Could you?...In real life?

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0rac1eF0rk
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Re: Could you?...In real life?

Post by 0rac1eF0rk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:37 pm

Oddball wrote:
At least that's what I would have done in that situation.
Are you an incredibly traumatized and badly scared orphan that's been picked on, insulted, and bullied most of your life until you've reached the point where you figured you're worth slightly less than pond scum?

If you answered no, then what you would have done in that situation is irrelevant. ... UNLESS you were trying to say you wouldn't have done what HISAO did. In that case you're just saying you wouldn't have sex with somebody you're already good friends with, WANT to have a relationship with, and who has purposely led you to her room with the intent of stripping naked and having sex with you.

And while it's possible you might refuse to have sex with somebody that you want to have sex with and somebody that apparently wants to have sex with you, I somehow have my doubts.
I meant I wouldn't do what Hisao did, but I don't even like brushing up against someone I'm in that sort of relationship with, so getting inside them would be the equivelant of jumping into a large shark's mouth for me.

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Xanatos
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Re: Could you?...In real life?

Post by Xanatos » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:58 pm

0rac1eF0rk wrote:
Xanatos wrote: Go read Banryu's last post and you'll see why that wouldn't work out. Good job hating somebody for being traumatized, by the way...

Nice use of "profane" too. Seeing as there's nothing at all profane about what happened, I have to assume you don't know what it means... :? Remind me, when exactly did sex become profane? I mean, I guess if you're using it in a religious sense but then it's quite irrelevant anyway...
Reasoning is to trauma as doughnut bakeries are to immigrants.
I had read that post and changed the text before posting, and came up with a possible backup. I'm sure you had read that? Mind you, based on your explanation, the term "erotic" wouldn't be more suiting. Using sexual would be appropriate, however it wouldn't meet my requirements.
Well, her reasoning is inextricably linked to and caused by her trauma, so you are basically hating her for being traumatized...

And "sexual" would work there, yes. :P
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0rac1eF0rk
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Re: Could you?...In real life?

Post by 0rac1eF0rk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:07 pm

Xanatos wrote: Well, her reasoning is inextricably linked to and caused by her trauma, so you are basically hating her for being traumatized...

And "sexual" would work there, yes. :P
Maybe so, but it's not directly because she's traumatized. There were alternatives to what happened behind closed doors. None come to mind, but with thought, there are.

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Re: Could you?...In real life?

Post by YZQ » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:22 pm

Dream wrote:
pandaphil wrote:
YZQ wrote:For me, I'll probably go with "Hanako, meet the Internet. Internet, meet Hanako." I would have thought that Hanako would take to chatting online like fish in water.
I've been thinking the same thing. She'd be a beast on internet forums.
I'm wondering if that's part of what Lilly meant when she said that Hanako was into computers?
Fanon seems to indicate that she's good with using computers and software, but not so much the social aspects: Chat rooms, forums, that sort of stuff.
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Oddball
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Re: Could you?...In real life?

Post by Oddball » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:33 pm

0rac1eF0rk wrote:
Xanatos wrote: Well, her reasoning is inextricably linked to and caused by her trauma, so you are basically hating her for being traumatized...

And "sexual" would work there, yes. :P
Maybe so, but it's not directly because she's traumatized. There were alternatives to what happened behind closed doors. None come to mind, but with thought, there are.
To her, there really weren't any other options.

Talking about it would be next to impossible. It would also be pointless because she can tell that Hisao is tired of her and wants to move on to somebody he can have that type of relationship with. It's obvious. Besides, if she could bring herself to talk about it, he'd just try to tell her nothing was wrong and generally protect her and talk down to her.

Hanako had to prove to Hisao that she was perfectly good girlfriend material and tat he didn't have to look anywhere else.

Besides, her previous attempts to show how strong she was by going to the Shanghai to meet him by herself and going to the city by herself in broad daylight didn't really seem to impress him that much. It was time for something a bit more drastic.
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Banryu
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Re: Could you?...In real life?

Post by Banryu » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:25 am

I think it's too bad that people are attacking Oraclefork's stance so aggressively.... I'm personally on the opposite side of the argument as well, but I can respect the man's opinion. Different people are bound to be drawn to different characters in a story like this.

Ultimately though, I think the difference between you, Oracle, and Hisao, is the difference between you and Hisao. You're different people. (That's what I liked about Hisao, he's not just a bland self-insert character like most dating sims have.) He clearly has a different mindset and way of thinking than you, and was also possibly more attracted to Hanako than I'd wager to say you were, which could further change the path his behavior might have taken.

To be fair, you could also chalk it up to the fact that KS was conceived more or less as a porn game, and thus was bound to have sex in it-- thus, the writers may have shoehorned the scenes in the best ways they thought they could. Were the intimate scenes in Hanako's story a bit out of place? Maybe, sure, I can acknowledge that, even as a Hanako fan. But with them as an assumedly-necessary variable in the story, as I said, I think they still work to the advantage of strengthening Hanako's character.

Besides, Rin's cunnilingus scene caught me almost equally off-guard. =w= I dunno if any route is really exempt to that excuse or issue.

The way I see it, exposing herself to Hisao like she did in that scene was more than just offering herself to Hisao and trying to win back his attention... I mean, yes, that's sort of what the sex was, but... The initial reveal was more of a silent declaration of equality. Hisao saw fit to show her his scar, and she clearly has the psychological need to equalize herself in such regards-- when she heard about Hisao's accident, she immediately felt the need to tell Hisao about her own as well. Showing his scar to her was a huge gesture of trust and respect, and it was one that she desperately wanted to return, to show Hisao that they could be on more equal ground with each other, I think. Then consequently Hisao, being a high school boy with raging hormones as he was, misinterpreted the gesture as something more sexual, which Hanako went along with. No one's pretending that everything went the way it should have, in fact, they both know full well it was a pretty unmitigated disaster. However, when you have a novice construction worker, (to use your analogy, oracle) there are bound to be a few more structures knocked down in remodeling than are probably necessary. It's all part of learning... That's the way I see it.
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Re: Could you?...In real life?

Post by pandaphil » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:59 am

I think this is going to be the eternal question. There really isn't a 'wrong' answer. That's why 4LS ended their story where they did, so we could draw our own conclusions. Yes, a lot of us romantic types do think that if they'd held each other and talked, then perhaps the 'good' ending would have occurred sooner. but the argument is just as valid that it would have been an uncomfortable moment and Hanako would have continued to believe that Hisao saw her as just a girl who needed looking after, instead of the desirable young woman she wanted to be.

Yeah, that scene hurt a lot for those of us who grew to care for her during the story, and I personally don't think I'd have been able to have gone quite that far (fondling, kissing and touching though? Oh yes). But the more I've thought about it, the more I think in the end, something good came of those few minutes of unpleasantness.
"The way I see it, every life is a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don't always soften the bad things. But vice versa, the bad things don't necessarily spoil the good things or make them unimportant." ~ The Doctor.

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stateside
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Re: Could you?...In real life?

Post by stateside » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:31 am

IN real life?

I had a pal who died of arrhythmia while we were in school and I have had seizures from something wrong in my head since high school.

I did meet and eventually marry a young lady who had been raped by an American the first time she was away from her family.

I helped her when a couple other G.I.s were harassing her one day so I guess I did something similar in a way.

it cant be any easier to date a girl who is deathly afraid of men than a girl with an inferiority complex because of a a physical problem.
immense patience is required in either case.

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Re: Could you?...In real life?

Post by bahamit_147 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:31 am

stateside wrote:IN real life?

it cant be any easier to date a girl who is deathly afraid of men than a girl with an inferiority complex because of a a physical problem.
immense patience is required in either case.
I completely agree with that, and it doesn't go just one way men are just as likely prone to having a disability and immense patience is definatly required, my wife has more patience than a saint, I swear it. I'm not going to go into my own problems again, I've made mention of them several times already.

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Re: Could you?...In real life?

Post by inquisitivenegro » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:20 am

Half of us would get the ass-whipping end of Lilly's cane after a week of stalking and generally harassing Hanako, or kill ourselves on Emi's little run.

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pandaphil
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Re: Could you?...In real life?

Post by pandaphil » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:34 pm

inquisitivenegro wrote:Half of us would get the ass-whipping end of Lilly's cane after a week of stalking and generally harassing Hanako, or kill ourselves on Emi's little run.
Thats why you have to use strategy. Get only Lilly's good side first, before going after Hanako. :)

Actually that describes my one and only almost romantic relationship. I became very close to two best friends at once.
"The way I see it, every life is a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don't always soften the bad things. But vice versa, the bad things don't necessarily spoil the good things or make them unimportant." ~ The Doctor.

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Hisao&Hanako<3
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Re: Could you?...In real life?

Post by Hisao&Hanako<3 » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:25 am

I thought long about this too, and I'm really not sure what I would have done. I consider both my 18 year old and my present self, and both would have entirely different outcomes.

If I really were back in High school, around the KS girls, I probably would have liked Lilly. And yet back then, I was really really shy and didn't express my feelings with words at all. I resorted to writing letters to different people to talk about how I felt, as strange as that may sound. I just couldn't come out and say many things that I wanted to back then, and even when I did the one time, I was moved to tears and things didn't work out good anyway. That being said, back then, a girl like Hanako would have interested me, but I wouldn't have had the courage to make a move, and who knows what would have happened then. Had I decided to spend more time with her, I would have acted very shy, nervous and awkward, and that only would have served to make her feel the same so I don't really know what would have happened.

Nowadays though, with my grown and matured self, I can definitely say Hanako would have appealed to me the most, and with my lessons learned over the past decade, I probably would have made very good decisions and would become attached to her rather quickly, and seeing as in the game she started crushing on Hisao very quickly (within the first two weeks or so), I can honestly say I would have fallen for her just as fast and I would let her know it. How she might respond though, I'm not totally sure. I have a feeling that if I would try to go all "smooth moves" on her too fast and get close to her physically, it would frighten her. But if I tiptoe and beat around the bush, she might think I'm "white knighting" her. But nowadays, I'm not the kind to beat around the bush. Even so, I have roundabout ways of asking things that would give me a pretty good idea of how she feels, and then when I know the time is right, I'd make my move and it would probably be all blushes and hugs and kisses after that. :lol:

Wow, I've been making some really long posts lately.

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Nekken
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Re: Could you?...In real life?

Post by Nekken » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:45 am

Banryu wrote:It may have felt wrong and manipulative and whatnot to have sex with Hanako like that, but when you think about it, ultimately it was probably the best thing Hisao could have done in those circumstances. With Hanako's self-esteem as unnaturally low as it was, she'd most likely take any form of refusal to her offer as Hisao rejecting her and her body, and would probably think that Hisao wasn't attracted to her-- she'd naturally draw the conclusion that they couldn't be together because he didn't want her, regardless of how he tries to explain it. Even though it was uncomfortable (probably even painful) as hell for her physically, Hanako can probably take some solace in the fact that Hisao was WILLING to have sex with her, despite how her body looks-- and I think it was ultimately that that allowed the two to salvage their relationship later. Their pre-sex relationship was an unhealthy one, and it needed to be broken so they could rebuild and grow stronger together. Besides, I'm willing to bet that they probably had that talk (the one you two are talking about) later anyway.
I wouldn't go so far as to call it the best thing Hisao could have done. He acted recklessly, ignoring some classic red flags, and while it turned out that Hanako did in fact consent, Hisao didn't act in a manner that gave him any way of knowing that. Things could very easily have taken a much nastier turn, and Hisao would not have known because he wasn't paying attention. He got very lucky on that account. Fortunately, he seems to realize this himself later on.

You do make valid points. Hanako did need reassurance: she was operating under some mistaken perceptions, but they were what they were, and that's not Hisao's fault. One could argue that this reassurance could have been done with words alone, and for someone in a normal and healthy state of mind that would be true. But Hanako, as with many adults in the state of mind she actually was in, needed something more primal than that. Once that door was locked, I don't think there was any way out without at least some measure of physicality. But things got completely out of hand, which was perhaps to be expected, given who we're talking about.

The big problem I can see with putting a scene like this into the game is that it would look way too much like Crescendo.
Falling in love is a volcano. Being in love is a kotatsu.

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Oddball
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Re: Could you?...In real life?

Post by Oddball » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:39 am

He acted recklessly, ignoring some classic red flags
What classic red flags? Hanako was acting nervous and seemed reluctant to do something? Seems to me that's pretty much her default status.
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Nekken
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Re: Could you?...In real life?

Post by Nekken » Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:04 pm

Oddball wrote:
He acted recklessly, ignoring some classic red flags
What classic red flags? Hanako was acting nervous and seemed reluctant to do something? Seems to me that's pretty much her default status.
Nervousness and reluctance are one thing (two, actually) but she completely froze up multiple times.
Falling in love is a volcano. Being in love is a kotatsu.

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