Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

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LordDarknus
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Re: Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

Post by LordDarknus » Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:06 am

I guess the concept of KS begs people to have some great expectation for "Drama-Trauma®" and "Touchy-Feely Stuff™", but if a particular route happens to lack either of it, and the author does it intentionally (perhaps to tear down the allegorical cave or build something out of the genre ghetto), the "fans" will go all like "Worst. Episode. Ever." -- So hopelessly inured, so dependent on the feels, that they think the creator(s) owe them something.

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Re: Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

Post by SpunkySix » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:12 am

LordDarknus wrote:I guess the concept of KS begs people to have some great expectation for "Drama-Trauma®" and "Touchy-Feely Stuff™", but if a particular route happens to lack either of it, and the author does it intentionally (perhaps to tear down the allegorical cave or build something out of the genre ghetto), the "fans" will go all like "Worst. Episode. Ever." -- So hopelessly inured, so dependent on the feels, that they think the creator(s) owe them something.
Or they just came for what was clearly the premise and were let down when what they saw wasn't what they were hoping for. It's one thing to experiment with a genre or conventions, but you can't always expect people to like it when it ends up being totally different than the reason they were attracted to the work in the first place. It'd be like if a fourth Nolan Batman came out and all of a sudden it was a light-hearted rom-com that explored the relationship between Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle. It could be the highest quality movie ever and a super clever spin on the series, but if it's totally outside of what people drawn to the Nolan movies could reasonably expect going into it, then not everybody has to be happy about it. That isn't being entitled, it's having subjective tastes. Unless of course somebody specifically calls the author out as being objectively bad, but those are two very different things.

I mean, what about a VN about looking past disabilities and finding true love doesn't sound like it would attract people who want to be moved to emotion? Let's turn that around... why would the people attracted to this particular VN all be expected to know ahead of time that one of the routes was specifically going to be a character study based on the premise, and if they couldn't, then why should they all have to be pleased by it?
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Re: Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

Post by Atario » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:35 am

ProfAllister wrote:My family's spaghetti sauce recipe calls for garlic and crushed red pepper. theoretically, there's an ideal combination that would please everyone, but cooks don't go for that - they choose the combination of spiciness and garlicy-ness that most appeals to their sensibilities (or, depending on the context, their intended audience).
This is one large advantage a VN has over many other art forms, though. Make the routes different and there will be something for everyone to love. And in time, some may even discover they come to love some of those routes they didn't at first. In this way, it can teach new kinds of appreciation. I know KS did this for me.
You aren't telling someone they're wrong for liking what they like; you're telling them that there's so much out there that, on an objective measure, is better than what they like.
But there are very few truly objective measures of superiority, especially in art. And even if you had an unassailable one, you can't very well expect people to simply start at the top of the leaderboard and work their way down, for many reasons. Not the least of which is that objective though they may be, all measures are still weighted differently by each individual, and can even change within one individual from day to day. Fancy Brand Tires may be inarguably better at handling mountain curves with aplomb, but that doesn't mean much to me if all I want is to commute to work without breaking the bank.
they aren't wrong for liking what they like, but they absolutely CAN be wrong for saying what they like is better than things they don't like.
This, I can agree with. "I like this better than that" is one kind of statement, and isn't questionable. "This is better than that" is quite another and definitely is.

But do remember that that blade cuts both ways.
Potato wrote:So Emi's the ideal route. Being in the center, it stands to reason that her route contains a balance of both ends.
Golden Mean Fallacy, mah man.
LordDarknus wrote:the "fans" will go all like "Worst. Episode. Ever." -- So hopelessly inured, so dependent on the feels, that they think the creator(s) owe them something.
You say that like there aren't tons of people going around saying Lilly's the worst because Mary Sue + Boring or else She's A Bitch + Feels Junkies. It's just as obnoxious.
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Re: Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

Post by Potato » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:06 pm

Atario wrote:Golden Mean Fallacy, mah man.
Doesn't really apply...
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Re: Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

Post by Ritter Delorges » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:37 pm

SpunkySix wrote: Or they just came for what was clearly the premise and were let down when what they saw wasn't what they were hoping for. It's one thing to experiment with a genre or conventions, but you can't always expect people to like it when it ends up being totally different than the reason they were attracted to the work in the first place.
[...]
I mean, what about a VN about looking past disabilities and finding true love doesn't sound like it would attract people who want to be moved to emotion??
It may be because of my almost nonexistent experience with VNs, but what were we really promised? I know that I didn't approach it with expectations like that, but that may have been because I was missing context.

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Re: Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

Post by SpunkySix » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:22 pm

Ritter Delorges wrote:
SpunkySix wrote: Or they just came for what was clearly the premise and were let down when what they saw wasn't what they were hoping for. It's one thing to experiment with a genre or conventions, but you can't always expect people to like it when it ends up being totally different than the reason they were attracted to the work in the first place.
[...]
I mean, what about a VN about looking past disabilities and finding true love doesn't sound like it would attract people who want to be moved to emotion??
It may be because of my almost nonexistent experience with VNs, but what were we really promised? I know that I didn't approach it with expectations like that, but that may have been because I was missing context.
We weren't promised anything. That's what I'm saying. Most people come across this and all they know about it is that it's an eroge VN about romancing cute disabled anime girls. With only that knowledge, what seems like more of a realistic expectation?

-This is going to be an emotional story that evokes a variety of feelings with some thought provoking elements possibly sprinkled in

or

-This is going to be a deeply intellectual character study that puts emotion on the side in order to challenge the reader

The first expectation, 9 times out of 10, is going to be right. Heck, even within KS, the first expectation has more routes that match it than the second. Shizune's route is a rare case for this genre because most authors don't set out to do what the author of her route did.
Last edited by SpunkySix on Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

Post by Aura » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:23 pm

A lot of people came to KS with the morbid voyeuristic attitude to see what kind of fucked up shit "4chan" had cooked up with the crippled girls eroge premise. I don't see an awful many people whine that KS doesn't have stump pegging.

Neither is KS really about looking past disabilities (there are zero characters with actual heavy misgivings about disabilities, the entire issue is mostly sidestepped). KS is about romance and love sure, but true love feels like a destiny or perfection thing, something where people can't imagine living without their loved one. All the KS relationships are just teenagers falling for each other and dating a few months, which might or might not fit your idea of true love. Either way we certainly didn't advertise having any of that, or feels. It's the opposite: we were totally caught off guard by the emotional effect KS had on the audience and by people who claim that KS is an aesop (but those people have no idea what an aesop means)
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Re: Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

Post by SpunkySix » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:27 pm

Aura wrote:A lot of people came to KS with the morbid voyeuristic attitude to see what kind of fucked up shit "4chan" had cooked up with the crippled girls eroge premise. I don't see an awful many people whine that KS doesn't have stump pegging.

Neither is KS really about looking past disabilities (there are zero characters with actual heavy misgivings about disabilities). KS is about romance and love sure, but true love feels like a destiny or perfection thing, something where people can't imagine living without their loved one. All the KS relationships are just teenagers falling for each other and dating a few months, which might or might not fit your idea of true love. Either way we certainly didn't advertise having any of that, or feels. It's the opposite: we were totally caught off guard by the emotional effect KS had on the audience and by people who claim that KS is an aesop (but those people have no idea what an aesop means)
You may not have advertised it that way or intended it, but when so many people react that way to it, word of mouth happens and then people come to expect it. That's what I've seen personally, anyway. Maybe I've just gotten unlucky and witnessed a minority event take place.

As for the stump pegging thing, they don't whine about that because to them, what they actually got was more pleasing. That's still a subjective reaction.
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Re: Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

Post by Munchenhausen » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:36 pm

Aura wrote:A lot of people came to KS with the morbid voyeuristic attitude to see what kind of fucked up shit "4chan" had cooked up with the crippled girls eroge premise.
Hate to say, this is what caught my attention.

came for the promise of amputee buttsecks
stayed for the feels
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Re: Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

Post by d2r » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:39 pm

Aura wrote: All the KS relationships are just teenagers falling for each other and dating a few months, which might or might not fit your idea of true love.
I felt like that was actually part of what appealed to me, in retrospect; the lack of histrionics about "true love".
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Re: Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

Post by Potato » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:46 pm

SpunkySix wrote:With only that knowledge, what seems like more of a realistic expectation?
Actually, neither of those expectations seems at all realistic given just the basic premise and the "It came from 4chan" tidbit that generally comes with knowing of the game. XD

I came out of curiosity. Not even morbid, just "How the hell is this gonna work?" :lol:
I love the interpretation of Pac-Man where he's a just a lowly worker retrieving golf balls left all over the course by the rich masters and the ghosts are all previous workers who got conked on the head and killed by incoming golf balls in the line of duty.

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Re: Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

Post by Potato » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:47 pm

d2r wrote:
Aura wrote: All the KS relationships are just teenagers falling for each other and dating a few months, which might or might not fit your idea of true love.
I felt like that was actually part of what appealed to me, in retrospect; the lack of histrionics about "true love".
True love is being able to love somebody without all the histrionic bullshit.
I love the interpretation of Pac-Man where he's a just a lowly worker retrieving golf balls left all over the course by the rich masters and the ghosts are all previous workers who got conked on the head and killed by incoming golf balls in the line of duty.

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Re: Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

Post by ksfan1989 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:50 pm

Aura wrote:A lot of people came to KS with the morbid voyeuristic attitude to see what kind of fucked up shit "4chan" had cooked up with the crippled girls eroge premise. I don't see an awful many people whine that KS doesn't have stump pegging.

Neither is KS really about looking past disabilities (there are zero characters with actual heavy misgivings about disabilities, the entire issue is mostly sidestepped). KS is about romance and love sure, but true love feels like a destiny or perfection thing, something where people can't imagine living without their loved one. All the KS relationships are just teenagers falling for each other and dating a few months, which might or might not fit your idea of true love. Either way we certainly didn't advertise having any of that, or feels. It's the opposite: we were totally caught off guard by the emotional effect KS had on the audience and by people who claim that KS is an aesop (but those people have no idea what an aesop means)
Aesop is dead.

I get that KS wasn't really written to be some kind of fable about the hidden power of cripples, but I'd argue that's part of what made it effective. The characters all have disabilities and they're all shown to cope with their disabilities, but they're not defined by their disabilities. For the most part they're treated as regular people who have some uncommon challenges, and that they will generally just figure out how to cope on their own. Y'know, kind of how real people do it. The tacit acceptance challenges the reader to evaluate their own perspective on what living with a disability is like and how people with disabilities should be treated.

Without going to far down the critical theory rabbit hole, I'd suggest that it doesn't have to be explicitly acknowledged in the piece to be considered a theme. You may not have intended it, but it's there all the same.

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Re: Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

Post by SpunkySix » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:58 pm

Potato wrote:
SpunkySix wrote:With only that knowledge, what seems like more of a realistic expectation?
Actually, neither of those expectations seems at all realistic given just the basic premise and the "It came from 4chan" tidbit that generally comes with knowing of the game. XD

I came out of curiosity. Not even morbid, just "How the hell is this gonna work?" :lol:
I could see that. To be clear, I'm not arguing that throwing a hissy fit because something didn't match your expectations is okay- it definitely isn't, and the authors have every right to be pissed off by that. I'm just saying that subjectively not enjoying it due to being unexpected in a way that isn't liked is okay, and doesn't suddenly indicate the inability to think on a deeper level.
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Re: Liking Shizune but not enjoying her route?

Post by Megumeru » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:31 pm

Potato wrote:
Megumeru wrote:That's why we have Emi who appeals right in the center of the spectrum.
So Emi's the ideal route. Being in the center, it stands to reason that her route contains a balance of both ends.
Not exactly.

It appeals to both end of the spectrum, but to some it might be 'lacking' in feels, or 'lacking' in engagement.


'Ideal' itself is a concept that is dependant on the personal interpretation of an individual. Personally myself, I find an 'ideal' story to be one of those that makes the readers think, ponder, and wonder about certain decisions; something that challenges and feed the mind with thoughts, but that's just me (which is why Shizune's route appealed to me so much, with Rin coming close).

Similarly, there are those who prefer the no-brainer instant-feel gratification. It's all on 'taste', I guess? Emi's route is in the middle-ground; it's like cooking, to put it in an analogy. Some likes it sweet, other spicy, and others somewhere in between.
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