Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

A forum for general discussion of the game: Open to all punters
Loonie
Posts: 250
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:00 pm
Location: Somewhere between Europe and the Balkans.

Re: Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

Post by Loonie » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:37 am

Heather, that concept is actually fairly close to how I perceive fictional work and characters (that once a work is released to the general public, it is no longer truly that of the author's and that at its core authorial intent matters less than perception of said work, even if it is still a factor). Although my own take on it is a lot less theory-based and far more comparable to say...parenting. You (the creator) raise your child (your work) for a long time perhaps. There's a lot of care, work and attention that goes into it, but eventually when they 'grow up' and mature you've got to let them go and stop fussing over them (release it as a finished product). At that point they are their own person and though of course you might still see them and they'll always be a part of you (since you are their creator), they ultimately belong to themselves now and not you as their creator. This parable works pretty well, since there are also dangers to releasing a work too soon (not polishing and editing it enough) and to having it get stuck in development hell (fussing over it as some parents still do over their 30 or 40 year-old sons and daughters).

That's my only main difference from what you described really - that for me a work and its characters don't quite belong to 'the public' (a term that I find a bit too nebulous really). They do exist within the public eye, sure (as much as any adult person always exists within the public eye to some extent), but at the end of the day they only belong to themselves. They are 'their own man/woman/entity' as strange as it sounds. I find this line of thinking a bit more comfortable, because if they belong to 'the public' then if said public votes that say...two characters, whom they ship dearly, should get together and have raunchy sex in said work's future, then surely that must always happen because it belongs to 'the public' fanbase and that is the will of its majority...yeah...please...no. :lol: This is why I prefer to think of works as belonging to themselves first and foremost.

Now this is just how I personally feel about fiction in general, but of course (and sometimes quite thankfully I might add, because it tethers me to reality) my mind doesn't let me off that easily. It always says: 'Okay, that's a very fine way of looking at fiction, but you do realize these stories and characters don't exist in our world, right? So why the heck are you thinking about them this damn much if they're not even your own creations?'And that's the point where I usually answer with: 'Well, because every work of fiction is in some way tethered to the author(s) that created it and that is a real person with experiences in this world.' Usually that's enough, but when you get a straightforward answer like Aura's it tends to send me spinning again. :P

But I guess, ultimately, it doesn't matter that much as far as fiction itself is considered. The main reason, why we read things and perceive fictional characters as 'real people' to a degree, isn't because we think exactly or even similarly to the author about them. It's moreso because our experiences and feelings (which are more often than not very different from that of the author to begin with) mirror that of those characters and thus we can relate to a degree. So to put it bluntly, it's rarely about what we think of fiction but rather how we feel about it. It's very hard to feel something for a character like Patrick Bateman from American Psycho (even though he's a brilliantly thought out character), but it is far easier to do so with someone like Hanako. Same applies to Rin...it's hard for most to feel as she does (and thus feel as if you understand her), but since she isn't a malicious or hateful person her brand of irrational logic is still at least moreso approachable. That is, of course, if people want to approach it beyond the surface observations of: 'she's just kooky/zany/silly etc.'

And on the topic of freedom...I've always found it funny that most people don't realize just how utterly painful 'absolute' freedom really can be. But I suppose that's because most people never get to be free for any significant duration of time, wether in real life or in their own minds. Rin's path actually demonstrates this pain and what it's about very well too...as it also demonstrates how to deal with that pain. *shrug* :)

User avatar
Weird Heather
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:57 am

Re: Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

Post by Weird Heather » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:40 pm

Loonie wrote:The main reason, why we read things and perceive fictional characters as 'real people' to a degree, isn't because we think exactly or even similarly to the author about them. It's moreso because our experiences and feelings (which are more often than not very different from that of the author to begin with) mirror that of those characters and thus we can relate to a degree. So to put it bluntly, it's rarely about what we think of fiction but rather how we feel about it. It's very hard to feel something for a character like Patrick Bateman from American Psycho (even though he's a brilliantly thought out character), but it is far easier to do so with someone like Hanako. Same applies to Rin...it's hard for most to feel as she does (and thus feel as if you understand her), but since she isn't a malicious or hateful person her brand of irrational logic is still at least moreso approachable. That is, of course, if people want to approach it beyond the surface observations of: 'she's just kooky/zany/silly etc.'
In a roundabout way, I think this thread has come right back to the original question, and I think you have it just right. People are more likely to "get" Rin on an emotional level if they have experiences similar to hers or know people like her. For those who don't automatically connect with her emotionally, perhaps detailed analysis of the text can help them find a way in. (I had a hard time connecting with Shizune and Misha from the start, so when I read Shizune's story, I slowed down and paid close attention to the details; that helped me to get closer to her, and I feel like I understand and appreciate her better as a result - I even came to like her.) I "get" Rin because I am a lot like her, but I tend to engage in ridiculously detailed analysis anyway because my educational background leads me in that direction. For me, that type of analysis enriches the reading process, but I can easily see how it might get tedious for others.
Jedoisallerfairequelquechose!

YZQ
Posts: 1290
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:21 am

Re: Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

Post by YZQ » Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:31 am

Like Shizune, Rin knows that she has an issue, i.e. she's not getting across her thoughts and ideas to other people. She doesn't like that, but doesn't know how to resolve the issue.
"Nothing is beneath man. Everything is permitted."

"...since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved. However, it is important above all to avoid being hated."

User avatar
Aura
>has heterochromia
Posts: 3286
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:21 am

Re: Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

Post by Aura » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:57 am

Loonie wrote:Or, considering Aura (Rin's writer) pretty much said a lot of her was pulled from random 4chan and internet patterns, I could be seriously overthinking this as usual. Either way, this explanation makes sense to me why I both can and can't understand Rin just fine.
Just for the record, this is bullshit. You've been dreaming or something.
<Aura> would you squeeze a warm PVC bottle between your thighs and call it "manaka-chan"
<Suriko> I would do it if it wouldn't be so hard to explain to my parents

Loonie
Posts: 250
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:00 pm
Location: Somewhere between Europe and the Balkans.

Re: Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

Post by Loonie » Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:17 pm

Aura wrote:
Loonie wrote:Or, considering Aura (Rin's writer) pretty much said a lot of her was pulled from random 4chan and internet patterns, I could be seriously overthinking this as usual. Either way, this explanation makes sense to me why I both can and can't understand Rin just fine.
Just for the record, this is bullshit. You've been dreaming or something.
Odd...still fair nuff since, like I said, I can't find a link to begin with.

Varin
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

Post by Varin » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:17 am

This is what really seems to strike me about Rin:
She isn't really that bad at communicating herself, ultimately. She tends to make at least enough sense to get by, and like she says in Act I "See? I'm not that hard to talk to." She can be blunt, and getting an answer out of her can require more of asking the right question than ought to be necessary, but she really does know how to communicate on a level that would be considered "normal". The problem, though, is that this isn't enough for her. What to anyone else would be considered the ordinary restraints of conversation seem to her to make conversation utterly pointless. If there's no word to match exactly the thing she's feeling, she says nothing at all, where the average person would just beat around the bush. So it's not that Rin can't communicate, so much as she has a ridiculously high standard for what could be considered "proper communication". To her, worthwhile communication is nothing short of perfect understanding, and because she can't do that through words, she seeks to encapsulate it in art. She only gains closure when she realizes that perfect communication is impossible, and being unable to achieve it is not a fault of hers.

User avatar
Xanatos
Posts: 5365
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:40 pm

Re: Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

Post by Xanatos » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:56 am

Varin wrote:This is what really seems to strike me about Rin:
She isn't really that bad at communicating herself, ultimately. She tends to make at least enough sense to get by, and like she says in Act I "See? I'm not that hard to talk to." She can be blunt, and getting an answer out of her can require more of asking the right question than ought to be necessary, but she really does know how to communicate on a level that would be considered "normal". The problem, though, is that this isn't enough for her. What to anyone else would be considered the ordinary restraints of conversation seem to her to make conversation utterly pointless. If there's no word to match exactly the thing she's feeling, she says nothing at all, where the average person would just beat around the bush. So it's not that Rin can't communicate, so much as she has a ridiculously high standard for what could be considered "proper communication". To her, worthwhile communication is nothing short of perfect understanding, and because she can't do that through words, she seeks to encapsulate it in art. She only gains closure when she realizes that perfect communication is impossible, and being unable to achieve it is not a fault of hers.
A neat theory except that isn't why she's into art, and art is an even more imperfect method of communication than words anyway.
<KeiichiO>: "I wonder what Misha's WAHAHA's sound like with a cock stuffed down her throat..."
<Ascension>: "I laughed, cried, vomited in my mouth a little, and even had time for marshmallows afterwards. Well played, Xanatos. Well played."
<KeiichiO>: "That's a beautiful response to chocolate."

User avatar
ZXNova
Posts: 154
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:46 pm
Location: Somewhere

Re: Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

Post by ZXNova » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:39 pm

Well, I believe the reason why people like Rin so much may be the fact that she isn't obvious, or easy to read. She's subtle, and hard to read. She's not your typical human being, she's... interesting. At least, that's how it is for me. Why no one understands her? I'm sure this was brought up before, but her cues are very subtle. Not easy to interpret, not very intuitive. And it's also the fact Rin doesn't understand herself. If she understood herself, then understanding her would become a whole lot easier, but would that be interesting at all? Her hard to understand personality is part of why we all like her.
The only way for you to understand someone is that they either understand him/herself, or their cues are just plain obvious. Hell, if you're that obvious there's no reason for you not to understand yourself. Haven't you seen or heard of the many ways people have tried to "find themselves"? In this case, Rin is trying to "find herself" through art, from which she hopes other people will understand her through her art. But how can we do that if you don't understand yourself?
How does one understand him/herself then? I would say through careful observation. You have to carefully observe yourself, see how you react in situations, etc. That takes time though. It'd be much more harder and frustrating for Rin too. Then finally at the end, she gets an idea of how she really is. That's the first step to figuring out yourself. In fact, she may have figured out herself already. She has an "idea" after all. (Rin's arc is one of those arcs where you may have to do over again to get a full understanding. I actually want to do it again.) This is at least, how I see it. Hope you understand what I mean, and I hope I didn't basically said the same thing as someone else.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Touhou guy here.
You cannot deny the cuteness of my avatar. If you try to deny it, your subconscious shall be devoured.
All of my yes.
By order of favorites: Rin > Lilly > Hanako > Shizune > Emi

User avatar
Xanatos
Posts: 5365
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:40 pm

Re: Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

Post by Xanatos » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:37 pm

ZXNova wrote:I hope I didn't basically said the same thing as someone else.
You kinda did but it's cool. :P
<KeiichiO>: "I wonder what Misha's WAHAHA's sound like with a cock stuffed down her throat..."
<Ascension>: "I laughed, cried, vomited in my mouth a little, and even had time for marshmallows afterwards. Well played, Xanatos. Well played."
<KeiichiO>: "That's a beautiful response to chocolate."

Loonie
Posts: 250
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:00 pm
Location: Somewhere between Europe and the Balkans.

Re: Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

Post by Loonie » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:21 pm

Xanatos wrote:
ZXNova wrote:I hope I didn't basically said the same thing as someone else.
You kinda did but it's cool. :P
Honestly, writing stuff here (or indeed anywhere online) is often not that much about original ideas (I don't consider mine to be that original at all, for example) or even communication, though it's nice when you succeed at that too and can be important, as in my misquote of Aura. But for me it's moreso just about organizing one's thoughts on a complicated subject and doing so in a public online place for others to see.

In that respect I wholly welcome people repeating the points made by others already in their own words. That, too, is interesting for me to read (namely how many times do the same points get brought up from different points of view and how does the emphasis differ between them).

So don't be afraid of saying unoriginal things. Just say 'em. :)

User avatar
ZXNova
Posts: 154
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:46 pm
Location: Somewhere

Re: Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

Post by ZXNova » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:09 am

Well ok, good to know. I guess when you see many of the same things basically said, you see some sort of pattern to how people commonly think, or possibly a good answer (or answers) to explain someone as complicated as Rin...
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Touhou guy here.
You cannot deny the cuteness of my avatar. If you try to deny it, your subconscious shall be devoured.
All of my yes.
By order of favorites: Rin > Lilly > Hanako > Shizune > Emi

Varin
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

Post by Varin » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:50 am

Xanatos wrote:
Varin wrote:This is what really seems to strike me about Rin:
She isn't really that bad at communicating herself, ultimately. She tends to make at least enough sense to get by, and like she says in Act I "See? I'm not that hard to talk to." She can be blunt, and getting an answer out of her can require more of asking the right question than ought to be necessary, but she really does know how to communicate on a level that would be considered "normal". The problem, though, is that this isn't enough for her. What to anyone else would be considered the ordinary restraints of conversation seem to her to make conversation utterly pointless. If there's no word to match exactly the thing she's feeling, she says nothing at all, where the average person would just beat around the bush. So it's not that Rin can't communicate, so much as she has a ridiculously high standard for what could be considered "proper communication". To her, worthwhile communication is nothing short of perfect understanding, and because she can't do that through words, she seeks to encapsulate it in art. She only gains closure when she realizes that perfect communication is impossible, and being unable to achieve it is not a fault of hers.
A neat theory except that isn't why she's into art, and art is an even more imperfect method of communication than words anyway.
I seem to recall her literally saying that that was why she was into art, and her entire good ending is a result of her realizing that it is an imperfect method of communication.

User avatar
Xanatos
Posts: 5365
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:40 pm

Re: Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

Post by Xanatos » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:16 pm

Varin wrote:
Xanatos wrote:
Varin wrote:This is what really seems to strike me about Rin:
She isn't really that bad at communicating herself, ultimately. She tends to make at least enough sense to get by, and like she says in Act I "See? I'm not that hard to talk to." She can be blunt, and getting an answer out of her can require more of asking the right question than ought to be necessary, but she really does know how to communicate on a level that would be considered "normal". The problem, though, is that this isn't enough for her. What to anyone else would be considered the ordinary restraints of conversation seem to her to make conversation utterly pointless. If there's no word to match exactly the thing she's feeling, she says nothing at all, where the average person would just beat around the bush. So it's not that Rin can't communicate, so much as she has a ridiculously high standard for what could be considered "proper communication". To her, worthwhile communication is nothing short of perfect understanding, and because she can't do that through words, she seeks to encapsulate it in art. She only gains closure when she realizes that perfect communication is impossible, and being unable to achieve it is not a fault of hers.
A neat theory except that isn't why she's into art, and art is an even more imperfect method of communication than words anyway.
I seem to recall her literally saying that that was why she was into art, and her entire good ending is a result of her realizing that it is an imperfect method of communication.
I seem to recall she's into art because she likes painting...And her good ending is a result of her realizing destroying herself for the sake of others is a really dumb idea. :lol:
<KeiichiO>: "I wonder what Misha's WAHAHA's sound like with a cock stuffed down her throat..."
<Ascension>: "I laughed, cried, vomited in my mouth a little, and even had time for marshmallows afterwards. Well played, Xanatos. Well played."
<KeiichiO>: "That's a beautiful response to chocolate."

Loonie
Posts: 250
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:00 pm
Location: Somewhere between Europe and the Balkans.

Re: Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

Post by Loonie » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:10 pm

I recall that she likes to paint, because it's the 'only thing she does properly' and as such has the highest chances of communicating her feelings to others. And by the time of the good ending it turns out not to be true. She had her exhibition and no one understood her, only asked her more questions.

So yeah, I'd say it's kinda both in the end. Truth was, she only wanted to communicate so she wouldn't feel alone. Turns out you don't have to be understood in order to not feel alone. Just have someone to come back to from under the rain.

Varin
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Why does it seems like no one understands Rin?

Post by Varin » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:31 pm

"So I started thinking that maybe I don't know what I'm feeling. Maybe it's me who's wrong. I thought those kinds of things. I thought that painting was enough because it felt that I at least did that right. That all that is inside of me could become a picture if I tried really hard. And it could. But it doesn't feel like it's enough any more. Because if no one else can see that, I will still be alone."

"Rin was desperate for someone to look at her paintings, and somehow see right through them into her soul, to understand her feelings..."


I don't really understand what is ambiguous about any of that. That is her most honest and verbose moment in the game, and it is the one in which she expresses her true motivation for painting, as flawed as it may be. Sure, she enjoys painting. But for most of the story, and with plenty of evidence, she was trying and failing to use it as a vehicle for expressing her emotions to other people.

Post Reply