Random KS Discussion

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Oddball
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Oddball » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:02 pm

SpunkySix wrote:
Atario wrote:
SpunkySix wrote:Sure, but this VN's entire gameplay consists of choosing options. It comes out and tells you, "here, pick where you want to go" and then when you go there, absolutely nothing indicates that you are under any sort of obligation to look at the other options. There's a percentage and some extras not unlocked, which in video game terms means pretty much nothing.
There's no obligation to do anything. That doesn't mean I can look at three scenes and declare myself "finished".
Because reading three scenes and reading an entire route from start to finish are totally the same thing. You get the credits, the story is over. That's being finished, even if there's more you can potentially do with it afterwards.
The game is over several times before you completely finish it.

Only doing the good endings is like playing the game and calling it quits after you finish Emi and Hanako's routes. yes you "beat" the game, but you didn't even come close to finishing it all.
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Leaty
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Leaty » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:17 pm

Oddball wrote:The game is over several times before you completely finish it.

Only doing the good endings is like playing the game and calling it quits after you finish Emi and Hanako's routes. yes you "beat" the game, but you didn't even come close to finishing it all.
There are people who refuse to get the bad endings on the grounds that it's out of character for Hisao to get those endings, and it's therefore not the "true" story.

I'm not sure I agree, but those people exist.

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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Oddball » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:24 pm

I'm not sure I agree, but those people exist.
What can I say? Some people are just wrong.
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Leaty
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Leaty » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:43 pm

I don't know; the argument is almost existential in its weirdness. Like, can one person in one exact moment in time really do more than one thing? Is Hisao a character with a characterization, or is Hisao a puppet built by 4LS for our amusement? What is Hisao?

It depends on your perspective, I guess. Does Hisao act, or does he react?

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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Atario » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:47 pm

SpunkySix wrote:Because reading three scenes and reading an entire route from start to finish are totally the same thing.
Likewise, reading only the pieces one likes and reading the whole thing are totally the same thing.
Ever stop and consider that something loses value if you have to do it out of some misplaced sense of obligation?
I don't know why you keep using that word — obligation. Obligation has nothing to do with it. If someone respects the material, his actions should follow that respect. If he doesn't, he should admit he doesn't.
Leaty wrote:can one person in one exact moment in time really do more than one thing?
Is this about VNs, or determinism vs. free will? :?
Is Hisao a character with a characterization, or is Hisao a puppet built by 4LS for our amusement? What is Hisao?
Little of column A, little of column B?
NB: none of the above is a request

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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by brythain » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:10 pm

Leaty wrote:I don't know; the argument is almost existential in its weirdness. Like, can one person in one exact moment in time really do more than one thing? Is Hisao a character with a characterization, or is Hisao a puppet built by 4LS for our amusement? What is Hisao?

It depends on your perspective, I guess. Does Hisao act, or does he react?
It's like asking whether the mech you're piloting is your puppet or a distinct character.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Leaty » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:24 pm

brythain wrote:It's like asking whether the mech you're piloting is your puppet or a distinct character.
That's a bad analogy. The answer to that depends on which anime you're in.

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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by brythain » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:50 pm

Leaty wrote:
brythain wrote:It's like asking whether the mech you're piloting is your puppet or a distinct character.
That's a bad analogy. The answer to that depends on which anime you're in.
Exactly.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by SpunkySix » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:17 pm

Atario wrote:
Ever stop and consider that something loses value if you have to do it out of some misplaced sense of obligation?
I don't know why you keep using that word — obligation. Obligation has nothing to do with it. If someone respects the material, his actions should follow that respect. If he doesn't, he should admit he doesn't.
I didn't know that not 100%-ing something instantly meant that you don't respect it. Gee, I guess I had no respect for the most moving piece of fiction I've ever read and still don't, but apparently I respect the hell out of Sonic Heroes as the pinnacle of fine art. Apparently I only respect Katawa Shoujo 35% of my maximum possible respect for it so far, since that's something that can totally be quantified.

This "you have to read the whole thing or you're not a fan and you're insulting the writers and you don't respect the art" nonsense is exactly what an obligation is. X person doesn't have to do it and may not want to, but X person feels like they are supposed to. That's basically the dictionary definition of obligation.
Likewise, reading only the pieces one likes and reading the whole thing are totally the same thing.
I'm not acting like they are. That's kind of the point, is that they're different things, but neither one is necessarily wrong. Besides, "likes" is the wrong word here. I liked Emi's bad ending, (in a purely literary sense, of course) but like I said before, I didn't need to read it to prove anything. "Feels compelled to read" works better there. And yeah, in stuff with multiple stories, that's a thing, even in physical copies. Not reading every poem in a poetry collection, every path in a CYOA novel or every story in an anthology doesn't disqualify you from being a fan of it.
Last edited by SpunkySix on Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by brythain » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:31 pm

SpunkySix wrote:That's basically the dictionary definition of obligation.
I'd just like to point out that 'obligation' strongly implies a moral or legal duty to carry out some action. The word itself means a binding imposed on you.
SpunkySix wrote:Not reading every poem in a poetry collection, every path in a CYOA novel or every story in an anthology doesn't disqualify you from being a fan of it.
That's very true. But you technically would have to say you're a fan of the idea of the work and not the whole work itself, because it'd be odd to be a fan of something you've never seen. You're certainly not obligated to '100%' every game you've played, and it is clunky to say, "I'm a fan of XYZ except for the 1% that I haven't seen, I can't speak for that, but XYZ in general, yeah!" I'm not obsessive about it; it strikes me that when fans of a work start disputing if other people are fans, that's how religious schismata occur. :)
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by SpunkySix » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:41 pm

brythain wrote:
SpunkySix wrote:That's basically the dictionary definition of obligation.
I'd just like to point out that 'obligation' strongly implies a moral or legal duty to carry out some action. The word itself means a binding imposed on you.
Huh, I stand corrected. There we go then. I guess within the context 100%-ing would be a binding of sorts imposed on potential fans, but eh, semantics.
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Atario
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Atario » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:14 pm

SpunkySix wrote:I didn't know that not 100%-ing something instantly meant that you don't respect it.
I'm not even talking about 100%ing it (which I take to mean the Completion number in Extras > Library), though that's debatable. I think we've only been talking about getting all the endings, of which there are only 13 (or in some cases even just doing each route in some fashion (of which there are only 5)). It's not like it's a grand quest that requires the devotion of a man-month of effort.
Gee, I guess I had no respect for the most moving piece of fiction I've ever read and still don't, but apparently I respect the hell out of Sonic Heroes as the pinnacle of fine art. Apparently I only respect Katawa Shoujo 35% of my maximum possible respect for it so far, since that's something that can totally be quantified.
According to these:

http://www.howlongtobeat.com/game.php?id=8764
http://www.howlongtobeat.com/game.php?id=4943

The two are actually not wildly different in terms of time investment. If you 100%ed Sonic Heroes but can't be bothered to even get each KS ending, then I'd say, yeah, you respect Sonic Heroes more.

That's only given that you don't intend to complete KS, of course. If you intend to but just haven't been able to muster the emotional bravery or free time has been tight or your computer broke down or what-have-you, then obviously those are extenuating circumstances. But to simply say "nope, I got 35% of the way done, that's enough, I'm done with it for good" is to dismiss the vision of those you claim to value.
This "you have to read the whole thing or you're not a fan and you're insulting the writers and you don't respect the art" nonsense is exactly what an obligation is. X person doesn't have to do it and may not want to, but X person feels like they are supposed to. That's basically the dictionary definition of obligation.
The fault in this definition of "obligation" has already been pointed out, but I just want to say that what you have described here is more like feelings of guilt or maybe laziness. And people generally do feel those ways when they, for example, fail to finish reading a novel — unless they have come to the conclusion that the novel isn't worth finishing, which would fall squarely into not respecting the thing. And there's nothing wrong with not respecting a certain work of art. But to claim respect and then treat it that way is mighty confusing, at best.
they're different things, but neither one is necessarily wrong.
As I said, not having respect for something is not necessarily wrong. But it should at least be called what it is.
Besides, "likes" is the wrong word here. I liked Emi's bad ending, (in a purely literary sense, of course) but like I said before, I didn't need to read it to prove anything. "Feels compelled to read" works better there.
This isn't about proving anything. It's about acting consistently with one's claims.
And yeah, in stuff with multiple stories, that's a thing, even in physical copies. Not reading every poem in a poetry collection, every path in a CYOA novel or every story in an anthology doesn't disqualify you from being a fan of it.
I'd say that's exactly what it does. "Fan" is short for "fanatic". How can anyone claim to be a fanatic about something when he can't even be arsed to do the bare minimum and read the thing?
NB: none of the above is a request

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Oddball
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Oddball » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:23 pm

I'm just don't get why a person who's made almost 2 thousand posts on a forum about something in six months wouldn't want to actually finish it.
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Potato » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:41 pm

Leaty wrote:
Oddball wrote:The game is over several times before you completely finish it.

Only doing the good endings is like playing the game and calling it quits after you finish Emi and Hanako's routes. yes you "beat" the game, but you didn't even come close to finishing it all.
There are people who refuse to get the bad endings on the grounds that it's out of character for Hisao to get those endings, and it's therefore not the "true" story.

I'm not sure I agree, but those people exist.
Have any of those people ever read fanfiction or alternate interpretations of anything? If so, their entire line of reasoning is invalidated. :lol:

Plus, it's totally in-character for Hisao. His character varies by route and choice to insure this.
I love the interpretation of Pac-Man where he's a just a lowly worker retrieving golf balls left all over the course by the rich masters and the ghosts are all previous workers who got conked on the head and killed by incoming golf balls in the line of duty.

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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Leaty » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:44 pm

Potato wrote:Have any of those people ever read fanfiction or alternate interpretations of anything?
One of them is my ex, and no, he does not read fanfiction. He doesn't even like branched visual novels, preferring linear stuff like Planetarian, Ef, Kanon, etc.

I don't agree with the idea that Hisao is out of character in the bad endings, but I won't say that it's not a compelling idea, either. As soon as you step into one of the bad endings, Hisao really does seem to act a little weird.

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