If Hanako's scars looked like this...

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muliebrity
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If Hanako's scars looked like this...

Post by muliebrity » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:11 am

An exchange in the Favorite Artwork thread got me wondering. Hanako's scars don't quite represent the way severe burn scars really look in real life, and I have to wonder how a perfectly realistic representation would effect the way people see her as a character and as a love interest in the story.

The image I'm linking below is of how burn scars look after extensive skin graft treatment and recuperation. If Hanako's scars looked like this (I recommend you don't scroll down, some of those images are pretty horrifying): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... ure/F0002/ (which is almost a best-case scenario) would that bother you?
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Re: If Hanako's scars looked like this...

Post by win746 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:23 am

Resolution on 1920 x 1080, I don't even get a chance to not scroll down, as you stated it is pretty horrifying.

The first two picture, which is "Excellent result after maturation of split-skin graft" looks fine to me, but I have no word for the rest of the pictures. I think thats all I can say.
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Re: If Hanako's scars looked like this...

Post by Guest Poster » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:25 am

Those pictures make me wonder if Hanako did end up getting skin grafts after all and what we see of her is simply the result of the doctors patching her up as best as they could.

I think Hanako's scars would genuinely shock most people, though I suspect as one spends enough time around her he'll eventually desensitize to them...like most doctors end up being desensitized to blood and ugly wounds that would gross out many common folks.

Nowhere in the game is Hanako actually called pretty or beautiful. She's called cute, Hisao says she has beautiful hair, a dazzling smile and a really nice figure and the sight of her without clothes is still enough to make him sleep with her, but when she notes she isn't pretty like Lilly, Hisao doesn't deny this. Instead, he says he thinks she's a wonderful person despite the damaged state of her body. That's pretty indicative of the fact that in-game, Hanako's scarring is considered to be a pretty shocking sight.
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Re: If Hanako's scars looked like this...

Post by muliebrity » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:37 am

win746 wrote:Resolution on 1920 x 1080, I don't even get a chance to not scroll down, as you stated it is pretty horrifying.
Sorry, I would have direct linked, but NCBI doesn't allow that. I guess my advice would be don't look down.
Guest Poster wrote:Those pictures make me wonder if Hanako did end up getting skin grafts after all and what we see of her is simply the result of the doctors patching her up as best as they could.
I think this would have to be the case. I agree with win746 that the best case scenario doesn't look that bad, really, but still something I would have as much of a complex about as Hanako does about her scars.
I think Hanako's scars would genuinely shock most people, though I suspect as one spends enough time around her he'll eventually desensitize to them...like most doctors end up being desensitized to blood and ugly wounds that would gross out many common folks.
This is part of what motivated me to make this topic. I have seen people balk at the idea that Hanako's condition is such a disability, and seen others talking like all it takes to render burn scars really is some red marks, but the reality is actually much more difficult to face without some sort of grimace, at least at first.
That's pretty indicative of the fact that in-game, Hanako's scarring is considered to be a pretty shocking sight.
I think that this context makes a lot of Hisao's more questionable actions seem more tender and caring, given that it's something so irrelevant to him that he's more concerned with how much he wants her than how she looks.
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Re: If Hanako's scars looked like this...

Post by Auratus » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:39 am

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Re: If Hanako's scars looked like this...

Post by pandaphil » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:02 am

Their technique of blacking out the eyes certainly doesn't help. Ugh. Zombie face anyone?

I tend to agree, the first two photos don't seem too horrible. They're pretty much what I visualize Hanako to be like. I can imagine doctors faced with a scarred 8 year old girl who's just lost her home and family going above and beyond the call of duty to help restore her looks the best they can.

In any case, love is more than physical beauty. Its whats inside that counts.*


*edited to be a bit more coherent.
Last edited by pandaphil on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: If Hanako's scars looked like this...

Post by win746 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:13 am

pandaphil wrote:Their technique the page uses of blacking out the eyes certainly don't help.

I tend to agree, the first two photos don't seem too horrible. They're pretty much what I imagine. I can see doctors faced with a scarred 8 year old who's just lost her home and family going above and beyond the call of duty to help restore her looks the best they can.

In any case, love is more than about physical beauty. Its whats inside that counts.
^ This. I agree on the love part. As for the blacked out eyes, since I just woke up and checked the forums, I thought the lady lost her eyes or was just a demon or something, I got freaked out a bit. :|
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Re: If Hanako's scars looked like this...

Post by BlackWaltzTheThird » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:24 am

pandaphil wrote:Their technique the page uses of blacking out the eyes certainly don't help
You can say that again.

Anyway, the majority of those images seem to be relatively fresh burn injuries, or the unhealed results of surgery to repair said injuries. The only ones I believe to be indicative of the scarring Hanako may possess would be 0002 and 0005. Both state they are maturely healed, which suggests a significant period of healing, comparable to Hanako's 10 years.

It would be worth trying to view the story of Safari Kimanzi, a Kenyan boy who suffered severely disfiguring burns as a baby and was operated on by Australian doctors over a period of 8 years to repair his disfigured body. I'm not sure if other countries have access to the television programme RPA, but Safari's story was documented extensively on that. You can see the significant changes that time and good surgery can make. Try this link to watch the "where are they now" episode that caught up with him after his surgeries: http://catchup.ninemsn.com/rpawherearet ... /episode-1
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Re: If Hanako's scars looked like this...

Post by Dream » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:37 am

Yeah, the black eyes are certainly freaky.

Aside from Guest poster and BlackWaltz's contributions, it should also be pointed out that Hanako seems to have second degree burns rather than third degree ones. Also, burn scars seem to be the kind of scars whose nature changes a lot depending on the particular cirscumtances in which the subject got burned. Even then, Hanako was shielded by her mother.

It is true that some people balk at the idea that Hanako's burns are that severe, but a lot of people in this forum are... Well, you guys already know my opinion.

When it comes to illustration, it is true very very few people render the burn scars correctly, but to be fair burn scars are a very rare thing to draw and i don't really expect fan-artists to use more elaborated or professional steps of illustration like researching references or thumbnail/preliminary sketches.
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Re: If Hanako's scars looked like this...

Post by Guest Poster » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:45 am

I believe the devs mentioned Hanako can feel sensations in some of her burned areas and is numb in others, meaning she definitely has her share of third-degree burns.
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Re: If Hanako's scars looked like this...

Post by muliebrity » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:59 am

pandaphil wrote:Their technique of blacking out the eyes certainly doesn't help.
I hadn't even thought of that. I guess it is offputting. It is more stupid than creepy, though, if you have scars like that, no one is going to have trouble recognizing you if they'd never seen your eyes.
win746 wrote:I got freaked out a bit. :|
Didn't mean to freak you out, honest.
BlackWaltzTheThird wrote:Anyway, the majority of those images seem to be relatively fresh burn injuries, or the unhealed results of surgery to repair said injuries. The only ones I believe to be indicative of the scarring Hanako may possess would be 0002 and 0005. Both state they are maturely healed, which suggests a significant period of healing, comparable to Hanako's 10 years.
Well, yeah, I wasn't talking about any one of them but the one I linked directly (0002). That's exactly what I'm referring to.
I'm not sure if other countries have access to the television programme RPA
Sadly, it tells me I can't gain access outside Australia. Worth trying to find another way?
Dream wrote:Aside from Guest poster and BlackWaltz's contributions, it should also be pointed out that Hanako seems to have second degree burns rather than third degree ones.
What are you basing that on? Regardless, there's scarring and skin contracture with second degree burns as well as third, the difference is in the depth of the lesion, and the scarring tends to be as bad either way.
Hanako was shielded by her mother.
Yeah, but there's only so much one can do about fire. I think that Guest Poster is right, the scars would probably be a little unsettling if rendered realistically.
When it comes to illustration, it is true very very few people render the burn scars correctly, but to be fair burn scars are a very rare thing to draw and i don't really expect fan-artists to use more elaborated or professional steps of illustration like researching references or thumbnail/preliminary sketches.
While I don't want to go too off topic, I have to say this much: this is the single worst habit of any amateur artist. Too many people seem to think they can just guess at how to depict various objects, just like magic. This is what holds so many aspiring artists back. They only stand to gain from referring to reference, there's nothing stopping them and it has nothing to do with being professional.
Guest Poster wrote:I believe the devs mentioned Hanako can feel sensations in some of her burned areas and is numb in others, meaning she definitely has her share of third-degree burns.
That's a good point. For those who don't know, a second degree burn is one that hasn't penetrated the skin all the way to the muscle, bone and sinew underneath. A third degree burn has burned straight through the skin, taking all nerve endings with it. Scarring is, according to the studies I've been able to find, relatively similar post-treatment for either one assuming amputation wasn't necessary.
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Re: If Hanako's scars looked like this...

Post by Dream » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:20 am

What are you basing that on? Regardless, there's scarring and skin contracture with second degree burns as well as third, the difference is in the depth of the lesion, and the scarring tends to be as bad either way.
I'm not very sure if i'm remembering correctly, but i think Cpl_Crud said something like that in the "Ask" thread, i'm quite probably wrong though. In any case i admit i don't know much about burn scars so i wouldn't be able to say regarding the second and third degree burns, but it does seem that, in the aesthethic aspect, it doesn't really make much of a difference for the subject or her skin.
Yeah, but there's only so much one can do about fire. I think that Guest Poster is right, the scars would probably be a little unsettling if rendered realistically.
Most certainly, it's just that in my experience when this topic comes up some people say that none of Hanako's fans would like her or stand to look at her if her scars were rendered realistically, which i feel is a bit of an hyperbole. They would certainly be shocking or jarring, but Hanako's not the Phantom of the Opera :lol:
While I don't want to go too off topic, I have to say this much: this is the single worst habit of any amateur artist. Too many people seem to think they can just guess at how to depict various objects, just like magic. This is what holds so many aspiring artists back. They only stand to gain from referring to reference, there's nothing stopping them and it has nothing to do with being professional.
Definitively agreed. Drawing from references (and similars like drawing still-life or observing/drawing the world) are sadly as vital as they are underrated by amateur artists, and some internet cultures and misconceptions about art don't exactly help either. Of course when they're amateurs they probably have to focus on things a bit more basic than that but one should try to get onto use of references as early as possible, a good habit has never killed anyone after all. By the way, what i meant by professionalism is more a localized matter regarding the KS forums, since the fan-art section is also intended for people who want to have fun or an expression of their fandom throught the creation of something, with the technical quality and effort put into it only as a secondary concern.

By the way, i don't think there's ever any specification about Hanako's burns in the VN itself, is there?
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Re: If Hanako's scars looked like this...

Post by Oddball » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:28 am

Most of those scars in the link seem rather fresh. There's a lot of redness there. While it's possible to stay discolored like that for a long time, usually the skin goes back to a more normal fleshtone. Like in the game,Hisao says that Hanako's scars aren't even that notice from farther away. It's when you get close to them that they stick out.
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Re: If Hanako's scars looked like this...

Post by PlayerNo97 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:25 pm

My grandmother had a red scar like those after she drop boiling water over her stomach, fortunately after some time it disappeared.

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Re: If Hanako's scars looked like this...

Post by pandaphil » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:28 pm

I seriously doubt theres any way I could be turned off to Hanako, even if they were worse.

Peoples reactions to her is another indication that they're probably worse than the illustrations let on. The way students and even teachers treated her when she was young. i.e. recoiling from her rather than feeling sympathy, to the point that shes been emotionally hurt her entire life, for example. I suspect it was probably at lot worse then though, since she's likely healed somewhat over the years.

I actually made her a bit worse in my current fic. Speculating that she was missing parts of her right ear due to fire damage. And if you think about it, its really quite lucky she even has hair on the right side of her head.
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