Shizune's Mum

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Trogdor
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Re: Shizune's Mum

Post by Trogdor » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:32 pm

Guise... GUISE! You're screwing it all up!

Jigoro is Shizune and Hideaki's mother. Mrs. Cartman is their father.
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Re: Shizune's Mum

Post by Potato » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:26 pm

someguy1294 wrote:[madness]
Not that bad...If anything, the slander against Lilly is grounds for execution.


But seriously: I still run with the idea that she either died or bailed on the family, directly resulting in Jigoro losing his shit. Because he can't just be that way.
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Re: Shizune's Mum

Post by brythain » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:16 pm

Guest Poster wrote:I don't have an extremely high opinion of Jigoro, but I think even he wouldn't be nasty enough to deny his own children a chance to see a mom who seems, at the moment Lilly and Akira are asked to come over, to be either terminal or close to it. (not to mention that Shizune is an adult already and Jigoro can't really do much to prevent her from going to see her mom. He could simply forbid her to, but seeing how bad their relationship is, his opinion wouldn't factor into Shizune's decision very much)

In fact, taking the Japanese family structure in mind it'd be very likely after a divorce that Mayoi would move back in with her own parents. (to look after them) There wouldn't be much incentive for her to follow her brother to Scotland instead.
We don't know that Mayoi's parents are anywhere around. If her brother was the extant patriarch of the clan, that would be incentive enough. And the brother might even forbid Shizune and Hideaki from coming over—and it would stick.
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Re: Shizune's Mum

Post by bhtooefr » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:50 pm

Akira (in Context) wrote:Either I stayed with her, or she went to live with an ailing grandmother and grandfather.
Something tells me it ain't Mrs. Satou's parents that are ailing in Japan, given that she's Scottish. So then it's Hiroyuki Satou's, and by extension, Mayoi Hakamichi's parents.
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Re: Shizune's Mum

Post by Numb » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:53 pm

Alright, so assuming the "sick aunt" theory is right here, let's list all the strong points and the flaws with it.

Strong points
  • Isn't present during Shizune's route.
    Is the blood tie to the Satou family.
    Is therefore Lilly and Akira's aunt.
    Could've been brought to Scotland by Hiroyuki for the free healthcare in the early stages of illness.
    Shizune doesn't mention her because she doesn't want people knowing she has a sick mother and generally doesn't like thinking about it.
    Jigoro doesn't talk about it because he resents Hiroyuki's decision.
    Not mentioned to be Shizune's mother by Lilly or Akira because they assume you don't care and don't want to bother you with pointless details.
Flaws
  • Hiroyuki denying Shizune and Hideaki the chance to see her when terminal, as the hatred lies between him and Jigoro, not the children.
    Lilly and Akira being summoned instead, despite barely knowing her.
    The family is wealthy, why not pay for the healthcare?
    Doesn't explain marital status of Mayoi and Jigoro. Divorced? Together? Love or not?
    Lack of mention at all from any character, or questioning from Hisao, makes it hard to determine whether she is even alive.
I personally love this sick aunt theory, makes quite a lot of sense - I spent more time working on the flaws section than the strong points - and also creates further development of the hatred between Jigoro and Hiroyuki. Keep developing folks, this is getting strong :lol:
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Re: Shizune's Mum

Post by brythain » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:55 pm

bhtooefr wrote:
Akira (in Context) wrote:Either I stayed with her, or she went to live with an ailing grandmother and grandfather.
Something tells me it ain't Mrs. Satou's parents that are ailing in Japan, given that she's Scottish. So then it's Hiroyuki Satou's, and by extension, Mayoi Hakamichi's parents.
On re-read, you have a point. The odd thing was that I assumed those grandparents were in Scotland because of the Akira-in-Japan vs grandparents-elsewhere fallacy.

Possibilities:

1. Akira doesn't look after grandparents because Mayoi looks after them.
2. Grandparents have passed on since Lilly's move to Yamaku. Mayoi-Jigoro split more recent than that.
3. Grandparents indeed Mrs Satou's parents. In Scotland. Because Mrs Satou running around with Mr Satou elsewhere.

And so on.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
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someguy1294
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Re: Shizune's Mum

Post by someguy1294 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:01 am

Potato wrote:
someguy1294 wrote:[madness]
Madness?

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Re: Shizune's Mum

Post by Liminaut » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:12 am

Potato wrote: But seriously: I still run with the idea that she either died or bailed on the family, directly resulting in Jigoro losing his shit. Because he can't just be that way.
I'm agreeing with you. For Mayoi never to get mentioned once in the whole VN is pretty weird, considering how family-oriented Lilly's and Shizune's paths are. Either death or a truly brutal bail is about all I can think of to have her cut like that.

Could Mayoi be the sick aunt? Lilly has sick, aging grandparents, which are going to be Mayoi's parents. Bailing on one's parents to move to Scotland is pretty bad. But it would be bad enough that I think Lilly's parents would also cut her. Perhaps Lilly's father gave her shelter just to spite Jigoro. Regardless, Mayoi being the sick aunt demands that the Hakamichi branch loathes her so much the don't mention her, but the Satou branch is on very good terms with her. That takes threading a very fine needle, or some epically bizarre family dynamics.

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Re: Shizune's Mum

Post by brythain » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:37 am

Liminaut wrote:Could Mayoi be the sick aunt? Lilly has sick, aging grandparents, which are going to be Mayoi's parents. Bailing on one's parents to move to Scotland is pretty bad. But it would be bad enough that I think Lilly's parents would also cut her. Perhaps Lilly's father gave her shelter just to spite Jigoro. Regardless, Mayoi being the sick aunt demands that the Hakamichi branch loathes her so much the don't mention her, but the Satou branch is on very good terms with her. That takes threading a very fine needle, or some epically bizarre family dynamics.
One possibility: Mayoi divorced Jigoro and gave up custodial rights to the children. If she had good cause, she's still a Satou and the Hakamichis would see it as a slight. The children may have been brought up with an absent mother who was never to be mentioned. However, Akira is seen as an acceptable companion for Hideaki, the whole gang of kids don't mind going on a fishing trip together, and Lilly was close to Shizune before the Student Council fiasco. That means the actual causes might have been kept at the 'adult' level and the children were never told—so the parental dynamics don't influence the next generation.

Which brings us back to that sick aunt. What if Lilly and Akira know the sick aunt is Shizune and Hideaki's mother, but Shizune and Hideaki think she's dead? Hur hur hur...
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
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Re: Shizune's Mum

Post by Guest Poster » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:20 am

About the strong points and flaws posted by Numb:
Not mentioned to be Shizune's mother by Lilly or Akira because they assume you don't care and don't want to bother you with pointless details.
Shizune is consistently portrayed as a friend to Hisao even in the routes that aren't her own. Lilly assuming that Hisao wouldn't be interested in the fact that the mother of one of his friends and classmates was severely ill doesn't make any sense at all.

There's another flaw that wasn't mentioned in the list: Lilly mentions she has barely ever met this aunt and doesn't even remember the sound of her voice. Lilly mentions that she and Shizune go way back, much further back than the moment her parents left 6 years ago. Akira says that she considered telling her parents to just let Lilly live with the Hakamichi's anyway, meaning that she and Lilly were already familiar with Shizune's family despite the antipathy between Jigoro and Lilly's dad. Yet despite this familiarity, Lilly only met Shizune's mom a handful of times in her entire life? According to the theory that means that Mayoi must have already been pretty much completely absent during the 12 years of Lilly's life her parents still lived in Japan. Was she already in Scotland back then despite Lilly's father probably not even knowing yet that he'd be forced to move to Inverness at some point? If so, then what was she doing there? And if not, why did she suddenly decide to accompany a brother with whose family she hardly ever had any contact?


About Lilly's grandparents:
1. Akira doesn't look after grandparents because Mayoi looks after them.
The task of looking after the grandparents was most likely originally attributed to Lilly's mother. After she followed her husband to Scotland it's possible either Mayoi now spends a lot of time looking after them or Lilly's dad hired some private nurses/servants to do that instead. Though the former isn't extremely likely since Mayoi became part of the Hakamichi family after marrying and isn't officially a Satou anymore.
2. Grandparents have passed on since Lilly's move to Yamaku. Mayoi-Jigoro split more recent than that.
Nope, I'm pretty sure they're both still alive. That's because Lilly hasn't met with her parents ever since they left and if the grandparents died somewhere between 6 years ago and now, Lilly's parents would almost certainly have dropped by in Japan to attend the funeral and Lilly would have attended it as well.
3. Grandparents indeed Mrs Satou's parents. In Scotland. Because Mrs Satou running around with Mr Satou elsewhere.
That's not very plausible because it was decided that Lilly had to stay in Japan to finish her education, so either Akira or grandparents in Japan were meant to look after her.
Last edited by Guest Poster on Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shizune's Mum

Post by Mirage_GSM » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:04 am

hi "So you stayed in Japan with Lilly, then?"

aki "Either I stayed with her, or she went to live with an ailing grandmother and grandfather."
So, yes, Lilly's grandparents live in Japan. It wouldn't make sense for Lilly to follow her parents to Scotland just to live with her ailing grandparents there.

Meanwhile, since this was even an option I don't think her grandparents were ailing that badly, or nobody would have considered putting them in the care of a blind twelve year old.

Of course their conditions could have worsened in the meantime, but there's absolutely nothing to support this in the story, so I'll discount the theory that Mayoi is looking after them on account of Occam's razor.

Guest Poster already pointed out why Mayoi being the sick aunt doesn't make any sense at all. For that to be true, at least half a dozen characters would have to have acted very out of character or illogical.

So there are really only two possibilities: Mayoi is either dead or divorced from Jigoro. I think the first is a bit more likely, but I'd have to reread Shizune's route to refresh my memories of the details in Jigoro's conversations.
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Re: Shizune's Mum

Post by Guest Poster » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:43 am

Meanwhile, since this was even an option I don't think her grandparents were ailing that badly, or nobody would have considered putting them in the care of a blind twelve year old.
Yeah, they're probably still around, but Akira worried that even then they'd be too focussed on their own health and would end up neglecting Lilly. I don't think Lilly was ever meant to look after them. Chances are Lilly wasn't even very independent back then. (most 12 years olds aren't very independent yet)
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