Archimedes wrote:That whole Jigoro part of the story is simply unbelievable in my opinion.
It could also be that Jigoro just started to care for her, but she thinks it's too late (that would at least be plausible).
Uhm... what? I present one possible interpretation, and point out that taking the literal meaning is unbelievable. And, rather than address the actual interpretation, you focus on agreeing that looking at things at face value presents an absurdity.
Some people that got sexually abused have unusual high sex drive as adults, that doesn't exclude.
No, i doubt that this is the actual case. But even childs that get abused in such a way tend to speak with their parents. (they may stop once they are old enough, but the choices of a child are quite limited)
I was more focusing on the fact that she has a
healthy attitude toward sex. Based strictly on relationship length, even Hanako has sex more often.
So, you really believe that it's not slightly exaggerated that a daughter doesn't talk to her father for the rest of her life if he does try to be a good father?
I know that it's stated a few times in the story that he actually does care about shizune, but it doesn't fit.
As i initially said, i believe that the Author wanted to suggest that Shizune is that way because of her childhood, but went to far (so that it is unbelievable). That was the actual thing that disturbed me, not that Jigoro is an asshole, but that he is unbelievable.
So, you are basically telling that a six year old decided to completely exclude her father - who simply tried to do the best for her - because of spite, or what? Do you really think that's plausible?
I had said that I needed to put more thought into it. I still haven't reached a conclusion on that point, but let's take it from the top:
Jigoro says she hasn't talked to him for 12 years. There are three possible interpretations:
a) Jigoro is referring specifically to vocalisation. He falls squarely into Bell's school of thought with regard to deafness.
b) Jigoro is stating that, since the age of six, Shizune hasn't "said" one word directly to him.
c) Jigoro is stating that they communicate in the barest sense, but there's no actual talking. "How was your day?" "Fine." "Anything interesting happen?" "Not really." "Where are you going?" "Out."
A is
possible, but a little far-fetched. It would explain why Shizune is in 3-3 rather than 3-1, but opens up some pretty severe difficulties. The most notable gap in this theory is Shizune herself. In this interpretation, she's deaf and the daughter of a Bellite, but insists on using sign language. Class assignment or no, that girl would have some deaf acquaintances at least, to say nothing of friends.
B has been the subject of most of this discussion. At this point, I'm thinking the greatest likelihood is that it hasn't been a major break-point event, but rather the cumulative result of Shizune's and Jigoro's conflicting personalities. Even at this, though, a total break in communication seems kind of extreme. Possible, but I'm beginning to doubt this interpretation, too.
C is... boringly mundane. Which may be why it's exactly the right answer. Shizune is shutting Jigoro out, it vexes Jigoro to no end, and, most notable of all, it's a universal conflict rather than one based strictly on her disability (that's a pretty big theme throughout KS, you'll notice). It's unusual for a child to start drifting away and becoming detached like that at six years old, but let's look at it another way.
Shizune is treating Jigoro the exact same way she treats Misha and Hisao. All three of those people want a deeper connection with Shizune, and it eats away at them that they can't achieve it. And she has absolutely no clue. She thinks that everything's fine. She's not shuttign Jigoro out - she's just answering his questions. It's a waste of time to go rambling on about pointless details, anyway.
Well, we could just assume that Hisao shout every sentence, but there is no hint in the story.
Such things should be explicit noted by the author.
You'd have a point if this were third person omniscient. But it's not. It's first person perspective. to be a believable first-person account, it's necessary that the narrator have the possibility of (a) being mistaken or misinterpreting events and actions; (b) failing to notice key details (either the significance oft he details or even their very presence); and (c) misleading the reader, either deliberately or unintentionally, due to the inherent bias of reporting things from his perspective.
Regardless, details about tone and body language are so subtle that most people don't notice them about themselves. It would be
nice if we had more information about how Hisao is acting, but it's unnatural for a narrator to report their habitual inclinations. Obviously, there would be a huge difference between a Hisao that stands at attention and responds to Jigoro's questions in a crisp military fashion on one hand; and a Hisao that slouches with his arms crossed and feet propped up on the coffee table, pronouncing every word with a sneer. Neither of those Hisao's are likely, as the real Hisao is probably someone in between.
I guess, when it comes down to it, we've been trying to take a
Rashomon-style approach to the character of Jigoro. I think, in the end, it's actually been very helpful in getting a better sense of who the real Jigoro might be. At least, it's been productive for me...
Guest Poster wrote:Personally I'm more inclined to give Hisao the benefit of the doubt since we learn quite a bit about Hisao over the course of the VN and he doesn't really have the habit of being bratty towards adults. Jigoro, on the other hand, is pretty much rude and confrontational in every scene he takes part in and we never really see any other side to him. (unlike his daughter who is shown worrying over Hanako after her panic attack and initiates a truce with her cousin before they're set to part ways showing she's a caring individual despite her stubbornness and forceful personality)
Given the fact that he only has four scenes, we learn quite a bit about Jigoro. I maintain that he's quite a gracious host (and neither rude nor confrontational) in the first half of his introductory scene. Things don't go south until Hisao asks him about his profession. More important is his fourth scene, which happens to be the only one where he isn't really responding to Hisao. Ostensibly, he's yelling at a deaf girl about how
his Student Council was
much better, then he asks Shizune a single question and leaves. I've already gone into detail elsewhere, but I really do think that that scene hints at a MUCH softer Jigoro than we got to see in the other three scenes. Hell, Hisao practically says as much himself (and Shizune agrees).
My personal impression was that Jigoro was looking for a confrontation. Chewing out Hisao over stuff like his dressing sense (while his only son's dressing sense is even worse) or a bunch of fishing rods (if anybody's responsible for those, it's Shizune and Hideaki, not some stranger who's never been in the house) just seems petty. It's also kind of short-sightened.
Depending on the specific objections, Hisao actually has worse fashion sense than Hideaki. Hideaki at least has the basic competence to coordinate colors (even Shizune gives Hisao a hard time about that). The fishing rods weren't actually ever directed specifically toward Hisao. It's only when Hisao tried to explain how they worked out having more people than rods that Jigoro focused on him. And, in all honesty, it's pretty hard to read Hisao's explanation without it coming off as a little insulting, sexual innuendos aside.
Details aside, I'd be willing to accept the proposition that he's looking for a confrontation, but less convinced that it would be to feel better about himself. You'll recall that Shizune and Misha claim that he always does that with guests. I'd imagine he does it to see how they measure up. Hisao mentions that Shizune judges people not by their answers to questions, but by their reactions to statements. If Jigoro's the same, we can toss out the past four pages discussing Hisao's choice of words, tone, etc. If we focus only on how Hisao reacts to Jigoro's statements, it's a pretty poor showing.
Let's say you have a daughter who's been shutting you out for well over a decade despite all your efforts to reach out to her. (and hire tutors to teach her to reach out to you) Then some random guy comes along with her. He IS able to communicate with your daughter and she's currently dating him, maybe even sleeping with him. He may lack drive and direction in life compared to you, yet he learned sign language in 2 months (purely so he could interact with your daughter...not because he wants to teach sign language or anything) while you couldn't do it in 12 years despite also wanting that interaction. His fashion style and appearance may suck compared to yours, yet he got your daughter to accept him in a very short time and she vastly prefers his company to yours. He may be pond scum compared to you, yet he pwned you in that one important area. Yeah, that probably stings. Now how to deal with him...
I will readily concede that there's something about Hisao that antagonises Jigoro and brings out the worst in him, for the reasons you've stated and more.
...With one caveat.
You see, it never actually establishes whether Jigoro knows sign language. He doesn't use it, but remember that we're peeking in on a relationship that's been 18 years in the making. Hisao assumes that he doesn't know sign language, and it
is established that Hideaki doesn't know sign language, but those aren't really indicative of anything. I will concede that it is more likely than not that Jigoro doesn't know sign language, but there's
just enough ambiguity there.
You COULD try to show your best side, make him warm up to you and hope he might eventually act as a bridge between you and your estranged daughter. Maybe even say stuff like "that old man of yours isn't THAT bad" when the subject comes up between him and her. It might work to your benefit. It's not like you have that much to lose in that area.
Or you could see the guy as a walking bag of salt determined to rub itself in your wounds. You could talk down to him and make him dislike you. Just don't be surprised if he eventually starts encouraging your daughter's shut-dad-out behavior and starts convincing her that nothing important will be lost if she comes to celebrate the next new year (and the ones that follow) at HIS home instead of yours.
Depending on the actual nature of Shizune and Jigoro's relationship (as addressed elsewhere in this discussion). Regardless, you're discussing a rational assessment of the situation. No matter how much someone can recognise the rationality of a situation, some faces just deserve to be punched, and it's
hard to keep yourself from filling that need. We're largely talking about how Jigoro reacts to a new, unfamiliar, and unpleasant individual, invading his home and seducing his daughter - all within a relatively short space of time. Is it really fair to judge his entire character and the entire tenor of their relationship based on his difficulty controlling his temper (He loses it the first two times, while the third time he keeps it under relative control)? Especially when we have a fourth scene that doesn't necessarily redeem him, but implies that there's much more than those first encounters might imply?
And, on a more practical point, I think Shizune would drop Hisao like a hot potato if he tried distancing her from her father (especially if we subscribe to option C up there...).
