First impression of the girls vs final impressions?

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Forever_ambivalent
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Re: First impression of the girls vs final impressions?

Post by Forever_ambivalent » Thu May 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Pandas wrote: Emi first impression- A cute bouncy little girl who seems to have a cute, teasy type of personality.

Emi impression after playing- That little jerk. Don't like her. No bueno. Rude and crazy. No bueno.

Emi after beautifully written paragraph by SpunkySix- She's cute and I understand where she comes from, but i'm not sure if I really like her all that much.
Care to show me said paragraph? I would very much like to relieve a bit of my hate towards Emi. I am not a big fan of hating character's in my favorite series. Especially when one of them is a main character (in a route).


@Potato after some reflection I have to say that my opinion of Shizune has risen. I understand her actions a bit more. I would go as far as saying I like her a bit if I hadn't realized that very often Misha actually changes what Shizune says so that it is less offensive.
Well Shizune is quite a memorable character either way.

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Re: First impression of the girls vs final impressions?

Post by SpunkySix » Thu May 22, 2014 2:24 pm

Forever_ambivalent wrote:
Pandas wrote: Emi first impression- A cute bouncy little girl who seems to have a cute, teasy type of personality.

Emi impression after playing- That little jerk. Don't like her. No bueno. Rude and crazy. No bueno.

Emi after beautifully written paragraph by SpunkySix- She's cute and I understand where she comes from, but i'm not sure if I really like her all that much.
Care to show me said paragraph?
http://ks.renai.us/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9649&start=30

It's more of an essay, really. 8)
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Re: First impression of the girls vs final impressions?

Post by Forever_ambivalent » Thu May 22, 2014 4:11 pm

SpunkySix wrote:
Forever_ambivalent wrote:
Pandas wrote: Emi first impression- A cute bouncy little girl who seems to have a cute, teasy type of personality.

Emi impression after playing- That little jerk. Don't like her. No bueno. Rude and crazy. No bueno.

Emi after beautifully written paragraph by SpunkySix- She's cute and I understand where she comes from, but i'm not sure if I really like her all that much.
Care to show me said paragraph?
http://ks.renai.us/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9649&start=30

It's more of an essay, really. 8)
Hopefully it is ok if I post my rebuttal to your post here.
If not please tell me.

Just before you tell me that I cannot empathize with Emi because I have never been through a similar situation and whatever, I can say that at least I am extremely close to people who have gone through similar situations.
Thing is, is that my sister has a very similar back story with Emi. Only that my sister has a much more sadder and worse one and affects her much more because she is a very emotional person and has never had nearly half the support from her school and such that Emi has had. Aside from that there are no similarities between Emi and my sister. Their injuries are also different as my sister still has her legs but I wouldn't say Emi's injuries are worse than hers (You wouldn't believe how painful it is to keep 2 limbs). I don't want to start talking too much about my sister's personality and history because I don't want to get too personal but I can say that Emi is much more aloof. I also have a cousin who has lost his entire family in an accident. I think I can safely conclude that they have both gone through a hell of a lot more than Emi. Yet I have never seen either of them react so badly at the mention of their lost ones. Yes I am aware that people are different but Emi is very peculiar.

Right now I am under the impression that Emi is strongly exaggerating everything to do with her father. She is being horrible, inconsiderate and extremely steadfast. I have never had my sister act so horribly to me when I ask her anything about the tragedy even when I said some of the most dense and insensitive things you could say (When I was younger I sucked at understanding figure of speeches). Although you could say that, because I am very close to her and never really had the struggle of getting close to my sister, I do not understand the fear of letting somebody get to know your problems. That wouldn't be entirely incorrect either.
However my sister is married and never has she just snapped at my brother-in-law for asking what happened to her and than just kicked him out of the house. Mentioning the tragedy makes my sister gloomy and makes the atmosphere depressing (that happens when you mention any tragedy though) but has never made her ,or my cousin in fact, feel the need to destroy the conversation, run out and than later screw somebody over when they are trying to comfort you. Basically what I am saying is that Emi acts in a very melodramatic way. Considering how she doesn't want anybody to get close to her and help her you would think that she would be quite stoic and hide her feelings (which she appears to be very capable of doing as we saw with her leg injury) yet her reaction's to anything to do with her tragedy is very melodramatic and is basically asking for the person to question what actually happened which defeats the purpose of trying to hide your problems. I am at least certain that when you wish to hide something from others you do not go and let all your feelings pour out the moment it is mentioned.
At one point I thought she simply used Hisao as a relief tool (which she does seem to largely use him as) because every time she feels low she stops acting cheerful and leads Hisao on a little. After Hisao understands that she is suffering and tries to comfort her (because he loves her and suffers when she suffers) she ruthlessly beats down on him.
She acts in such a stoic and strong manner at first but keeps on making melodrama and acting weak later on and beats down Hisao every time he wants to stop support her. It's very inconsistent and weird.
Let's not forget the fact that she basically just plays with Hisao's feelings for a while, has sex with him a few times for the heck of it and never really considers how Hisao feels about her until he literally forced her to acknowledge his feelings.

No, I don't think Emi is a unemotional jerk zombie. I think Emi is a melodramatic, insensitive, inconsistent and bad tempered girl. A bitch is too simple of a word to describe Emi. Emi is complicated but in a irritatingly bad way.

There are a lot more things I want to say but for now I think I have said enough. Please do convince me that I am wrong. If you can explain how I am wrong well then I will gladly change my view.

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Re: First impression of the girls vs final impressions?

Post by bhtooefr » Thu May 22, 2014 4:50 pm

I'll note that Emi suffers from PTSD, and worse, is in a country that so strongly stigmatizes mental health treatment that, most likely, the only KS character actually getting treatment is Hanako.
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Re: First impression of the girls vs final impressions?

Post by Forever_ambivalent » Thu May 22, 2014 6:05 pm

bhtooefr wrote:I'll note that Emi suffers from PTSD, and worse, is in a country that so strongly stigmatizes mental health treatment that, most likely, the only KS character actually getting treatment is Hanako.
Boom 80% of my argument which I spent 30 minutes working on was just demolished.
That explains a lot though. If Emi does have such a condition it does explain her actions sometimes.
Damn now I feel like shit for criticising somebody for their mental dissibility. Now that I know Emi actually has an anxiety disorder I do sympathize with her more.
It now makes sense why she reacts so differently about the tragedy from my sister.

I also have this feeling that Rin may be slightly autistic. She has certain autistic traits but I'm not sure if you would classify Rin as mildly autistic.
I wonder if there is a thread about this?

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Re: First impression of the girls vs final impressions?

Post by Atario » Thu May 22, 2014 6:23 pm

Really, though, everyone reacts to trauma differently. Different strokes coping mechanisms for different folks. Your sister gets depressed, whereas Emi deflects.
bhtooefr wrote:a country that so strongly stigmatizes mental health treatment
Honestly, I didn't get the feeling this entered into the story. Hanako is the only one getting treatment because she's the only one thought to require it. In Emi's case, that might have a lot to do with her success at hiding her problems. Shizune and Lilly are as well-adjusted as any of us, probably. (Better, in many cases, I imagine.) Rin? Well, "Artists are just supposed to be weird, y'know?".
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Re: First impression of the girls vs final impressions?

Post by Potato » Thu May 22, 2014 6:52 pm

Forever_ambivalent wrote:I am not a big fan of hating character's in my favorite series.


@Potato after some reflection I have to say that my opinion of Shizune has risen. I understand her actions a bit more. I would go as far as saying I like her a bit if I hadn't realized that very often Misha actually changes what Shizune says so that it is less offensive.
Well Shizune is quite a memorable character either way.
I love to hate characters in my favorite series. :mrgreen:

Misha's tone alone makes things less harsh. It's a bit of a problem...

And yeah, Emi has anxiety issues...Doesn't change her being a cunt though.

And I never got any sense of autism from Rin. I'm autistic and I don't throw out half as much random gibberish as she does. :lol:
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Re: First impression of the girls vs final impressions?

Post by SpunkySix » Thu May 22, 2014 7:19 pm

bhtooefr wrote:I'll note that Emi suffers from PTSD, and worse, is in a country that so strongly stigmatizes mental health treatment that, most likely, the only KS character actually getting treatment is Hanako.
Basically this. Different people react differently to tragedy and feel differently about it, (and oftentimes don't have control over it) and I think it's unfair to say that she's exaggerating because you don't know how she feels. She isn't your sister*. She's Emi. Which you've acknowledged, but I don't think you've considered why that might be enough.

Addressing the aforementioned inconsistencies first. When she kicks Hisao out of her house, she does it because in that moment it feels to her, depending on your choices, either that she has been betrayed or that she is being pressured. There is more than one way to hide feelings. Being stoic is one. Getting angry is another. For Emi it's the latter, because while she actually does puts up a cheerful facade as a first defense to try and hide her feelings, (which leads to perceived inconsistencies) she doesn't know how to handle somebody seeing through that and doesn't have much of a backup plan. It doesn't seem to happen often, and it suddenly forces her to relive what happened and makes her feel pressured to let somebody in, which can be very scary and leads to an outburst. Her method of hiding doesn't account for what happens when somebody realizes she has a problem and how to hide her feelings then; she doesn't know what to do then and doesn't think that far ahead. It's not even in her nature to think far ahead- notice that she puts down pirate as a career choice specifically because of that. Her strategy for hiding her emotions is instead making it seem like there isn't a problem at all so that there's no need to even worry about the later part. This is why the switch seems so sudden and out of nowhere- Hisao wasn't supposed to catch on to her issues in the first place. He was supposed to keep pretending everything was all happy and good, and he didn't. Her exaction then was a panicked knee-jerk reaction, in this case, anger, most likely because she's a fireball in all aspects of life, which tends to be a double-edged sword at times. It's not really inconsistent with the rest of her personality, it just looks that way because there's a lot going on behind the scenes.

This is amplified by the fact that all of this is taking place near the anniversary of the event and she seems to get especially upset during that time, even faking being busy with finals to try and avoid getting too emotional about it around Hisao and trying to avoid giving him a clue that something is off in the process. An old interview with her writer, Hivemind, even states that she tends to feel worse about it than usual around that time. That isn't melodrama, it's emotion. Saying "x person has seen worse but acts better about it" doesn't change how she feels or make her feel any better. In fact, that's like saying "these things happen" which explicitly doesn't help her. Some people who are starving get along just fine in Africa without expressing much emotion- does that suddenly solve all of your problems and change how you feel about them? It doesn't for me. Comparing emotions for different levels of stress and different levels of tragedy and struggle and acting like they should equate on some mathematical scale just doesn't work. Emotions aren't rational like that.

As for her being inconsiderate, I'd say this is also untrue. She does use Hisao as relief to an extent, but she doesn't lead him on because that implies that she never wanted to get closer to him to begin with and only plans to toss him aside, which is false. Like I said, she does want to move on, but comes to a mental block when the emotional aspect gets to a certain point. She doesn't just play around with Hisao's emotions, she uses sex as a coping mechanism while she struggles to find a way to let him in. She doesn't totally fail to consider his feelings either. It doesn't look very much like she does because of her sexual coping mechanism, but a good part of the reason she is able to finally come through at the end and trust Hisao with her story is because she does realize how much he cares about her and she has thought about that. She wouldn't struggle so much and do something so significant for somebody she didn't think gave a damn. Reread the scene where she begins to tell the story, and notice how slowly she has to build up to telling Hisao even when they're already at the site. It's painful. She had wanted to that for a long time, but she needed a push to get there that was a happy medium between firm and understanding, which in the good ending, Hisao manages to find.

She does have problems, just like everybody else. Serious, damaging, hurtful ones. She puts up a shield of cheerful denial and acts rudely when it is pierced. Her inability to move past paper-thin sexual endeavors as a distraction is not a positive. She can be stubborn to a fault, and often is. She's notably vulgar. Her short-sightedness hurts her at times. She doesn't play up her feelings for attention though. She isn't disjointed, and she isn't weak. Even with her occasional temper flares, the vast majority of the time she is kind and caring. She works to improve herself each day, and has done so significantly by the end of the VN's school year, more than a lot of people do in a lifetime. She gets there with Hisao's help, but Hisao does not force her to get better as a person- she still has to do that in the end because nobody in the world can do it for her, and I think she does a pretty good job of it, all things considered. She owns her mistakes and tries her best to move on and learn from them, and that's all you can do.

*My greatest sympathies go out to your sister, by the way. I by no means intended to minimize her issues or struggles with this comment, and I think it's good that she can deal with her emotions on a more controlled level.
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Re: First impression of the girls vs final impressions?

Post by Forever_ambivalent » Thu May 22, 2014 7:59 pm

SpunkySix wrote:
bhtooefr wrote:I'll note that Emi suffers from PTSD, and worse, is in a country that so strongly stigmatizes mental health treatment that, most likely, the only KS character actually getting treatment is Hanako.
Basically this. Different people react differently to tragedy and feel differently about it, (and oftentimes don't have control over it) and I think it's unfair to say that she's exaggerating because you don't know how she feels. She isn't your sister*. She's Emi. Which you've acknowledged, but I don't think you've considered why that might be enough.
The comparing Emi to my sister thing was a mistake from the start. Emi has PTSD my sister doesn't. That already makes the situation incomparably different.
Seriously 80% of my argument was just invalid. It's really horrible to get a person who has anxiety issues and say that they should react to their trauma the same way a person without any of these disorders has. I should have considered the possibility that Emi may have some traumatic disorder afterwards her incident.
I am sorry for being so out of line. Hopefully it will never happen again.


It's a good thing Emi isn't a real person otherwise I would get chewed up by her (although I deserve it).
I will need to think more about Emi though.
Emi using sex as a coping mechanism really irks me though. I always like to see sex as a presentation of affection. Surely Emi can find a different coping mechanism. Such as study. I believe that there is always at least one academic subject that a person can get engrossed in.
The biggest problem with using sex as a coping mechanism is that Hisao doesn't know that and takes the relationship a lot more seriously (as he takes it in more affectionately). We can see it happen when Hisao talks to Yuuko about it. Obviously he feels quite depressed and what Emi has been doing is completely ignoring how he may take sex and how he feels about the relationship.

BTW you were saying how Emi tries to hide her agony. Isn't it more like she shows it but tells Hisao or whoever to go away? She states that (pretty much strongly implies) that she is suffering but than tell them to bugger off. Its different to hiding your feelings. It makes people who care about her upset. Being considerate isn't just being nice. To be considerate you have to consider how the other person may feel due to your actions. Emi almost never does that.


In any case I will need to think harder. Thanks for the reply and sorry for the screwup earlier.

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Re: First impression of the girls vs final impressions?

Post by SpunkySix » Thu May 22, 2014 8:15 pm

No need to apologize.

I agree that sex isn't the best coping mechanism, but it makes her comfortable and it's what she defaults to. Is it a good thing? No, absolutely not. I think the final H scene demonstrates pretty clearly how much better the actual passion of lovemaking is. That being said, people don't intentionally select coping mechanisms a lot of the time. They don't say, "this will be my coping mechanism" it just happens, sometimes without fully realizing it even. This is different with help from a doctor, where you do learn better coping skills, but it doesn't seem to work for her. I think she mentions trying that and not liking it. As for classes... probably not her specialty. The whole "sitting still" thing doesn't suit her to begin with, and I think it's implied in one of the routes that her grades aren't doing so hot because she's not very book smart.

As for Hisao not knowing that, it's kind of complicated there. I don't think she faked it from the start- the first time for them seems pretty genuine, if not nearly as emotional as their last. It's just that after that, it begins to become more of a routine going through the motions sort of thing. It takes some time, but Hisao does catch on. That's where it goes wrong, and it's something that does hurt him. Not intentionally so, but it does. Again though, it improves, and that's what I see as the important part.

Emi shows her pain, but only after it has been discovered that she has problems. Until then, she's perfectly fine trying to act like nothing bothers her. It's once Hisao starts to not buy it that her switch flips. Again, I do think Emi considers how this affects Hisao, but is having trouble stopping it.
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Re: First impression of the girls vs final impressions?

Post by brythain » Thu May 22, 2014 8:20 pm

bhtooefr wrote:I'll note that Emi suffers from PTSD, and worse, is in a country that so strongly stigmatizes mental health treatment that, most likely, the only KS character actually getting treatment is Hanako.
It's more accurate to say that she's the only one mentioned as getting it. After all, Nurse is actually the head nurse, and when Hisao's shown around Yamaku, he's told that there's a full nursing staff. Not too much of a stretch to think that possibly there's also a counselling staff. The reason I say this is that while the country at large might be considered to strongly stigmatise the whole idea of mental illness, a school that seeks to integrate the disabled is unlikely to suffer so much from that.

A better perspective might be to say that mental illness as a whole is stigmatised in public perceptions worldwide; it's just that people in places like North America try to avoid doing that, while the Japanese try to conceal it. However, a drop in forced mental illness institutionalisations from 75,000 to 1,800 nationwide since 1970 does show some improvement, I'd say.
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Re: First impression of the girls vs final impressions?

Post by Guest Poster » Fri May 23, 2014 1:06 am

Honestly, I didn't get the feeling this entered into the story. Hanako is the only one getting treatment because she's the only one thought to require it. In Emi's case, that might have a lot to do with her success at hiding her problems.
The difference between Hanako and Emi her is probably more the fact that Hanako accepts the fact that she needs help to sort herself out while Emi doesn't. Since a fair share of students at Yamaku probably has a condition as a result of an accident, I imagine that Yamaku's therapy staff is very familiar with PTSD. And while Emi likes to hide her issues, the guy in charge of assigning therapy to students knows her well enough to know about them and he knows that they're a bigger problem than she lets on. He could easily get Emi counseling if she was open to it. The problem is probably that she isn't. Emi doesn't want help, because Emi doesn't need help. At least, that's how she thinks. Therapy only works when the participant is at least willing to cooperate.
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Re: First impression of the girls vs final impressions?

Post by dedsec » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:49 pm

Shizune: Doesn't seem to take no for an answer.......................she reminds me of my dad.
Misha: Seems to know a lot about the school, which is helpful...I like her more than Shizune, which isn't saying much.
Emi: Kinda pushy, but means well..................................distant and understandably so.
Lilly: Really kind........................................................she was well worth the chase.
Hanako: She's about as shy as I was when I was in high school......a bit hasty at times, but a very sweet woman.
Rin: Open minded......................................................I want to see more of her artistic world.
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