It's the choices, dummy

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Atario
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It's the choices, dummy

Post by Atario » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:51 pm

I think most people misinterpret the lessons the game is trying to teach. Asserted: the choices you make to get good/neutral/bad endings are what constitute the message.
  • Emi
    Lesson: Consider the help and advice of others.
    Ignoring Mutou, Misha, and/or Meiko pushes you toward the bad ending; listening to them pushes you toward the good.
  • Rin
    Lesson: Support is more important than understanding.
    Choices that emphasize or demand understanding her (on the part of yourself or others) over supporting her regardless push you toward the bad or neutral endings.
  • Shizune
    Lesson: Don't cheat.
    Pretty obvious. "Comforting" Misha bad; refraining good.
  • Lilly
    Lesson: Be open and honest.
    Hiding anything gives you the bad ending; being open and honest gives the good.
  • Hanako
    Lesson: Be available (but don't overdo it).
    This may be my most controversial assessment (everyone seems to think it's all about "white knighting"). Choosing to "call it a day" after Lilly leaves — abandoning Hanako when she needs you most — is what gives the bad ending, whereas going out with her does not. Choosing to check up on her in her room gives the neutral ending, whereas choosing to give her space gives the good. There's also a minor lesson as well about accepting the advice of others as in Emi's route (giving Hanako space is couched as listening to Lilly's advice, whereas checking up on Hanako is couched as ignoring Lilly's advice).
Of course there are echoes of these lessons elsewhere in the routes, e.g. Lilly's own lack of forthrightness (about her family situation and the summons to Scotland and her feelings about all that stuff) go a long way toward instigating the conflict in her route, reinforcing the message of openness and honesty.
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wazuzu
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Re: It's the choices, dummy

Post by wazuzu » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:03 pm

Funny conclusions you got there, especially about Shizune. She never gives half a fudge about Hisao cheating, but comforting Misha makes Misha stark raving mad.
Maybe the lesson is that you may need to refrain from forced feelings, and be open, honest and understanding.

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Atario
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Re: It's the choices, dummy

Post by Atario » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:06 pm

wazuzu wrote:Funny conclusions you got there
Ooo, con-TROV-ur-see!
wazuzu wrote:Shizune. She never gives half a fudge about Hisao cheating
How could she? She never finds out.
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wazuzu
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Re: It's the choices, dummy

Post by wazuzu » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:09 pm

Atario wrote:How could she? She never finds out.
Do you give a fudge about things you don't know?

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Atario
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Re: It's the choices, dummy

Post by Atario » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:11 pm

wazuzu wrote:Do you give a fudge about things you don't know?
What's your point?

I'm saying cheating on her gives the bad end and refraining gives the good. Therefore that's the lesson.
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wazuzu
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Re: It's the choices, dummy

Post by wazuzu » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:12 pm

Correlation does not equal causation.
It's not cheating that gives you bad ending, but Misha distancing herself from both Hisao and Shizune.

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Re: It's the choices, dummy

Post by Oddball » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:36 pm

The lesson Shizune's path teaches you is that at the end of the year, your girlfriend is going to go her own way anyway, so you might as well sleep with her best friend when you get the chance.
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Atario
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Re: It's the choices, dummy

Post by Atario » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:40 pm

wazuzu wrote:It's not cheating that gives you bad ending, but Misha distancing herself from both Hisao and Shizune.
But that distance is a result of guilty feelings over that betrayal.
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Steinherz
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Re: It's the choices, dummy

Post by Steinherz » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:53 pm

Oddball wrote:The lesson Shizune's path teaches you is that at the end of the year, your girlfriend is going to go her own way anyway, so you might as well sleep with her best friend when you get the chance.
PFFFT
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But yeah, Shizune's bad end has nothing to due with Hisao cheating on her with Misha. Shizune never finds out.
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Re: It's the choices, dummy

Post by Atario » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:55 pm

Steinherz wrote:But yeah, Shizune's bad end has nothing to due with Hisao cheating on her with Misha. Shizune never finds out.
Why does she need to find out for it to have an effect?
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wazuzu
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Re: It's the choices, dummy

Post by wazuzu » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:59 pm

It's not the result of guilty feelings after sleeping with Hisao, it's a result of overall tension in their relationship. And it does not relate with Shizune or cheating at all. Hisao could do Emi in the storage shed all day long, but if Misha loses her cool - that's the bad end. There's an influence that sex act had on her tension, but that was the top of the iceberg.

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Re: It's the choices, dummy

Post by Xanatos » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:50 pm

...Is this some sort of revelation? Yeah, the choices are important to the message of the route. Did people not know this? :lol:

And Shizune's route has next to nothing to do with the cheating. That's just there for the sake of a dialogue option.
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Re: It's the choices, dummy

Post by OtakuNinja » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:04 pm

Normally I wouldn't even read this thread, but I'm glad I did. it was really entertaining. x'D
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Atario
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Re: It's the choices, dummy

Post by Atario » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:16 pm

Xanatos wrote:Is this some sort of revelation? Yeah, the choices are important to the message of the route. Did people not know this?
You would think so, from the by-now standard received wisdom that Hanako's lesson is "don't be a white knight".
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Re: It's the choices, dummy

Post by Sea » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:20 pm

OtakuNinja wrote:Normally I wouldn't even read this thread, but I'm glad I did. it was really entertaining. x'D
mmm, i need to find Stein's cache of laughing gifs for future use
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