Kenji's Smile

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Xanatos
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Re: Kenji's Smile

Post by Xanatos » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:03 pm

Denouement wrote:Huh?

People forming a voice in their head, attaching it to a character, then praising the character for having such a voice (which was formed by them and put on said character by them) is making up a quality about someone and praising someone for the quality you made up.

Not entirely sure what you mean by what you are saying and how it is the same as that. If you mean praising given qualities about fictional characters, that's not at all what we are talking about.
Any quality given to any character is made-up. Go watch any movie. You see those characters? Many of their qualities are made up by the actor. Were the actual character real, it may be entirely different, yet those characters are still praised for traits imagined by the actor. More specifically, go watch Manhunter and Red Dragon. Both have the same character. Yet in each, the character is different because the qualities of the character are formed by and put on that character by different people in each film. Each version is praised by various people for the traits the actor made up for it.
Last edited by Xanatos on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Denouement
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Re: Kenji's Smile

Post by Denouement » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:09 pm

There is a difference between praising a fictional character and praising a quality about a fictional character that you fabricated. All of these examples of movies where actors portray something, you aren't give to ADD a quality that you came up with and say they have that? I'm confused as to what you are thinking.

I was adding onto the post that you quoted when you were typing your post, so yeah read that too. :lol:

I mean, I have no problem obviously with imaging their voices, and enjoying the voices you attribute to them, but then to claim that the voice you made up is their voice is well... bizarre and presumptuous.

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Re: Kenji's Smile

Post by FoxtrotZero » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:27 pm

Denouement wrote:Huh?

People forming a voice in their head, attaching it to a character, then praising the character for having such a voice (which was formed by them and put on said character by them) is making up a quality about someone and praising someone for the quality you made up.
The characters are created in great detail. I know what they look like, how they speak, how they act. The voice is probably the one blank I have to fill in. It's not a complete creation of my mind when it's completely inferred from the material. And it's also not a complete creation of my mind when I can talk to other fans of the character about it and there is no communication barrier.
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Re: Kenji's Smile

Post by Xanatos » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:32 pm

Denouement wrote:There is a difference between praising a fictional character and praising a quality about a fictional character that you fabricated. All of these examples of movies where actors portray something, you aren't give to ADD a quality that you came up with and say they have that? I'm confused as to what you are thinking.

I was adding onto the post that you quoted when you were typing your post, so yeah read that too. :lol:

I mean, I have no problem obviously with imaging their voices, and enjoying the voices you attribute to them, but then to claim that the voice you made up is their voice is well... bizarre and presumptuous.
Both characters are praised for fabricated traits. Two actors have played Hannibal. Each one fabricated a personality and mannerisms different from both the other actor and the text that originated the character, and both are praised based on some guy's personal interpretations and fabrications. Likewise, players have fabricated a sound for Hanako departing from the source material and she is also praised for a fabrication. Hannibal is praised for traits that were made up by the actors (not given in the text). Hanako is praised for traits made up by the players (again, not given in the text).


Objectively, Hanako has no voice. Subjectively, she has many. Whichever voice you imagine is her voice. To some, her voice is childlike. To others, she may sound like an angry black woman. Both are correct to the individuals who perceive them as such but still factually incorrect because there is no real voice there. And if you'd like to take that to its logical conclusion: Every opinion ever is objectively incorrect.
Last edited by Xanatos on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kenji's Smile

Post by FoxtrotZero » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:39 pm

Xanatos wrote:
Denouement wrote:There is a difference between praising a fictional character and praising a quality about a fictional character that you fabricated. All of these examples of movies where actors portray something, you aren't give to ADD a quality that you came up with and say they have that? I'm confused as to what you are thinking.

I was adding onto the post that you quoted when you were typing your post, so yeah read that too. :lol:

I mean, I have no problem obviously with imaging their voices, and enjoying the voices you attribute to them, but then to claim that the voice you made up is their voice is well... bizarre and presumptuous.
Both characters are praised for fabricated traits. Two actors have played Hannibal. Each one fabricated a personality and mannerisms different from both the other actor and the text that originated the character, and both are praised based on some guy's personal interpretations and fabrications. Likewise, players have fabricated a sound for Hanako departing from the source material and she is also praised for a fabrication. Hannibal is praised for traits that were made up by the actors (not given in the text). Hanako is praised for traits made up by the players (again, not given in the text).


Objectively, Hanako has no voice, unless whoever wrote her imagined a voice for her (as they would have the ultimate authority to place a voice to their character). Subjectively, she has many. Whichever voice you imagine is her voice. To some, her voice is childlike. To others, she may sound like an angry black woman. Both are correct to the individuals who perceive them as such.
Fandubbing Hanako to the sound of an angry black woman would be sacrilege on every level ever, but painfully hilarious.

OT: I wouldn't call her "childlike", at least not as far as her voice goes. Soft spoken, perhaps, but I think she's too good at boxing up her emotions to really sound childlike. But her laughter, yeah, "childlike" is a potential description of that.
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Xanatos
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Re: Kenji's Smile

Post by Xanatos » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:51 pm

FoxtrotZero wrote:Fandubbing Hanako to the sound of an angry black woman would be sacrilege on every level ever, but painfully hilarious.
Ahem...Madea.
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Re: Kenji's Smile

Post by Steinherz » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:56 pm

Xanatos wrote:
FoxtrotZero wrote:Fandubbing Hanako to the sound of an angry black woman would be sacrilege on every level ever, but painfully hilarious.
Ahem...Madea.
XD
That would be disturbing and hilarious at the same time
I write take a look, would you kindly?
I also draw, kind of.
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Re: Kenji's Smile

Post by FoxtrotZero » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:00 pm

Steinherz wrote:
Xanatos wrote:
FoxtrotZero wrote:Fandubbing Hanako to the sound of an angry black woman would be sacrilege on every level ever, but painfully hilarious.
Ahem...Madea.
XD
That would be disturbing and hilarious at the same time
I have no clue what you're talking about.
I think I would like to maintain that.
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Re: Kenji's Smile

Post by Xanatos » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:11 pm

FoxtrotZero wrote:I have no clue what you're talking about.
I think I would like to maintain that.
Skip to 2:35.
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Denouement
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Re: Kenji's Smile

Post by Denouement » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:50 pm

Xanatos wrote:Any quality given to any character is made-up. Go watch any movie. You see those characters? Many of their qualities are made up by the actor. Were the actual character real, it may be entirely different, yet those characters are still praised for traits imagined by the actor. More specifically, go watch Manhunter and Red Dragon. Both have the same character. Yet in each, the character is different because the qualities of the character are formed by and put on that character by different people in each film. Each version is praised by various people for the traits the actor made up for it.
You aren't getting what I am saying. The fact that they are BOTH made up is blinding you, you cease to think about it further. Their circumstances outside of that are completely different. Yes, an actor's portrayal of a character is his fabrication, but the viewer doesn't dictate what that portrayal's non-given qualities are. You are given what the portrayal is, and you can interpret it. This interpretation does not give you full control of what that character's unspecified traits are. Again, I say that is incredibly bizarre, to even think we can fabricate traits about a character someone else made and say that this is so. For me to take all of the characters of Katawa Shoujo and then start listing traits that aren't mentioned in the dialogue or narration but can't be disproven and take that as meaning they are just as objectively true as what the dialogue and narration tells us is flat-out weird.
FoxtrotZero wrote:The characters are created in great detail. I know what they look like, how they speak, how they act. The voice is probably the one blank I have to fill in. It's not a complete creation of my mind when it's completely inferred from the material. And it's also not a complete creation of my mind when I can talk to other fans of the character about it and there is no communication barrier.
I'm not arguing that it isn't unfitting, I'm simply stating that filling in an empty blank is... well, filling in an empty blank. :lol: That is so EVEN if every single player agreed on it with consensus, the conception of it would still be arbitrary and wouldn't be automatically deemed official canon fact. It is one thing if Hisao remarks that he subjectively finds her voice to be one way and we learn that her voice can be seen that way. Even then it would be strange to go, "I love her voice!" because... it is still a blank we fill in. We can say, "I love the voice I imagine she could have!" or "I like that her voice is portrayed as being childish!" That makes much more sense, despite it sounding silly.

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Re: Kenji's Smile

Post by Xanatos » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:09 pm

Denouement wrote:to take all of the characters of Katawa Shoujo and then start listing traits that aren't mentioned in the dialogue or narration but can't be disproven and take that as meaning they are just as objectively true as what the dialogue and narration tells us is flat-out weird.
Well then, it's a good thing nobody has ever done that. :lol:
<KeiichiO>: "I wonder what Misha's WAHAHA's sound like with a cock stuffed down her throat..."
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<KeiichiO>: "That's a beautiful response to chocolate."

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Re: Kenji's Smile

Post by FoxtrotZero » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:12 pm

Denouement wrote:
FoxtrotZero wrote:The characters are created in great detail. I know what they look like, how they speak, how they act. The voice is probably the one blank I have to fill in. It's not a complete creation of my mind when it's completely inferred from the material. And it's also not a complete creation of my mind when I can talk to other fans of the character about it and there is no communication barrier.
I'm not arguing that it isn't unfitting, I'm simply stating that filling in an empty blank is... well, filling in an empty blank. :lol: That is so EVEN if every single player agreed on it with consensus, the conception of it would still be arbitrary and wouldn't be automatically deemed official canon fact. It is one thing if Hisao remarks that he subjectively finds her voice to be one way and we learn that her voice can be seen that way. Even then it would be strange to go, "I love her voice!" because... it is still a blank we fill in. We can say, "I love the voice I imagine she could have!" or "I like that her voice is portrayed as being childish!" That makes much more sense, despite it sounding silly.
Verily, I think you're overthinking it. I understand it's not canon and it's not a consensus opinion. But the fact that "Hanako doesn't officially have a voice" doesn't stop me from enjoying her childlike laugh. I've created a voice for her based on every other facet of her character. So have other Hanako fans. The one thing we can agree on is that her voice is perfect, because subjectively we're all assigning her the voice we feel is appropriate.

Which means when one Hanako fan says "I really like her childlike laugh" and another one agrees, they don't have to be thinking of the same laugh, merely the laugh that they mentally associate with the same character. That's the point. Subjectively, everyone's opinion is equally correct.
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Re: Kenji's Smile

Post by Denouement » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:24 pm

@Xanatos Not saying anyone did, that... wasn't the point.
FoxtrotZero wrote:Verily, I think you're overthinking it. I understand it's not canon and it's not a consensus opinion. But the fact that "Hanako doesn't officially have a voice" doesn't stop me from enjoying her childlike laugh. I've created a voice for her based on every other facet of her character. So have other Hanako fans. The one thing we can agree on is that her voice is perfect, because subjectively we're all assigning her the voice we feel is appropriate.

Which means when one Hanako fan says "I really like her childlike laugh" and another one agrees, they don't have to be thinking of the same laugh, merely the laugh that they mentally associate with the same character. That's the point. Subjectively, everyone's opinion is equally correct.
I'm not overthinking it, I mean, nothing you said here I disagree with and doesn't oppose what I said. :lol: All I am saying is we should acknowledge we are filling a blank for ourselves, not for everyone else. That would be a creative injustice. I am not exactly saying something too remarkable. XD The reason it seems convoluted is because I'm having to explain an incredibly simple concept, which is a surprisingly daunting task haha.

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Re: Kenji's Smile

Post by FoxtrotZero » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:37 pm

Denouement wrote:@Xanatos Not saying anyone did, that... wasn't the point.
FoxtrotZero wrote:Verily, I think you're overthinking it. I understand it's not canon and it's not a consensus opinion. But the fact that "Hanako doesn't officially have a voice" doesn't stop me from enjoying her childlike laugh. I've created a voice for her based on every other facet of her character. So have other Hanako fans. The one thing we can agree on is that her voice is perfect, because subjectively we're all assigning her the voice we feel is appropriate.

Which means when one Hanako fan says "I really like her childlike laugh" and another one agrees, they don't have to be thinking of the same laugh, merely the laugh that they mentally associate with the same character. That's the point. Subjectively, everyone's opinion is equally correct.
I'm not overthinking it, I mean, nothing you said here I disagree with and doesn't oppose what I said. :lol: All I am saying is we should acknowledge we are filling a blank for ourselves, not for everyone else. That would be a creative injustice. I am not exactly saying something too remarkable. XD The reason it seems convoluted is because I'm having to explain an incredibly simple concept, which is a surprisingly daunting task haha.
I hate it when this happens. It seems like we're trying to counter eachother, but we're both being so complicated that we're making seperate points altogether.
Yeah, I was in a thread where we tried to give examples of how Hanako sounds in our head, and several people's ideas are completely different from my own. And yet we all have this idea of what she sounds like, and think about it with such fondness, that when we can all agree that her laugh is a beautiful thing to behold, it's truly a great testament to the detail with which the character was created. And anyone who would look upon that and say "that's strange" can GTFO.
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Re: Kenji's Smile

Post by Xanatos » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:04 pm

Denouement wrote:I'm having to explain an incredibly simple concept, which is a surprisingly daunting task haha.
Welcome to my life. :lol: And again, nothing but sympathy for Rin. XD
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