Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

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Steinherz
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Re: Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

Post by Steinherz » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:08 pm

I look away from the forums for 20 minutes, come back to this:
Hans PK wrote:
Dream wrote:Replying to a post with "Holy shit, is that a sore spot for you or something?" and dismissals like "Ranting and raving for ranting and raving's sake? :lol:" Sure as hell are rude and uncalled for comments as well, so according to your logic i am perfectly justified in treating you as scum. I don't see why you get so worked up at someone calling you on bullshit, since if you hadn't dimissed a post in such a rash manner no one would have targeted you for a psychiatrict report.
In your mind, you misinterpreted his comment as being in support of/ a part of some sort of virgin fetish, so to you the logical response was your jumping on him like a man in the prison showers after a few years in solitary? Not only does it make you look like an ass, but now that you've been shown to be wildly off-target with your so-called "psychiatrict report" you go on the defensive and further insult him, as well as making outlandish assumptions about his logic that could not easily or realistically be inferred by what he has written and implying that he's the one who's getting worked up, all the while stating far worse things than he has. Not okay. Please try to avoid that in the future, and I would advise you to be not so dismissive of the power of reasoning as could be implied by your sig, as you seem to be needing more of it. I do not agree with the OP, nor do I pretend to, but tearing people apart purely for the sake of tearing people apart is just a part of what makes the world go to shit.
^^^
This.

Also, when did I attack someone? My "Holy shit, is that a sore spot for you or something?" is and was meant as a mildly joking/pointing out the obvious. Like if someone just punched a wall in a very pissed-off manner and someone goes "You angry man?". Ergo Dream, you're digging yourself into a hole quicker than you can pull yourself up.

Eh, whatever. I'm done now. Keep on acting like I'm scum if it makes you feel better about yourself. It's cool, live and let live is my viewpoint. Maybe you should learn that method?
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Hans PK
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Re: Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

Post by Hans PK » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:17 pm

I'll stop while I'm ahead. Tempers flared; opinions were as opinions are: strange and resistant to outside influence. I've already stated everything that I have to say.
What is there left to say?

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Re: Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

Post by Dream » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:20 pm

This tangent is awesome.

If it was intended as a joke, i feel it was distasteful and not that funny either. Even if the subject matter of the post you mocked wasn't emotionally charged for me i'd still be reacting this way, i think. I fail to see anything in Kendrix's original post that would resemble an "angry, spiteful rant" and in fact i think it's far better in quality and construction than the vast majority of what is posted here daily. On the contrary it's the lazy one-line snarks which i believe the internet could do without. I do not believe that all members of a social group belong to it's extremist versions. Whether it was a reaction or attack doesn't fundamentally change the issues that brought me to look down on him. It is true that i'm less interested in communicating my disgust with his posting and the reasons for said disgust rather than any discussion with the person, but in my experience people like that rarely learn, so it's just a waste of resources.

And opinions are generally formed by arguments and data, at least among the scholarly minded. I don't intend to declare myself one although i do intend to live by that ideal.
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Re: Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

Post by ProfAllister » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:22 pm

I think we need a little separation of terms and ideas here.

Re: the virginity fetish - Technically we mean sexual quirk, since a fetish is a clinical condition by which you are incapable of completing the sexual act without its presence (e.g., a man who simply cannot get an erection if the girl isn't wearing a maid outfit). In common discussion, however, people use the term "fetish," and everyone knows what they mean, except for pedants. The main ideas behind this quirk were broken down earlier as follows:
- The OP considers bleeding girls sexy.
- The OP likes the idea of a girl being in pain at first and getting turned on later.
- The OP likes girls who don't have experience or dislikes girls who do have experience.
The bleeding bit fits the standard concept of a sexual quirk - some people find it sexy, others are disgusted, and still others are "whatever, man."
The "in pain at first, then turned on later" is (potentially) a little problematic, but we'll be getting to that.
The "girls who don't have experience" has similar potential for being problematic, and, when not problematic, betrays the ideas of someone who hasn't had much practical experience of sex. Like any other physical activity, experience makes one perform better. There are a LOT of "rookie mistakes" that can be done during sex, and most of those pretty much instantly kill any further enjoyment.

Why are those latter two problematic? Because, while they may appear elsewhere, they are most prominently featured in stories that include rape. And while rape fantasies are vastly preferable to actual rape, it's still not exactly kosher.

And, as I mentioned in my first post, those first two aspects are related to stereotypes of virginity. While those results often appear when the hymen is intact, they are not necessarily present. Similarly, a broken hymen doesn't necessarily mean a non-virgin.

For the latter? Porn and erotica often have one recurring theme in all flavors - experience doesn't matter. Every character is an instinctual sex god. Even in Hanako's H-scene, (almost) undisputed as the least pleasant of them, it's heavily implied that Hanako reached orgasm. As many people have been disappointed to learn in their early sexual experiences, it's not easy for both parties to reach orgasm, especially if one or both are inexperienced. Everywhere else, they may be virgins, but when it gets to the sexytimes, they're replaced by professional porn actors, who know what they're doing far better than you'd care to know.

Re: Categorically ignoring stories because of (unfounded) allegations that a girl might not be a virgin - This is a lot less defensible, and really what brought out my reaction. I mean, these were weak allegations - "Emi had a boyfriend before Hisao, so clearly she's a dirty filthy slutwhore." (I'd make a joke about how it's expected that a fan of Lilly and Hanako would be so shallow, but this is a serious discussion.) I understand that people have a limited amount of time each day and can only do so much, but that just brings in another aspect of this whole discussion - it's been pretty solidly established that playing KS for the H scenes is missing the point on several levels (and also a waste of your time in comparison to other games that give more (and more professional quality) H-scenes in less time).

And this also touches on the elephant in the room - the value of virginity. In many cultures, virginity is a very precious thing. There are places where a virgin cannot be executed (which sometimes leads to the unfortunate practice of one of the prison wardens "marrying" the virgins on death row). And it's true. In many ways, virginity is a very precious and beautiful thing. But that becomes a bad thing if it becomes the measure of a woman's worth. If a woman is "ruined for marriage" by losing her virginity, that's a problem.

The proper place of virginity is very much like a first kiss. There is definitely something meaningful behind it, and it makes a statement when someone saves it for the right person. But it's just a statement. Any right-thinking individual would be disgusted by a man who throws a woman away as a wanton trollop because she had kissed another man several years ago. It's remarkable when someone doesn't kiss anyone until they have the right person, but there's no shame for the woman who kissed someone she thought she loved, but now deeply regrets it. And, at the same time, there is still (generally) a distaste for the person who kisses (in a romantic sense) loosely and casually - because it cheapens the meaning and value of the action. But most people agree that there's an acceptable threshold somewhere between "never kissing ever" and "kissing (romantically) with no greater meaning than a handshake."

And, as a side note, sarcasm and tone doesn't carry well on the internet. Unless you have an established relationship with someone, steer clear of phrases that can make you sound like an asshole. Or buffer them heavily with obvious smileys and/or reaction images.
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Qchan
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Re: Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

Post by Qchan » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:26 pm

This thread went wrong when one jack ass decided to pick a fight with a pacific rim robot.

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Re: Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

Post by Oddball » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:36 pm

Qchan wrote:This thread went wrong when one jack ass decided to pick a fight with a pacific rim robot.
This thread went wrong when the first person posted it. :roll:
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Re: Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

Post by Qchan » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:40 pm

Oddball wrote:
Qchan wrote:This thread went wrong when one jack ass decided to pick a fight with a pacific rim robot.
This thread went wrong when the first person posted it. :roll:
Good point. It still yielded quite a few laughs, Thanks to aura and stein.

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Re: Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

Post by Umber » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:48 pm

Oddball wrote:This thread went wrong when the first person posted it.
Agreed. A little better than Fyn's threads, though.
ProfAllister wrote: And as a side note, sarcasm and tone don't carry well on the internet. Unless you have an established relationship with someone, steer clear of phrases that can make you sound like an asshole. Or buffer them heavily with obvious smileys and/or reaction images.
Side note supported. Inflection is nearly non-existent on the internet.
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Re: Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

Post by Steinherz » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:02 pm

Qchan wrote:This thread went wrong when one jack ass decided to pick a fight with a pacific rim robot.
Image
I'm dieing over here :lol:
Umber wrote:
ProfAllister wrote: And as a side note, sarcasm and tone don't carry well on the internet. Unless you have an established relationship with someone, steer clear of phrases that can make you sound like an asshole. Or buffer them heavily with obvious smileys and/or reaction images.
Side note supported. Inflection is nearly non-existent on the internet.
Side note supported and agreed upon. Which is why I'm settling for these if I'm joking/sarcastic:
Image
Image
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Re: Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

Post by SpecimenSix » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:14 pm

Those are all very good points Prof, but first
Dream wrote:I fail to see anything in Kendrix's original post that would resemble an "angry, spiteful rant" and in fact i think it's far better in quality and construction than the vast majority of what is posted here daily.
Not to shift gears but when you post malicious insults that prove no insight to the topic at hand that proves only to worsen the very problems you're complaining about. As much as I enjoy getting a laugh out of your angry posts, there's always PMs for a reason. You do have some good insight on plenty of topics here so when you make a point to insult someone you're just as bad as the "scum" you've mentioned.

And where was I again? Oh yea.
ProfAllister wrote:The proper place of virginity is very much like a first kiss. There is definitely something meaningful behind it, and it makes a statement when someone saves it for the right person. But it's just a statement. Any right-thinking individual would be disgusted by a man who throws a woman away as a wanton trollop because she had kissed another man several years ago. It's remarkable when someone doesn't kiss anyone until they have the right person, but there's no shame for the woman who kissed someone she thought she loved, but now deeply regrets it. And, at the same time, there is still (generally) a distaste for the person who kisses (in a romantic sense) loosely and casually - because it cheapens the meaning and value of the action. But most people agree that there's an acceptable threshold somewhere between "never kissing ever" and "kissing (romantically) with no greater meaning than a handshake."
I completely agree with you that viewing a woman's worth based on how many men, or women, she's been with is a very flawed line of thought. Especially when, more often than not, a man has been with a lot of women he's considered a stud. Truthfully I find being very "loose" an unattractive quality for both men and women. That's not to say it makes me think any less of them, hell I too have been into the whole "casual" thing for awhile after my last serious relationship, so I'm well aware of how that reflects on myself. I wholeheartedly agree with you though that virginity is just that, a statement. And that statement can mean anything to anyone really. Some view sex as much more intimate than others -shocker I know- so I can sort of understand where the desire for a virgin comes from. I may not have that quirk, but I don't really think there's any problem with that line of thought unless they berate others who aren't virgins. Like some asshole that comes to my college campus and screams at students walking by about not having pre-marital sex when he says himself that he has done it too. But that's a bit of an extreme, and I think most people that are more reserved and intimate about sex are a lot more respectful than that and even OP here.

I hope that made sense. I had a much clearer thought before I hit reply, I guess working 13 hours straight will do that to you. :lol:
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Re: Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

Post by Markus Ramikin » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:04 am

What is it about this topic that brings out all this vitriol?
Dream wrote:People might have gone a bit too far in bashing a OP that seems more childish than malicious but it is a pretty heinous mindset so it can't be helped.
It sure could be helped - with a little more maturity. If people have been acting as "awesome" as you've been praising them. But as it is, all this seems pretty silly; if I were inclined towards unwarranted psych-reports, I'd suspect people are either in denial about something or carrying some inexplicable sore spots.

So the guy prefers to play a game with a virgin heroine. Good for him, even if you don't share the preference. Answer his question (if you can be bothered) and move on. Live and let live.

Sure, some of what he said does imply lack of experience and knowledge, and there was room for the insightful things that some of the responses contained (ProfAlister delivers), but it could have been done without all the bashing.
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Re: Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

Post by Dream » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:19 am

Markus Ramikin wrote:What is it about this topic that brings out all this vitriol?

So the guy prefers to play a game with a virgin heroine. Good for him, even if you don't share the preference. He wasn't bashing real life non-virgins and claiming they are worse in some objective sense and should be looked down on; he was just admitting his personal preference in hopes that you'd help him towards getting the gameplay experience that he's looking for. Answer his question (if you can be bothered) and move on. Live and let live.
A couple of bad-tempered posts regarding a tangent.

Regarding the second paragraph, it is by itself a valid argument and one many people would be inclined to agree to (i'm sure many already do in fact), but for better or worse this interest, to put it in a way, in virgins is framed in a social, psychological and historical context (Prof Allister put it much better than i could hope to). Human thoughts don't take place nor generate in a vacuum and while OP might not have bashed any real-life person (at least not in this thread) it doesn't change the fact that it could indicate an unhealthy attitude towards women, nor does it change the fact that some people do unfortunately hold such reprehensible or objectifying attitudes. OP might not be part of the problem but unfortunately part of the mindset he presented in this thread is.
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Re: Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

Post by Loonie » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:25 am

*facedesk* And I had such high hopes for this topic after weeks of it going remarkably well. No such luck I guess. I suppose Oddball's statement was right after all. The OP was poorly worded to begin with and it doesn't take much for people to go up in arms about it afterwards.

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Re: Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

Post by Hans PK » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:52 am

Loonie wrote:*facedesk* And I had such high hopes for this topic after weeks of it going remarkably well. No such luck I guess. I suppose Oddball's statement was right after all. The OP was poorly worded to begin with and it doesn't take much for people to go up in arms about it afterwards.
Having high hopes about something is only asking for pain, and the sentiment of desiring women to be chaste before the MC's intervention behind it is something that should have been known to be considered despicable and is probably what doomed the OP; more so than the wording, at least. There are only so many ways for one to say, "The only good heroines are virgins," and none of them are so wrong as the feeling itself, which did unfortunately provoke some... mild overreaction.
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Re: Katawa Shoujo Virgin heroine?

Post by Loonie » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:16 am

Hans PK wrote:Having high hopes about something is only asking for pain, and the sentiment of desiring women to be chaste before the MC's intervention behind it is something that should have been known to be considered despicable and is probably what doomed the OP, moreso than the wording, at least. There are only so many ways for one to say, "The only good heroines are virgins," and none of them are so wrong as the feeling itself, which did unfortunately provoke some... mild overreaction.
Let's take a look at the quote, that he considered 'close to his reasons' for this:
- The OP considers bleeding girls sexy.
- The OP likes the idea of a girl being in pain at first and getting turned on later.
- The OP likes girls who don't have experience or dislikes girls who do have experience.
Nowhere in there (or before that) do you see him state that "The only good heroines are virgins." 'Butbutbutbut...' I hear you say: '...it is heavily *implied*!' Sorry, but that does not equal it. Nowhere. That was all an invention of every other person who had to tell the OP how they REALLY felt about this. But his wording was incredibly simplistic and came across as childish, so one automatically gets the image of a teenager (even if we have no way of knowing if that really is the case). And nowhere in anything ProfAllister or Dream posted do I see any proof or solid reason to believe that the OP applies this rationale to women IRL as well or that he even so much as influences other people with it. For all we know he's happily married with kids and this is just his fantasy vacation that he takes from time to time to keep his urges in check.

But never mind that possibility. Let's label this mindset as actively contributing to things like women being devalued IRL, because if he said it on the internet it must obviously translate to everything he does in real life. :roll: Life doesn't work that way. People don't show their 'true colors' on the internet even fucking remotely. If anything people LIE over the internet moreso than they tell the truth (usually to themselves). My honest belief is that the OP is intimidated by women, but these tastes are just his way of compensating for it and are the one way in which he can reverse the tables - so he indulges in it. So I really doubt he'd demand something like this of women IRL - he'd be too damn scared of their reaction to it - and I doubt that he influences other people with this mindset that much either, because honestly...I doubt most would value his opinion that much.

Great. Now I'm assuming shit about the OP as well, when I have no more proof to go on than his detractors. I guess him coming back would provide more clarification for us all, but on the other hand it'd also make this thread explode. So in a way I'm happy to just leave it as it is and call the whole thing having gone 'better than most' so far. So I guess it hasn't dissapointed me entirely, even if it did a bit. If this kind of thread popped up on any forum other than this one, I'd imagine that by this point it'd have 20+ pages of hyperbole/mysoginy/feminism/social justice and people telling others what's right and wrong already. As it is, I'm happy to bow out of it at this point and see where it goes, if indeed it should go anywhere at all.

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