Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

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Archimedes
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Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

Post by Archimedes » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:04 am

Hi,

i finished Shizunes good and bad ending yesterday. I wanted to share my impression and ask you some questions. Also i'm not sure if understood everything, i will probably play shizunes arc again if it's translated in my langauge just to see if i missed something out. I critique her arc quite heavily i guess, but would like to read from someone who may had a complete different impression of her story.

A note: this post/thread will contain spoilers, i will only tag spoilers that would spoil something out of other arcs (lilly, emi etc...).

Where should i start?

Maybe with the character that honestly spoiled the fun for me. Jigoro. Obviously he's an Asshole, but that's not what spoiled the fun for me. It's because he doesn't seem to fit. One thing that annoyed me way more than it probably should was his hair color. Blue hair turning into green? I thought that Shizune dyed her hair just like misha did, but jigoro doesn't seem to be that guy that colorize his hair. Also hideaki (who seems to be autistic) doesn't seem like someone who would dye his hair green. So... Is that their natural hair color?

I know that it's common in anime that characters have unnatural hair colors, i usually wouldn't mind, but katawa shoujo is highly realistic, it's mentioned multiple times how strange mishas hair color is and we can even see a photo of her with her natural hair color in lillys arc. But it seems like Jigoros shirt is weirder for hisao then his hair (saturated blue turning into green, with a strange cut and probably using styling gel to hold them in form). It looks like Jigoro is a badly exaggerated warrior taken out of an fantasy anime, not like an father in a very realistic, often melancholic Visual Novel about handicapped people.

Also he is very flat and highly unbelievable. How could someone with his personality earn so much money? Only if he is a pimp, dealer or hitman. I also doubt that someone like him would have a daughter like shizune. It seems like the author wanted to implicit that shizune is the way she is because of jigoro, hideaki may as well. (i would say that hideaki is autistic, shizune may as well. you don't need to have father like jigoro to become autistic, that's not how it works). Sure, if you have parents that are hard to satisfy and easy to disappoint it's comprehensible that you will become very ambitious. But Jigoro seems like someone who, if you got an a+ in a hard exam, would rant about how easy the exam was instead of praising you. At some point you would stop trying to impress someone who isn't impressible and seek for other ways of getting attention. Imho People that have parents like jigoro usually end having a broken ego and possibly worse character traits.

And how comes that someone as shy, insecure, inexperienced and awkward as hisao can so easily speak to a hostile, insulting chuck Norris armed with a katana, right after the morning he fucked his daughter, even questioning him being a good father (even though he is subtle doing so)? I would say that I'm more confident then hisao, but i would have a hard time to speak easily with a narcissistic, insulting psychopath who threatens the 18 years old friends of his daughter multiple times, like Jigoro, after doing his daughter! (Honestly, would you do that?)

Ok, it could be that Shizune got raised by nanny's, but still the way she reacts to her father (indifferent) seems highly unbelievable to me. It would also be possible that he is just like this to hisao (which could be interpreted as some kind of odd ritual or being overprotective) but the way he talked about the school and student council and the fact that he isn't even willing to text shizune per phone make that unbelievable as well. (beside that, if he is narcissistic, which he seems to be, wouldn't he be willing to portray himself as a way better father then he actually is?).

They went way too far to make him look like a badass/bad father, totally breaking the immersion for me.

I believe that the guy who wrote jigoro had a "slightly" different vision of how katawa shoujo should be. (more like the common animes you see in tv at day).

Which leads me to the next thing: the author.

I believe that communication failed with the guy who wrote shizunes arc. It's the only arc that has only one option to choose after act 1. Most characters that appear are detached from the main story (the relationship of shizune and hisao), only in act 4 they have something important to say (the discussion with lilly for example). It's the longest arc so far i played, it focuses quite often on details. I wonder if the author is a bit like shizune / hideaki.

I could imagine that the author handed his story in too late and worked mostly for himself, as most things don't seem to be polished. Hisao also seem to be noticeable different then he is in other arcs and he acts inconsistent. I know that hisao is always a bit different depending on the route and adapts to the girl, but still...

Also hisao doesn't seem to suffer from his heart as much and serious as in other arcs. (lilly spoiler: in lillys arc he falls over multiple times, having heavy pain in his chest, he even passes out in a sex scene while being blindfolded. In Shizunes arc he is tied to a chair in the same house as a psychopath hating his guts for no reason, being grinded by the daughter of this psychopath and is fine... and once he gets nearly knocked out by kenji giving him a strong pat on the shoulder... in emis arc he have to visit the nurse regularly and does a lot of healthy things... )

There are soooo many Kenji parts. I like kenji, but imho they should have taken some of the kenji scenes and put them into arcs that were shorter then shizunes arc, to make things more even.

The story progresses slowly and there are, in my opinion, too many things that are subsidiary. Let me give you some examples:

For example hisao asks where misha is, shizune won't tell him and advises him to see for himself (they debate a bit about that). So he goes out and wants to visit her. He then decides that he doesn't want to. After a inner monologue about homework etc. he again decides to seek her. Shizune awaits him and after an dialog she leads him to misha (would he otherwise even know where to start his search? Afaik shizune didn't gave any directions...). That alone isn't bad, but there are multiple scenes like this...

Or the looong discussion about tissue boxes as election boxes. (arguing if they should draw funny faces on them to prevent them from being stolen, how wide the gap should be, how big the election papers should be...) Yes, that's what a student council does, i guess. But that's not the reason i read the story. It's absolutely fine to have something like this in the story, but that was actually in act 3, after maaany scenes very similiar to this one. I mean, i don't want to read about the protagonist going to the toilet everyday either or what he learns in math, except it's important for the story...

Hiaso mentioned so many times that he may is paranoid, he says to himself that he enjoys being in the student counsil, but even after being a official member in the student council he still tries to get out of work or bitches with shizune about it. If he enjoy being with shizune, want her to be her GF, is a member of the council, why act like he doesn't want to? It was funny the first times he resisted to do something for the student council, but became ridiculous after some time.

And the many kenjis part i mentioned before, like the one in the library...

Too many things that don't make the story progress or are in any relation to the relationship between shizune and hisao.

Did they ever had a relationship?

Im honestly not sure. Hisao told shizune relative early that he wants her to be his girlfriend and it was a quite romantic scene. For long time nothing happens, then shizune "practically rapes" Hisao in her fathers house, i wouldn't be in the mood to have sex as hisao, i would probably be afraid because of jigoro. :P.

And then... its like it never happened. They don't talk about it, and both don't take any step to have sex again. It's not like their relationship went to next level, instead they got both more distant. I wonder if I missed something out there. After having sex with the girl you want to be your girlfriend, why would you or her withdraw? They are teenagers, i would suspect them to having sex daily after that (it doesn't have to be described every time they do it, just shortly mentioning that they still have sex regularly like in emis path...). Or cuddle or sleep together in a bed. Maybe Shizune is different, i know some people are like this, but hisao as well? Not the Hisao i played on other routes (Emi Spoiler: If you played emis route, just think how upset he was because she didn't opened up to him. He went as far as risking a fight and relationship with her to get closer to her!)

If i had the first sex with my GF and she would withdraw from me after that, i would be worried... But hisao seemed to not care at all.

So, they have sex for the second time about two weeks later, if i got that right, if you take the good path, and they rarely meet or talk in the time between?

Good and Bad Ending

I played the bad ending first, things actually became more interesting in act 4.I found it really strange that hisao's affair never seemed to be of importance. It was mentioned a few times right after, but that's it. It's not even a big thing in the inner monologues of hisao, like he hardly feels guilty or regretful.

After that i played the good ending, and big parts where the same as in the bad ending, including most of the inner monologues (where the full screen is used for the text). That was quite disappointing.

Shizune

At first I was really interested in Shizune, i have quite a lot in common with her (except im not nearly as distant and cold as her, but she didn't seemed like this at first.), i even like her way of saying simple things in a oversubscribed bureaucratic way (sometimes i do the same) and being competitive and analytic. I also love beating my friends in games or things they are good in, going as far as reading game theory and strategy to do so. I would love playing board games with someone like her.

Guess that's some of the reasons i disliked her arc so much, you pretty much never learn something personal about her, you can only speculate about her past which can't explain her character (imho) if you don't make something up, they never have a real relationship, its very hard to identify with hisao in this arc (for me), no character development, most characters are flat (except for misha). I think that her arc could have been really great, as her character is surely unique and the story started quite well imo. (act 1 and the fist halve of act 2).

The dialogs in the very end were quite strange, i think. So, the big reveal is, that she wants to make people happy? really? If i remember correctly she already said something similar in act 2 about the festivals, that she works so hard to see everyone happily going to the festival etc. and it does explain her enthusiasm for the stud. council, but not her other odd character traits or the "relationship" they both had. Also she and hisao, both acted like her worst trait is to be competitive. Imho her worst trait is to never say something personal about herself, not even to her boyfriend. How comes that hisao never really talked about that, like he did with emi, and it really disturbed him that emi was this way?

I found the discussion you have with lilly in act 4 way more clarifying, i believe that it's been written by the author who also made the lilly arc and has been injected at the end. It's just a thought i had.

Edit:

Something i totally forgot:

How comes that Jigoro seem to be totally ok with his son "crossdressing"? As far as i can tell Hideaki isn't even aware of the fact that he looks like a girl. Is that even possible, with a sister like Shizune and a father like Jigoro? Especially Jigoro? It would be to expect that both would mock him, jigoro probably going as far as insulting him for his looks or being at least disappointed, and hideaki doesn't even recognize that he looks very feminine?

Also a short explaining of my assumption that maybe hideaki is autistic: He rarely shows emotion and answers the shortest answer possible, which is quite typical for children with autism. Most of them change their behavior when they grow up, some to the point that you would never guess that they have autism. I could imagine shizune being autistic as well, as she likes to analyze people while failing to empathize at the same time and sees playing chess as a bunch of algorithm/formula as well as her excessive tidiness. All of that are possible symptoms of autism. But even for someone with autism her coldness towards her boyfriend is odd in my opinion as autism doesn't mean that you can't fall in love with someone or have feelings towards someone, especially since she isn't like that from the beginning and doesn't mind to initiate sex two times.


Well, that are my thoughts, feel free to answer yours.
Last edited by Archimedes on Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:11 pm, edited 12 times in total.

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Re: Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

Post by OtakuNinja » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:15 pm

I approve of this thread. :)

I'm on my phone now, so I can't answer this, but I'm sure somebody else will. :)
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Re: Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

Post by Steinherz » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:26 pm

I believe it's because Shizune's route was supposed to be the inverse of Lilly's.
To be more specific: Lilly's route is like something from a soap opera, IE: An idealized relationship.
Shizune's relationship is more realistic. You don't need to help Shizune with her own issues because she does that herself.

Just my two cents.
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Re: Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

Post by Archimedes » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:52 pm

Its true that lillys route is idealized,especially the good ending is. A bit like a Hollywood movie. (i liked it a lot, though)

So, yea in some way shizune's arc is more realistic. But the actions of her and hisao aren't and the relationship isn't too, in my opinion (Is it realistic that hisao doesn't care that his girlfriend withdraws for weeks after having sex with him, or that he never tries to cuddle with her? Did they even kissed once in the whole story?*). As well as her father and brother, who are not even slightly realistic. Especially her father acts like coming straight from a very, veeery bad soap opera.

Thats actually quite strange, while shizunes arc has a lot of everyday occurrence in it and isn't idealized even a bit (thus being a bit more realistic), it also has the quirkiest and most unbelievable characters of all routes (i played so far), completely lacking character development, too.

If shizune was supposed to be a more realistic approach, it failed terribly imo.
Shizune's relationship is more realistic. You don't need to help Shizune with her own issues because she does that herself.
Most of the girls do that, at least the girls i played through.

Especially lilly, who is very motherly and often take more care of hisao then the other way around.

Edit:

*They did, they kissed both times they had Sex. Afaik It's never mentioned that they kiss outside the sex scenes.

Afaik most couples kiss and cuddle before they tie another on a chair and have bondage sex and also cuddle without having sex - with the exception of one night stands and prostitutes. I wouldn't call that a realistic relationship. If Shizune is simply that way, it should at least bother hisao, as he isn't that way. Take in mind that hisao told her that he wants her to be his GF right after the first fest (very early in the game) and until the tanabata fest and exams (very late in the game) nothing happens at all and then all of the sudden bondage sex :twisted: ...
Such things were more realistic in the other arcs as well as lillys arc.

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Re: Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

Post by Oddball » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:20 pm

As far as Shizune and Jigoro go, I'd say that it's very obvious that Shizune takes after her father. Look at the way she talks to the other girls in the game. She's very stubborn in her beliefs and opinions and seems to occupy the mindset that if somebody isn't like her, then there's something wrong with them. The big difference is Jigoro is older and more accomplished, so he's got just a bit more of an ego (not much though) and Shizune has Misha to act as a buffer between herself and others.
Thats actually quite strange, while shizunes arc has a lot of everyday occurrence in it and isn't idealized even a bit (thus being a bit more realistic), it also has the quirkiest and most unbelievable characters of all routes (i played so far), completely lacking character development, too.
Misha actually gets quite a bit of character development.

The big problem is that characters in her route seem to actually resist growth. There's a scene where Hideaki wants to learn sign language, but nothing comes from it. Then Jigoro shows up at the school and it seems fairly obvious he's trying to reach out to his daughter with the family trip idea, but nothing comes from that either. You find out Misha is basically just putting on a show for everybody but in the end, Shizune and Hisao seem content with her going back to hiding behind her facade again. Shizune says she'll change, but we never see it. Even in the good ending, it doesn't seem like they're a couple.

It just feels like nothing of note ever really happens in her route.
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Re: Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

Post by Steinherz » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:49 pm

Oddball wrote:The big difference is Jigoro is older and more accomplished, so he's got just a bit more of an ego (not much though)
Bullshit :lol:
You can see Jigoro's Ego from space man.
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Re: Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

Post by Archimedes » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:12 pm

Misha actually gets quite a bit of character development. [...]The big problem is that characters in her route seem to actually resist growth.[...]It just feels like nothing of note ever really happens in her route.
I agree.

As far as Shizune and Jigoro go, I'd say that it's very obvious that Shizune takes after her father.
Yes, im quite sure that this was the idea behind Jigoro. They have a lot in common, without question. I still doubt that someone like Jigoro would have a daughter like Shizune.

You are not like an exact clone of your parents. Just take a look at sisters and brothers you know from real life having the same parents, they are often very different from each other and their parents.

After all she seems to be too mentally well for having such an abusive father who refuses to text with his deaf daughter and insist to talk with misha instead...

Or may compare yourself with your parents, especially if you think back of when you were around 18 years old.
How many 18 year olds do you know that have the same work ethic as their parents or share the same world view or treat others the same way their parents do? The ones i know from real life, that had a lot of common with their parents, usually had content and caring parents and they spent a lot of time together...

Jigoro mentioned a few times that he doesn't have the time to visit her school and is very busy in general...

It just doesn't fit. It's a poorly approach to explain Shizune's character.

I have a cousin who has a father somewhat comparable to Jigoro (by far not as extreme), instead of being like him (ambitious, confident and successful) she has a totally broken ego swapping between two possible extremes (but most of the time she has low self-esteem), is full of anxiety and is sometimes difficult. She hates her father and never had contact with him once she had the opportunity.

As Jigoro is even more extreme, if he would raise a child realistically that child would probably end homeless or in jail, i believe.

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Re: Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

Post by Oddball » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:25 pm

Keep in mind, we also don't know how much influence her mother had on her. She's never mentioned in the game. Heck, she 's got less than ten pictures in the shimmie.
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Re: Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

Post by Archimedes » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:00 pm

True, but as i said, it only works if you make something up.

Like her mother, a nurse and the like.

There is no hint in the story for something like that. Shizune also never speaks about her past. (so there is no way to see how she perceived it).

If something is unknown or very vague you can interpret whatever you want, possibly giving the story more depth and sense then it initially had.
I prefer to judge what's there, if there aren't any indications at all, otherwise i would judge a possible theory and not the authors work or intention.

It wouldn't be hard to give any hint at all, like hisao exploring the house for himself and finding an old photo with shizune, jigoro and her mother were they seem very happy. I would perceive something as simple as that as a justification to make my own theories, even better if there are more hints leading to a possible theory. So the author would guide you into a direction and it's clearly is intent.

The total lack of any hints and the fact that Jigoro doesn't even seem to care that his son dresses like a girl and the way he simply is leads me to the assumption that the characters are simply flat and not well considered. It's just more likely.
Heck, she 's got less than ten pictures in the shimmie.
the shimmie?
Last edited by Archimedes on Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

Post by Steinherz » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:11 pm

Archimedes wrote:
Heck, she 's got less than ten pictures in the shimmie.
the shimmie?
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Re: Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

Post by Xanatos » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:50 pm

Archimedes wrote:katawa shoujo is highly realistic

Also hisao doesn't seem to suffer from his heart as much and serious as in other arcs.

shizune practically rapes Hisao in her fathers house
KS is not "highly realistic". It's just more realistic than a standard fantasy anime.

Hisao takes medication for his heart. A heart attack every few minutes isn't any fun so it wasn't written.

Shizune never "practically rapes" anyone ever.
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Re: Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

Post by Archimedes » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:25 pm

KS is not "highly realistic". It's just more realistic than a standard fantasy anime.
Just more realistic then a standard fantasy anime? Fantasy?
Tell me any fantasy elements in KS beside unnatural hair colors? It's fiction, but it has a realistic setting.

There isn't anything like magic or mythology in it, or superhumans or ninjas. It takes place in japan, so its to guess that it takes place one earth, not in middle earth, probably at the current age, so it's no scifi either.

A fiction about a normal private school without any supernatural elements taking place on the real earth at the current time is what i call "highly realistic setting". There is no more realistic setting possible then the real world.

Thats completely different from a standard fantasy anime. You cant label KS fantasy (unless you cant differ between fantasy and fiction).
Hisao takes medication for his heart. A heart attack every few minutes isn't any fun so it wasn't written.
Yea, having a hearth attack every few minutes wouldn't be realistic either.

However, he doesn't have any serious hearth attacks in shizunes arc, not even once, while he has multiple in lillys arc.
Shizune never "practically rapes" anyone ever.
I said practically and used quotes for a reason. Tieing someone you never had sex with before or intimate at a chair without asking him, not being able to communicate with him (as she is deaf and his hands are tied up) and who also happens to have a serious hearth problem is at least strange. (i think that she didn't known about his heart arrythmia at that time, otherwise you could even call it careless).

I wouldn't call it actually rape (hence the quotes), but just imagine that situation in real life.

If you still can't see it, swap the genders. (even though it's hypocritical)

Imagine a guy who never had sex with that girl before, never even kissed her, just spent some time with her, advises her to close her eyes and ties her to a chair, fucks her without being able to communicate with her, not knowing if she actually likes that kind of stuff as they never talked about that. Honestly, thats creepy! If you can't see that, im sorry for you. Especially for bdsm practices trust is important and communicating is too. You simply don't tie someone up just because you are in the mood to do so.

Some people have panic attacks when they can't move, and shizune at least knew that hisao has a lot of medicaments in his room and goes for a school for disabled people.

Yes, i would call that """"practically rape"""".
Last edited by Archimedes on Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

Post by Xanatos » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:32 pm

Archimedes wrote:However, he doesn't have any serious hearth attacks in shizunes arc, not even once, while he has multiple in lillys arc.

medicaments
If you wouldn't call it rape, don't call it rape. :P

And in Lilly's arc, I believe, Hisao constantly neglects his medication.

Medicament. Noun. A predicament related to the improper use or neglect of needed medication. "Hisao finds himself in many medicaments."
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Re: Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

Post by dewelar » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:40 pm

Archimedes wrote:not being able to communicate with him (as she is deaf and his hands are tied up)
Take more than a couple seconds to think about this and you would realize that this statement is 100% false. False premise, false conclusion.
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Re: Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

Post by Steinherz » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:43 pm

Archimedes wrote:
Shizune never "practically rapes" anyone ever.
I said practically and used quotes for a reason. Tieing someone you never had sex with before or intimate at a chair without asking him, not being able to communicate with him (as she is deaf and his hands are tied up) and who also happens to have a serious hearth problem is at least strange. (i think that she didn't known about his heart arrythmia at that time, otherwise you could even call it careless).
Shizune is the Student Council president. She probably could have gotten a hold of Hisao's medical records. Especially since Shizune is smart, and likely curious at her boyfriend's condition.
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