Question about Lilly and Shizune

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Oddball
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Re: Question about Lilly and Shizune

Post by Oddball » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:35 pm

So, let me see if we're all on the same page here.

The devs have said that the only things that are canon are what's in the game unless they say otherwise, and in either case, they might just by lying or messing with people.

That about sum it up?
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Numb
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Re: Question about Lilly and Shizune

Post by Numb » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:48 pm

Okay, I just read Prof's math thingy... My brain is leaking out of my ears. I cannot comprehend that logic, me no understand :shock:

I'm gonna go with what I think makes for cooler fan fiction and say that Jigoro being disowned by the Satou family is the "canon" reason for different surnames, despite what the devs say. So many ideas, not sure how to use any :roll:
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Xanatos
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Re: Question about Lilly and Shizune

Post by Xanatos » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:06 am

Silentcook wrote::shock:

...Excuse me while I go bitchslap some fellow devs for not shutting the fuck up for trolling the readers for being freaking liars on general principles.

Christ on a crutch.
...I'm desperately trying to figure a logical reason as to why this post links to a Wiki article on cowtipping.

Anyway, they all originally shared Jigoro's surname but when that pansy Hideaki came along, the rest changed their names to distance themselves out of sheer embarrassment. Jigoro kept the name because distancing himself would basically be admitting a mistake (Hideaki) and Jigoro does not make mistakes.
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Hisao&Hanako<3
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Re: Question about Lilly and Shizune

Post by Hisao&Hanako<3 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:56 am

Hahaha! I remember when I first saw Hideaki. I thought, "Cute girl!"

Damn.

But then I also remember getting to the Chess scene and thinking, "Hanako! SAVE ME!"

And then to find that there's a story written on that. I felt bad so I ran through Shizune's route again. She gained some appeal and I started calling her Shicchan all the time.

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Atario
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Re: Question about Lilly and Shizune

Post by Atario » Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:03 am

Aura wrote:
Atario wrote:
Steinherz wrote:But somehow Akira is a Scottish name for girls apparently :lol:
This fact feels to me like the whole reason Lilly's family was made Scottish. It's just too perfect.
It's actually a total coincidence!
Ok. But don't sit there and tell me someone didn't do some sort of matching-lookup search between a list of Japanese names and a list of Scottish names. Clever, tricksy devs!
NB: none of the above is a request

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Re: Question about Lilly and Shizune

Post by ProfAllister » Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:05 am

...I guess people around here aren't big fans of symbolic logic.

Anyway, the whole bit about dev statements and canonicity is a bit of a tangent. I just strongly dislike the citation of dev statements as canon, because it stifles any conversation. (Also, I like symbolic logic.)

More germane, I simply don't understand why the devs have made such a big deal about this detail that they're going out of their way to change it. "Brother" can easily encompass "brother in law," so I personally believe the entire "why don't the have the same last name?" discussion is the product of being deliberately obtuse.

And, frankly, if we're going to be changing things to make them less misinterpretable, I would strongly recommend the first stop be changing "the most honest part of my body" to "my penis." Because there's much more basis for someone misinterpreting that comment. Not that I'm recommending any changes, of course. I just really don't get how this is such an earth-shattering "error."

I'm also skeptical that "-in-law" would really be a natural insertion that avoids making it come off as awkward, but I'm always willing to be pleasantly surprised.
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Atario
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Re: Question about Lilly and Shizune

Post by Atario » Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:50 am

ProfAllister wrote:...I guess people around here aren't big fans of symbolic logic.
What, we like it! Don't be like that… [Pats Prof's head, feeds him a cookie]
Anyway, the whole bit about dev statements and canonicity is a bit of a tangent. I just strongly dislike the citation of dev statements as canon, because it stifles any conversation. (Also, I like symbolic logic.)
Well, I don't think the idea is to shut anyone down. Just to provide some strong evidence of original intent in order to answer the original question.
More germane, I simply don't understand why the devs have made such a big deal about this detail that they're going out of their way to change it.
My guess, based on my own feelings about such things I've done, is that it's simple embarrassment at having overlooked an obvious mistake and subsequently wishing to make the mistake go away. Can't say I blame them for the impulse.
"Brother" can easily encompass "brother in law," so I personally believe the entire "why don't the have the same last name?" discussion is the product of being deliberately obtuse.
Do you have any brothers (or sisters) -in-law? I do. I know I'd correct it pretty quick if someone called my sister's husband my "brother", full stop.
And, frankly, if we're going to be changing things to make them less misinterpretable, I would strongly recommend the first stop be changing "the most honest part of my body" to "my penis." Because there's much more basis for someone misinterpreting that comment.
I'd call that an issue of the wish to avoid IKEA Erotica winning out over the wish for perfect unmisinterpretability (dang that's a mouthful (that's what she said!)).
I'm also skeptical that "-in-law" would really be a natural insertion that avoids making it come off as awkward, but I'm always willing to be pleasantly surprised.
I don't imagine it as something glibly inlined. More like this:
Hisao, hypothetically speaking, wrote:Wait a minute, if Hideaki is the son of Akira's uncle, and Shizune is his sister, then that means…

"Lilly and Shizune are first cousins?"
Just leave out "brothers" entirely and let the reader infer brothers-in-law.
NB: none of the above is a request

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Xanatos
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Re: Question about Lilly and Shizune

Post by Xanatos » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:33 pm

Hisao&Hanako<3 wrote:Hahaha! I remember when I first saw Hideaki. I thought, "Cute girl!"

Damn.

But then I also remember getting to the Chess scene and thinking, "Hanako! SAVE ME!"

And then to find that there's a story written on that. I felt bad so I ran through Shizune's route again. She gained some appeal and I started calling her Shicchan all the time.
I had the same thing happen when I met Hideaki...Pretty awkward.

And Prof, they can't change it to "penis" because a weird unspoken law of VNs is to always refer to genitalia with the most bizarre metaphors that literally nobody has or will ever actually use. :lol:
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Re: Question about Lilly and Shizune

Post by Steinherz » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:42 pm

Xanatos wrote:
Hisao&Hanako<3 wrote:Hahaha! I remember when I first saw Hideaki. I thought, "Cute girl!"

Damn.

But then I also remember getting to the Chess scene and thinking, "Hanako! SAVE ME!"

And then to find that there's a story written on that. I felt bad so I ran through Shizune's route again. She gained some appeal and I started calling her Shicchan all the time.
I had the same thing happen when I met Hideaki...Pretty awkward.
Almost everyone has that thought when meeting Hideaki.
Unless your trap-sense is good.
Xanatos wrote:And Prof, they can't change it to "penis" because a weird unspoken law of VNs is to always refer to genitalia with the most bizarre metaphors that literally nobody has or will ever actually use. :lol:
You've got a point there XD
Only the straight up porn ones use more normal references for genitalia :lol:
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Re: Question about Lilly and Shizune

Post by Xanatos » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:51 pm

Steinherz wrote:You've got a point there XD
Only the straight up porn ones use more normal references for genitalia :lol:
Personally, I enjoy traps, so I didn't mind.

And yeah...I could kind of get it if it was a Japanese VN. They've got those laws against explicit penetration shots, so weird metaphors and pixel penises are probably a loophole...But why carry that to English versions? And even with that excuse, "eggplant" is a fucked up metaphor for either gender's bits. :lol:
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Re: Question about Lilly and Shizune

Post by griffon8 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:51 pm

Steinherz wrote:
Xanatos wrote:
Hisao&Hanako<3 wrote:Hahaha! I remember when I first saw Hideaki. I thought, "Cute girl!"

Damn.

But then I also remember getting to the Chess scene and thinking, "Hanako! SAVE ME!"

And then to find that there's a story written on that. I felt bad so I ran through Shizune's route again. She gained some appeal and I started calling her Shicchan all the time.
I had the same thing happen when I met Hideaki...Pretty awkward.
Almost everyone has that thought when meeting Hideaki.
Unless your trap-sense is good.
Any of us who were around before the full release weren't fooled. I don't remember how it came about, but Hideaki was known to be male and Shizune's younger brother. At that point it was as canonical as any of the dev's trolling, but it seemed pretty firm in those details.
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