Random KS Discussion

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brythain
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by brythain » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:11 am

Oddball wrote:To me, it sounds like you're still putting them up on a pedestal. They're every bit as flawed as Hisao, if not more so. It's just that the bad endings embraces the flaws of the characters and highlight them. Rather than just leaving you the endings where everything falls into place and works out you get to see what happens when they both mess up too badly. Maybe it's not canon to you, but that just means that they didn't do such-and-such, not that they wouldn't behave that way in certain circumstances.
This is a good point. It's not the player doing this to them; your agency is limited. In fact, you can even see some 'bad' and some BAD endings coming along even if Hisao weren't there, and perhaps especially if he's not.
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by SpunkySix » Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:35 am

brythain wrote:
Oddball wrote:To me, it sounds like you're still putting them up on a pedestal. They're every bit as flawed as Hisao, if not more so. It's just that the bad endings embraces the flaws of the characters and highlight them. Rather than just leaving you the endings where everything falls into place and works out you get to see what happens when they both mess up too badly. Maybe it's not canon to you, but that just means that they didn't do such-and-such, not that they wouldn't behave that way in certain circumstances.
This is a good point. It's not the player doing this to them; your agency is limited. In fact, you can even see some 'bad' and some BAD endings coming along even if Hisao weren't there, and perhaps especially if he's not.
Thing is though, your decisions are, in this case, directly responsible for which ending happens, and that is up to Hisao exclusively in-story as the PC. If this is real life then it'd be different, but here, Hisao's decisions are mechanically the only thing separating the endings, so you personally have to intentionally make the wrong choice to see the bad endings. You, as the player, have direct control over that. Choice A leads to happy end. Choice B leads to bad end. In that respect, it's highly unrealistic, but that's how it works.

Also, asking Rin to explain herself after repeatedly telling him how hard that is for her is being an ass. Cheating on Shizune is being an ass. White knighting all over Hanako is being an ass. Refusing to give Emi any space whatsoever after clear signs that that is a terrible idea is being an ass. It's not totally Hisao's fault even in-story by any means, (most of the time; with Shizune, he's just being downright awful) and some of his mistakes are even understandable to a decent extent, but the ones leading to a bad ending are usually the result of some incredibly thick-headed behavior on his part.

Rin, for example. Obviously she has a lot of issues, and communication is one of them, so it's a big part her fault that the distance between them exists. Asking her to do exactly what she has said is incredibly difficult for her right after she tells you how difficult it is for her though is beyond stupid, bordering on mean. In once case, the flaw is part of her and she's not doing anything wrong by choice. She's doing her best to try to fix it. In the other case, the flaw is that Hisao either wasn't listening or didn't care about how she feels and basically wants her to talk right or shut up. Those aren't on the same level as problems.
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Atario » Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:02 pm

For me, it's as simple as this: you read all the endings because they're part of the game. How can you say you've "finished" a game where you skipped certain levels? Or a novel where you skipped certain chapters? You might have gotten to the end, but you didn't complete them.
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by SpunkySix » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:27 pm

Atario wrote:For me, it's as simple as this: you read all the endings because they're part of the game. How can you say you've "finished" a game where you skipped certain levels? Or a novel where you skipped certain chapters? You might have gotten to the end, but you didn't complete them.
That's different, but I'd say it's true. The question then here is whether or not completing a game for the sake of completion holds value, and I have mixed feelings about that.
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Potato » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:30 pm

SpunkySix wrote:Thing is though, your decisions are, in this case, directly responsible for which ending happens
Hardly. At most, you're indirectly responsible. If in Hanako's route, you choose the option leading to the bad end, that's not what makes it happen. It's what Hisao does (out of your control) after that choice, and her irrationally paranoid reaction, that makes it end badly.

My point being, it's all the writer's fault. Buncha jerks. :x

Trying to help a depressive recluse is not being an ass, it's being a worried friend. Trying to actually have a relationship with your partner that's more than boning in a sports shed is not being an ass, it's being a partner. Expecting an explanation for someone's shitty distant self-destructive behavior is not being an ass, it's being a concerned human being. Hanako and Emi are entirely at fault for their own bad endings. And Rin is about equal as far as blame goes. She could sit there going "I CAN'T EXPLAIN!" until time itself stopped but god forbid she try.

Completing a game for the sake of completion holds no inherent value, though one may find value late in a game if they stick with it long enough. Plus, if the story is good, that provides the value so in this case, there is value in completion.

But not completing a game because, to be blunt, you're too much of a pussy to take a sad ending...Well, then you're getting into negative value. :lol:
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by bhtooefr » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:44 pm

Potato wrote:Hanako and Emi are entirely at fault for their own bad endings.
Emi I'll grant, and I'm not gonna say that Hanako was innocent (far from it), but trying to say that Hisao is blameless in Misstep is rather disingenuous... Especially when you mention it being his fault earlier in the same post.
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Guest Poster » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:48 pm

The question then here is whether or not completing a game for the sake of completion holds value, and I have mixed feelings about that.
If I'm not able to 100% a game because I failed to collect a few überrare items with a drop rate of 1/256 or failed to get all 200 hidden treasure-fragments spread out throughout all 250 square miles of the game world, then that's usually no skin off my back and getting that magical 100-number above my savegame isn't worth spending 15 more hours on. I have better things to do with my life.

If it takes as little effort as clicking one or two particular options and the "rewards" are scenes that give you new insight into the characters (if not particularly flattering insight), then I'd definitely say there's value there.
Emi I'll grant, and I'm not gonna say that Hanako was innocent (far from it), but trying to say that Hisao is blameless in Misstep is rather disingenuous... Especially when you mention it being his fault earlier in the same post.
Both Hisao and the girls are at fault for their bad endings and the blame is spread pretty evenly. Even Word of God says so.
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by SpunkySix » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:52 pm

Potato wrote:
SpunkySix wrote:Thing is though, your decisions are, in this case, directly responsible for which ending happens
Hardly. At most, you're indirectly responsible. If in Hanako's route, you choose the option leading to the bad end, that's not what makes it happen. It's what Hisao does (out of your control) after that choice, and her irrationally paranoid reaction, that makes it end badly.

My point being, it's all the writer's fault. Buncha jerks. :x

Trying to help a depressive recluse is not being an ass, it's being a worried friend. Trying to actually have a relationship with your partner that's more than boning in a sports shed is not being an ass, it's being a partner. Expecting an explanation for someone's shitty distant self-destructive behavior is not being an ass, it's being a concerned human being. Hanako and Emi are entirely at fault for their own bad endings. And Rin is about equal as far as blame goes. She could sit there going "I CAN'T EXPLAIN!" until time itself stopped but god forbid she try.

Completing a game for the sake of completion holds no inherent value, though one may find value late in a game if they stick with it long enough. Plus, if the story is good, that provides the value so in this case, there is value in completion.

But not completing a game because, to be blunt, you're too much of a pussy to take a sad ending...Well, then you're getting into negative value. :lol:
1. In-story you are indirectly responsible, but KS is partially a game, and knowingly selecting the lose option means that getting the bad ending is a direct consequence of that.

2. Context matters. Yes, those things sound fine when they're put like that, but Hisao gets bombarded with hints against reacting like that to the point where he'd have to be basically not paying attention or ignoring them on purpose to screw up the ways he does. He gets like, three point blank talks about giving Emi space and finding out more indirectly. Rin's ENTIRE ROUTE is about how explaining things with words is ridiculously hard for her. Hanako's bad end is more understandable, but even then he's given hints that she doesn't want to be doted on.

3. Rin does try to explain herself, constantly. She visibly struggles with it pretty much all the time. That's why Hisao asking her to is painfully redundant and downright insulting.

4. You're right, value can be found in an experience if you let yourself find it. That is true.

5. Refer to 1. It's not being a pussy, it's, again, not wanting to screw up and lose on purpose. Which, regardless of what comes after that, is understandable, I'd say. We're hardwired by games and basically everything else in life to not do that.
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by poopooface » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:59 pm

Even Word of God says so.
I'm not religious so I'm free to say I don't agree.
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Potato » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:03 pm

SpunkySix wrote:it's, again, not wanting to screw up and lose on purpose.
No it isn't. I've seen plenty of people refuse to do bad ends and every one had some reasoning that amounted to "I DON'T WANT TO BE SAD!". Not one said anything about not wanting to "lose". :lol:
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by poopooface » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:05 pm

SpunkySix wrote:
5. Refer to 1. It's not being a pussy, it's, again, not wanting to screw up and lose on purpose. Which, regardless of what comes after that, is understandable, I'd say. We're hardwired by games and basically everything else in life to not do that.
Somebody finally gets it. Why the fuck would I purposefuly fail to "complete"? I got KS for certain experiences that I wanted. Plus, before I even got KS I stumbled upon a video of Hanako 's bad end so it's not like I'm even experiencing something new!
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by poopooface » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:08 pm

Potato wrote:
SpunkySix wrote:it's, again, not wanting to screw up and lose on purpose.
No it isn't. I've seen plenty of people refuse to do bad ends and every one had some reasoning that amounted to "I DON'T WANT TO BE SAD!". Not one said anything about not wanting to "lose". :lol:
I was sad at Hanako's good end so no way is my reasoning that. I've already seen a video of her bad end before I got the game and that was one of the reasons I got KS in the first place. Also, my reason is "why lose?". I'll do all the other bad ends, fine, but I've already seen her's!
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Silentcook » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:11 pm

Potato wrote:My point being, it's all the writer's fault. Buncha jerks. :x
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Potato » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:16 pm

Silentcook wrote:
Potato wrote:My point being, it's all the writer's fault. Buncha jerks. :x
Our work here is done. >:3
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bhtooefr wrote:trying to say that Hisao is blameless in Misstep is rather disingenuous... Especially when you mention it being his fault earlier in the same post.
Gee, it sure is a good thing I never said he was blameless in that then, isn't it? :P

@poo: So...You saw a video of her good end and this somehow granted you a vision of her bad end? This is getting into some weird territory... :lol:
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Re: Random KS Discussion

Post by Guest Poster » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:36 pm

poopooface wrote:
Even Word of God says so.
I'm not religious so I'm free to say I don't agree.
lol
Not familiar with TV Tropes are you? Enjoy the rest of your day.
Somebody finally gets it. Why the fuck would I purposefuly fail to "complete"? I got KS for certain experiences that I wanted. Plus, before I even got KS I stumbled upon a video of Hanako 's bad end so it's not like I'm even experiencing something new!
Because "failing" is not just your health points reaching 0 and your character falling to the floor with a big "game over" on the screen. It's viewing scenes that are part of the game. Scenes the devs put time and effort into. Heck, the ultimate bad end in this game also contains some of the most memorable quotes in the entire script. Playing through a bad end, especially when you already know how to get to the good end, isn't "losing" or "failing". It's wanting to see scenes the devs wrote that you didn't get to see yet.
We're hardwired by games and basically everything else in life to not do that.
I'm sorry, but that's just an excuse. Losing on purpose isn't really losing. Some games, especially in the 80's and 90's had truckloads of amusing deaths and any serious player would usually spend some time trying to find out what happened if you tried to screw that hooker without protection (your balls would start glowing and then explode), tried to drink from a pool of acid (the game creators would make an appearance, activate the "how-you-blew-it-cam" and yes, that's what it was called and show you what an idiot you were) or tried to throw a dagger at an enchanted tree. (the dagger bounced off and into the fourth wall where it broke your computer screen and caused death by monitor failure) Like I said, they're additional experiences you never see when you never stray from the main path.

The truth is, unfortunately, like Potato said. People who can't bear to watch the bad endings do so because they consider themselves too sensitive to see their waifu sad or mad. That sounds more disrespectful than I meant it to, but unfortunately every other reason is always just window dressing.
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