Potato » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:35 am

SpunkySix wrote:why does this happen and what can we learn from it
It happens because people are ignorant. Also, given the common line of "It's a game about taking advantage of/raping cripples!", they apparently think that every possible disability in all the world renders the victim so mentally deficient as to be incapable of comprehension and/or informed consent. Because, you know. The instant Emi lost her legs, she totally forgot anything she ever knew about sex. That's how that works, right?

There's also prejudice, projection, all the usual stuff...

As for what can we learn from it...Well, that depends. If you already know that such people are wrong and not to be taken seriously, then you've learned all that can be learned from them. If anything, they ought to learn a few things from you.
I love the interpretation of Pac-Man where he's a just a lowly worker retrieving golf balls left all over the course by the rich masters and the ghosts are all previous workers who got conked on the head and killed by incoming golf balls in the line of duty.

C4H8Cl2S
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:17 am

Re: Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

Post by C4H8Cl2S » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:09 am

Sex stuff in video games already gets a very weird treatment in general, and that goes well beyond KS. Most of the mainstream news about sex in games is focused more on scare stories, like fucking and killing hookers in GTA and the whole RapeLay controversy. Love scenes in games tend to completely pass on showing the player any sexual content beyond maybe a hug or a kiss, then only implying through dialogue that anything more happens. It's very rare to see a sex scene portrayed in a respectful and loving way without digging through obscure titles. Instead, most of what a casual gamer hears and sees about sex in video games tends to focus on rape, debauchery, and the lewd and vulgar sides of sex.

So, when such a person hears about a game with sexually explicit scenes, that person's mind is already expecting the worst. Add in some of Katawa Shoujo's unique features (Has roots in 4chan! Its name means Crippled Girls!) and it's an uphill battle to convince someone that it's not just some weirdo smut game. After all, they've never seen a game that depicts sex both explicitly and as an act of love. It's completely off their radar, so they assume Katawa Shoujo uses the same crass approach they've seen time and time again, only this time, the sextoys have crutches.

I think some of it has to do with the perception of the game being a dating simulator too, which also brings a host of connotations. If the game was basically the same minus sex scenes, there would still be people expecting the worst from the game. If the plot was, say, about Hisao becoming the leader of a disability rights movement, who also happened to get the girl, I don't think there would be any controversy unless explicit sex got involved. (Egads, but that would be a horrifying story.)

User avatar
Steinherz
Posts: 2095
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:06 am
Location: New England

Re: Ignorant things said by Internet know-it-alls

Post by Steinherz » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:03 pm

C4H8Cl2S wrote:It's very rare to see a sex scene portrayed in a respectful and loving way without digging through obscure titles.
Ummm.... excuse me?
Image
Image

These two game series which depict their sex scenes in a respectful, loving manner are totally obscure and underground, right I forgot :lol: :P

However, what always SHOCKS me is that some people think that the game is fucked up for having depictions of sex WITH people who have physical disabilities. Not because of the sex, but because of the disabilities.

And that's the most damning thing about it too.
Apparently people with physical handicaps can't have romances according to these people's viewpoints.
I write take a look, would you kindly?
I also draw, kind of.
KeiichiO wrote:You shall now, and forever be known as, "Steinherz, The Great".
Oddball wrote:It's an obvious mistake. Both are disfigured orphans that read alot and both wear green skirts.

Post Reply