Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

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Re: Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

Post by Guest Poster » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:28 am

In fact, Lilly doesn't tell Hisao she has decided. She just drops a few reasons why it would be ok for her to go, then she waits for his reaction.
I do believe she mentions that she decided "some time ago", but when you get to the reasons she gives as justifications, it's made painfully obvious that she herself does not want to go, but that she feels pressured by the circumstances to go.
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Re: Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

Post by Mirage_GSM » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:55 am

I don't think you are remembering correctly; however, to be fair to you, I find a lot of people miss this even when they have the text in front of them. In fact, Lilly doesn't tell Hisao she has decided. She just drops a few reasons why it would be ok for her to go, then she waits for his reaction. Which, as you correctly remembered at the very top of your post, is just dully moving on with the assumption that it's a total done deal.
That is your interpretation of the scene - one which is shared by a lot of other Lilly fanboys, but to say that other people "missed" this just because they interpreted the scene differently is a bit presumptious, don't you think?
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Re: Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

Post by Atario » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:36 am

Mirage_GSM wrote:
I don't think you are remembering correctly; however, to be fair to you, I find a lot of people miss this even when they have the text in front of them. In fact, Lilly doesn't tell Hisao she has decided. She just drops a few reasons why it would be ok for her to go, then she waits for his reaction. Which, as you correctly remembered at the very top of your post, is just dully moving on with the assumption that it's a total done deal.
That is your interpretation of the scene - one which is shared by a lot of other Lilly fanboys, but to say that other people "missed" this just because they interpreted the scene differently is a bit presumptious, don't you think?
Well, you tell me:
Hisao: "What did you decide to do, in the end?"

I know what I want her to say, but an awful feeling refuses to leave my gut.

Lilly: "My family does dearly want me to return to them, and Akira will be going as well. I could still teach as a career, whether it be here or there."

Hisao: "So… you're going."
Where in that does she say she's going?

Hisao hears three arguments for going, and responds not with even a single countervailing reason to stay, but with a conclusion that those are all the arguments that exist. Not "But I love you and want you to stay", not "But is that what you really want?"; just "So I guess that settles it". What's Lilly supposed to think here except that his attitude is that she should go?

Also, what is this "Lilly fanboy" stuff? Are you accusing me of holding her blameless? In taking this "let me test his reaction" approach instead of just being open and honest with Hisao, she helps set up their needless and mutually unwanted parting and heartache. What goes wrong is her fault as well.
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Re: Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

Post by Mirage_GSM » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:56 pm

Where in that does she say she's going?
In this part it is not conclusively stated but only strongly implied.
A few lines further down she confirms that she had already decided when Hisao asks her.
Are you accusing me of holding her blameless?
Uh.. No?
For one thing, whether or not you blame her for her actions didn't even come up yet, for another, even if you did not blame her I could hardly accuse you of it, since that would imply some kind of wrongdoing, and what opinions you hold is completely your business.
The only thing I was objecting to was you projecting your opinions on others.
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Re: Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

Post by Xanatos » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:35 pm

Mirage has a good point....

Honestly, if I were Lilly, I'd be more saddened by Hisao's apparent apathy over the parting than the parting itself.
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Re: Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

Post by Atario » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:26 am

Mirage_GSM wrote:A few lines further down she confirms that she had already decided when Hisao asks her.
She says that after Hisao's already made it look like he doesn't care. She's not going to say "I decided just now, when you made it clear you think I should go". Avoiding difficult discussions doesn't stop just because the relationship is going to.
Are you accusing me of holding her blameless?
Uh.. No?
Well then help me out. What does calling me a "Lilly fanboy" mean?
The only thing I was objecting to was you projecting your opinions on others.
We're not talking about opinions, we're talking about seeing what's happened in a narrative. Unless you can give a better case for some alternate interpretation, I don't see what the objection is.
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Re: Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

Post by Atario » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:27 am

Xanatos wrote:Mirage has a good point....

Honestly, if I were Lilly, I'd be more saddened by Hisao's apparent apathy over the parting than the parting itself.
Huh? Wasn't that my point, not his? Or…?
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Re: Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

Post by Blasphemy » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:05 am

I'm in agreement with Atario. Both parties are at fault and it comes from their unwillingness to talk straight to the point. They dance around doing that and try to elicit straights by answers by the other by making very subtle implications, such as the aforementioned three arguments and instead of a clear "I decided to go." And thanks to their characterizations the two of them tend to assume rather the worst ("So I guess that settles it"), so they in return can hold back and not take the step to outright say what they want. Because both are so afraid to be responsible for forcing the issue they manage to avoid talking about how much they love each other.
Well then help me out. What does calling me a "Lilly fanboy" mean?
The answer to that is probably that he doesn't call you a Lilly fanboy but merely mentioned that Lilly fanboys tend to use the same argument.
But let's be honest, when it has absolutely zero relevance and you don't want to sound degrading, then why even mention fanboyism. Who cares if there are Lilly "fanboys" who do use this argument. If it's a valid argument then it would still remain valid if used by a fanboy.

edit:
I do by the way think that overall Lilly's much more at fault as far as a possible breakup and her departure is concerned, it's just that in that specific conversation you can see errors on both sides.

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Re: Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

Post by Atario » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:59 am

Blasphemy wrote:
Well then help me out. What does calling me a "Lilly fanboy" mean?
The answer to that is probably that he doesn't call you a Lilly fanboy but merely mentioned that Lilly fanboys tend to use the same argument.
He said my interpretation was shared by "other" Lilly fanboys, meaning I'm one too. If you're right, I'd like to hear it from him.
I do by the way think that overall Lilly's much more at fault as far as a possible breakup and her departure is concerned, it's just that in that specific conversation you can see errors on both sides.
I could see that feeling. She is playing a little bit of a mind game, even if she doesn't mean to. However, it should be an easy game to win for Hisao. The fact that he fails it for so long means something too. Hell, I think he'd be a little to blame even if she had explicitly said she wanted to go and he still never said he wanted her to stay.
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Re: Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

Post by Jobriq » Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:08 pm

I'd much rather be a lilly fangirl than a lilly fanboy.... I have a penis though... also Hanako is totally better right? or maybe Rin is the best.... decisions decisions....
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Re: Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

Post by Mirage_GSM » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:18 pm

We're not talking about opinions, we're talking about seeing what's happened in a narrative. Unless you can give a better case for some alternate interpretation, I don't see what the objection is.
This is going in circles. I'm out.
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Re: Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

Post by dewelar » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:39 pm

Really, it's all about how you interpret her answer to the question of how long ago she knew she was going. Specifically, she says "Some...time". It's pretty much the height of being vague, because that could literally mean anywhere from a second ago to a month ago.

For my own part, I tend to believe that yes, leaving was always Lilly's default plan, but she was open to changing her mind. For her purposes, she was never given a compelling enough reason to do so.
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Re: Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

Post by Atario » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:11 am

Mirage_GSM wrote:
We're not talking about opinions, we're talking about seeing what's happened in a narrative. Unless you can give a better case for some alternate interpretation, I don't see what the objection is.
This is going in circles. I'm out.
Uh-huh. A circle would be coming back to where we started. You have yet to say what your alternative is and why it's more likely. Talk about avoidance. ◔̯◔
dewelar wrote:Really, it's all about how you interpret her answer to the question of how long ago she knew she was going. Specifically, she says "Some...time". It's pretty much the height of being vague, because that could literally mean anywhere from a second ago to a month ago.
EXACTLY. She's letting him believe whatever he wants to believe. And that, sadly, is that she's known and has been hiding it from him. Which, logically, would make her a user and a bitch. But he still excuses her; avoiding an uncomfortable topic, just like she does.
For my own part, I tend to believe that yes, leaving was always Lilly's default plan, but she was open to changing her mind. For her purposes, she was never given a compelling enough reason to do so.
I could sort of see that, excepting her own love for him. But to me, it seems more likely that she really hasn't known at all right up till that moment. She's annoyed at Akira for spilling the beans, saying she wanted to have made a decision before telling him. This would mean that she hadn't made the decision.

The weird thing to think about is: what if Akira hadn't told him? The travel date is less than a week out when the discussion happens. Talk about an awkward conversation. "More tea? Oh, and did I mention we're scheduled to go away forever tomorrow?" Get it together, Lilly!
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Re: Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

Post by Jobriq » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:06 am

Atario wrote: EXACTLY. She's letting him believe whatever he wants to believe. And that, sadly, is that she's known and has been hiding it from him. Which, logically, would make her a user and a bitch. But he still excuses her; avoiding an uncomfortable topic, just like she does.

The weird thing to think about is: what if Akira hadn't told him? The travel date is less than a week out when the discussion happens. Talk about an awkward conversation. "More tea? Oh, and did I mention we're scheduled to go away forever tomorrow?" Get it together, Lilly!
Regardless of what Lilly had planned to do at that point, she really should have told Hisao sooner. Hearing it from Akira less than a week before the flight, it would only be natural for Hisao to wonder if she planned on telling him at all. He shoulda dumped her and went for the late Shizune route lol. He'd just be like "Hey Shizune, your cousin is totally a bitch! We should have sex to consecrate our mutual hated of blondes!"... or he'd write it on paper since he wouldn't know sign language or something...
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Re: Lilly's Route (SPOILERS)

Post by Guest Poster » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:17 pm

She probably would have waited until the moment the rest of the school would know...maybe a second or so sooner. Lilly didn't really know how to handle the situation, so she simply kept putting it off while praying for a miracle of some kind.
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