So I've finished Shizune's story

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yummines
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by yummines » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:52 am

ProfAllister wrote:
yummines wrote:It may be the fact that it was kind of half finished (someone left the team in the middle of it) so the side characters (Hideki in particular) didn't get any kind of development and there was almost no conflict other than Misha being a little depressed (and those drills. cmon why did they have to go).
WRONG!

One dev did leave in the middle of production. Cpl Crud. The Author of Hanako's route. Hanako's route was left half finished and taken over by a second author (Crud did act 2, Suriko did acts 3 and 4). To my understanding, A22 (the author of Shizune's route) was in it for the long haul. Furthermore, I believe it's been stated that A22 was one of the key authors for act 1 (Aura being the other), as well as the mind behind most of the side characters (particularly Yuuko and Kenji).

A22 clearly isn't interested in (publicly) engaging with the fanbase, and I understand he's a bit of an ass at times, but he doesn't deserve even half of the lies that have spread about him.

Complain about the route if you like. Criticise the writing, plot progression, or whatever. But don't spread this false rumor. It deserves to die in a fire.
eh, i dont even know anymore. i know that some route someone left halfway through it, wasn't sure which one.

but still, why did the drills have to go.

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Megumeru
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Megumeru » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:12 am

yummines wrote: eh, i dont even know anymore. i know that some route someone left halfway through it, wasn't sure which one.

but still, why did the drills have to go.
Two words: cultural reference.

It is a tradition in Japan concerning unrequited love. It's like a declaration saying 'hey, I've moved on from my past love that has kept me in chains'.
...though clearly in that aspect, Misha was unable to 'move on'.


I swear, once I've finished the next chapter I'll jump into this thread. It's making me itch
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They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
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yummines
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by yummines » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:32 am

Megumeru wrote:
yummines wrote: eh, i dont even know anymore. i know that some route someone left halfway through it, wasn't sure which one.

but still, why did the drills have to go.
Two words: cultural reference.

It is a tradition in Japan concerning unrequited love. It's like a declaration saying 'hey, I've moved on from my past love that has kept me in chains'.
...though clearly in that aspect, Misha was unable to 'move on'.


I swear, once I've finished the next chapter I'll jump into this thread. It's making me itch
no i know about that

still

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Shadowyeclipse
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Shadowyeclipse » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:45 am

yummines wrote:
Megumeru wrote:
yummines wrote: eh, i dont even know anymore. i know that some route someone left halfway through it, wasn't sure which one.

but still, why did the drills have to go.
Two words: cultural reference.

It is a tradition in Japan concerning unrequited love. It's like a declaration saying 'hey, I've moved on from my past love that has kept me in chains'.
...though clearly in that aspect, Misha was unable to 'move on'.


I swear, once I've finished the next chapter I'll jump into this thread. It's making me itch
no i know about that

still

Is it just me, or would anyone else would have liked to see Misha with her normal, brunette hair?
Emibro, [Hanabro],[Lilly Lover], Rin Kin, Feminist, Two-timer

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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Oddball » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:20 am

Megumeru wrote:
yummines wrote: eh, i dont even know anymore. i know that some route someone left halfway through it, wasn't sure which one.

but still, why did the drills have to go.
Two words: cultural reference.

It is a tradition in Japan concerning unrequited love. It's like a declaration saying 'hey, I've moved on from my past love that has kept me in chains'.
...though clearly in that aspect, Misha was unable to 'move on'.
It's possible. Of course no real mention is ever made of this and Misha doesn't actually dye her back back to the color it was before she changed it for Shizune, so it could just very well be Misha just cutting it for the reason she actually stated in the game.

But it's Misha. It's hard to tell when she's doing things for a reason that she's not sharing with anybody or when she's just ...well... being Misha.
Is it just me, or would anyone else would have liked to see Misha with her normal, brunette hair?
Personally, I think if she was trying to make a statement that she was getting over her relationship, dying her hair color back to brunette again would have been a lot more symbolic than cutting her hair.
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Ste » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:42 am

FoxtrotZero wrote: Yuuko never meant much to me and Kenji wasn't really a tolerable character outside of Shizune's route. Likewise, yes, Misha and Shizune do occur a lot in other people's acts, but that's at least partially justified in that they're in several of Hisao's classes and they are the type of people to rope him into a conversation, like it or not.
No, it isn't.

First golden rule: you cannot introduce a character and make it disappear without any reason as if it never existed!

Emi's background is the track: you could insert a little bit of chit-chat between Hisao and her over there. Same with Hanako in the library. Same with Rin on the rooftop. Same with Lilly almost everywhere except Hisao's classroom.

Second golden rule: if you're after realism, strive for it till the end!

Lilly's arc is full of implausible details and Shizune's arc is a complete nonsense.

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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Kutagh » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:28 am

Ste wrote:
FoxtrotZero wrote: Yuuko never meant much to me and Kenji wasn't really a tolerable character outside of Shizune's route. Likewise, yes, Misha and Shizune do occur a lot in other people's acts, but that's at least partially justified in that they're in several of Hisao's classes and they are the type of people to rope him into a conversation, like it or not.
No, it isn't.

First golden rule: you cannot introduce a character and make it disappear without any reason as if it never existed!

Emi's background is the track: you could insert a little bit of chit-chat between Hisao and her over there. Same with Hanako in the library. Same with Rin on the rooftop. Same with Lilly almost everywhere except Hisao's classroom.

Second golden rule: if you're after realism, strive for it till the end!

Lilly's arc is full of implausible details and Shizune's arc is a complete nonsense.
Please state what isn't realistic about Shizune's arc? Because from what I see, it is pretty realistic.

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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Ste » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:44 am

Kutagh wrote:
Ste wrote: Second golden rule: if you're after realism, strive for it till the end!

Lilly's arc is full of implausible details and Shizune's arc is a complete nonsense.
Please state what isn't realistic about Shizune's arc? Because from what I see, it is pretty realistic.
Everything.

Lack of realism isn't Shizune's arc biggest flaw, anyway.
Its biggest flaw is that the whole story doesn't make any sense. Shizune could have said "I want to be a pearl diver in theTennessee River" instead of "a philanthropist", in the end. It would have been the same. No difference.

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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by ravenlord » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:26 am

Ste wrote: Its biggest flaw is that the whole story doesn't make any sense. Shizune could have said "I want to be a pearl diver in theTennessee River" instead of "a philanthropist", in the end. It would have been the same. No difference.
Play Shizune's arc again, a little slower, and watch for the details. A second time through will most likely help you in understanding it. If her way of life is that alien to you, it will be a fun learning experience to gain a new perspective. It is a little too deep for some people initially, but well worth the effort for them when they work extra hard in plumbing to new depths. :)

Also, Shizune is the class rep and SC pres. Of course she will be in all of the arcs to a certain extent. Same with Yuuko, Kenji, Mutou, etc. Stories are awkward without a supporting cast.
Hanako>Shizune>Lilly>Emi>Rin {100% complete}
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Megumeru » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:42 am

screw that planner, I can't get this itch off.
Oddball wrote: It's possible. Of course no real mention is ever made of this and Misha doesn't actually dye her back back to the color it was before she changed it for Shizune, so it could just very well be Misha just cutting it for the reason she actually stated in the game.

But it's Misha. It's hard to tell when she's doing things for a reason that she's not sharing with anybody or when she's just ...well... being Misha.
Oddball wrote:
Is it just me, or would anyone else would have liked to see Misha with her normal, brunette hair?
Personally, I think if she was trying to make a statement that she was getting over her relationship, dying her hair color back to brunette again would have been a lot more symbolic than cutting her hair.
Again this is where we see a different aspect in the story. Remember about the 'unreliable narrator'? This is where it strongly plays its part.

In the entire story up until ACTIII, you (the reader in general) never fully understand what's going on with Misha and Shizune except if one of them themselves tells it directly to Hisao--but is it credible? Did they tell Hisao everything, or just partial details while keeping the rest undercover or underplayed?

There's a lot--a lot of things that forces the reader to guess what is going on between Shizune, Misha, and Hisao with most of the expectations of what is going to happen taking place in the mind of the reader. Half of the time I'm reading her arc for the first time I initially BELIEVED Misha has interest in Hisao--until that particular chapter when you realize 'oh shit, I'm the problem in this entire relationship' when Misha said 'I'm gay for Shii-chan'; not to mention, Misha asks Hisao how he feels about her twice, which further mislead your initial guess. Shizune's arc is also chock-full of traditional Japanese cultural references that frankly, I'm not surprised many missed it. This actually makes it vital that some basic cultural understanding of Japan is necessary in fully capturing Shizune's story (give yourself a pat in the back if you catch most of them :D )

Now then, on the hair subject...

In traditional Japan, a male samurai would often wear his hair in a top-knot as a status symbol, which meant he belongs in the 'upper class' and is forbidden to work in the field (farming. Samurais are often hired, so if no one hires them=no job=no money=no food). However, if the samurai decides to cut his top-knot it means in a literal sense that he is 'undergoing dramatic life-altering change' and proclaiming a drop in his status (another way to say it is basically abandoning the way of the bushido and taking the job as a farmer). Following on another tradition, it is known in traditional times that an ideal Japanese woman would have meticulously long hair (the 'Yamato Nadeshiko', if you will. A good example would be Kaguya from the story 'Taketori no Monogatari/Tale of the Bamboo Cutter' or another name for it 'Kaguya Hime/Princess Kaguya'). It's basically similar to the expression 'a woman's hair is her life', which gives great symbolism to how valuable one's hair is for the 'perfect' woman/Yamato Nadeshiko. But the point here is about cutting one's hair.

So with this regard following cultural mentality of that time, if a girl cuts her hair it is the same as cutting one's life/connection to previous existence; this continues as a tradition and a well-developed mentality. If you've been watching J-dramas and anime and you see a particular character with long hair suddenly cutting her hair short or gets a new haircut after a 'life-altering event', then you know shit just got real even if she said otherwise (mostly prevalent in romance stories. A good example would be from School Rumble on the character Mikoto Suo after she met her senpai. Go watch/read if you haven't.).

Dying one's hair is not enough. It needs to be cut!

Now, in a similar fashion Misha cuts her hair after she realize how Shizune has been spending less and less time with her and more with Hisao, but still tries to make the effort to cater to her. This contributes to her unrequited love, which then leads to the chapter where she deliberately tries to avoid Hisao and Shizune after the trip as a means to give them some time; in a sense, she's feeling as the 'third wheel' in the relationship and wishes to move on--though as we all know, that didn't happen.

Hell, if I am to be honest the entire arc smells like highschool J-drama. You have the best friend who is in love with the main character playing as the cupid to get the MC's love interest despite having feelings of her own towards the MC. Then when the MC finally did get together with the LI, the BF celebrated the fact...for awhile until she/he realizes how painful it is to watch in the sideline (while developing a mentality that led him/her to believe as being the 'third wheel'). In the end, the BF tries to overcome this problem by solving it through his/her own power (e.g. leaving, suicide, getting a partner of his/her own, etc.) but ends up hurting those around her--or herself. School Days by Overflow is one good example, though with all due respect the MC over there needs to be shot dead regardless.

It's that simple, I'm actually rather surprised the first time around when some people don't understand what's going on in her route :?
Though I can see why now, I guess...
Ste wrote: Everything.

Lack of realism isn't Shizune's arc biggest flaw, anyway.
Its biggest flaw is that the whole story doesn't make any sense. Shizune could have said "I want to be a pearl diver in theTennessee River" instead of "a philanthropist", in the end. It would have been the same. No difference.
Then you don't understand everything that is going on in her route. And I really mean everything.

Do you know what a philanthropist is? Philanthropy in definition means "The effort or inclination to increase the well-being of humankind, as by charitable aid or donations", "Love of Humankind in general", or something that "promotes human welfare, such as an activity or an institution". A Philanthropist is basically a person who makes these things happen as a career. Now let's look at Shizune as a character.

In all of her drive to accomplish something 'greater', be it her demand from Lilly in ACT I, Hisao's involvement with the SC and the festival, up to the point where she tries to win Misha once again after the breakup, does she have any ill-intentions hidden in between? Or is it because she wants those around her to feel happy or accomplished?

You see, Shizune wants everyone--regardless if it's her friend or foe--to be happy and accomplished, and she'll do anything even if it meant taking everyone's job so they could all have fun. One problem with Shizune as a character is her disability which prevents her from actually understanding her target audiences situation and left everything according to her own guess work--but still she'll do it anyway even if it means there's a slim chance that she can see a 'true' smile from the people she helped.

With this in consideration, let's look what she wants to be. A philanthropist, humanitarian--you can expect she'll be going around the world with NGOs or aide group helping someone somewhere. This goes in play with her character.

Now a pearl diver? Gimme' a break...where the hell did you get that idea anyway? If any, I dare say Shizune's arc is second place in having the amount of realism involved in it (overtaken by Emi's arc).


You want to know an arc that is full of nonsense (though this actually goes hand-in-hand with implausible details)? It's one that involves sparkling vampires, but that itself is off-the-grid in the first place...oh wait, that isn't part of KS at all! That's good to know :lol:
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They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
"A writer is a light that reveals the world of his story from darkness. Shapes it from nothingness. If the writer stops, the world dies with it." - Alan Wake
Yes, I write stories. Currently working on: The Haunting: A Love Story

ProfAllister
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by ProfAllister » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:09 am

Okay, confession time:

When I first went through Shizune's route, I was disappointed.

I was enjoying the story. Things were going along well, and I was getting into it. I didn't even notice the lack of choices. Unfortunately, I fell for Misha. It could have been her role in Emi's route (I played Emi, Rin, Shizune, Hanako, Lilly), or it could have been the few peeks behind the curtain to see the "real" Misha, but I decided that I wanted her to be happy. The infamous choice came, and it was obvious which choice was the wrong one. But a part of me held out hope that it could potentially end up in something other than tears. Shizune's route was the only route where I didn't get the good ending first. I then loaded at the decision point, and got the good ending. I was perplexed, because it was so hard to tell what happened differently. It felt like Shizune's resolution was "I know I can be a bit of a bitch, but I'm okay with that." On top of that, rather than any serious career path, she chose philanthropy. That felt as unrealistic as "I want to be independently wealthy and spend all my time reading." It sounds great, but it's not really a plan. And no happiness for Misha. :(

I wrote it off as a loss, then continued on through Hanako and Lilly's routes.

After I got 100%, I went through the standard post-KS funk. I'd like to imagine that I learned some important things from that, and grew as a person. More relevant to this story, I decided to write up a blog entry about my reaction to KS. I never finished the entry, so you won't see it, even if you try to stalk me. But it helped me think things through. I still didn't understand what happened in Shizune's route, but I realized that I didn't understand it, and it deserved another go. I also realized that Rin's route deserved a second time, even though I did enjoy it.

But I didn't go back right away. Life happens, and I put it off in favor of other things. I read a few other peoples' essays on KS, started frequenting the forums, and, after some reluctance, even looked toward the fanfic section.

As many of you know, there's relatively little about Shizune, and a pitifully insubstantial amount for Misha. And for all the talk about "no Misha route," all there was was one extremely short pornish route and one work in progress being written by an extremely busy writer. So I read through the other fanfics that contained Misha. Some good, some bad, some ugly. More importantly, for someone as obsessively detail-oriented as I am, there were too many contradictions.

So I decided that I needed to express my opinion of who Misha is. But I wanted to get it right (or, at the very least, internally consistent). So I studied obsessively. I read everything about Misha and Shizune and Shizune's route, from A22's posts in the dev blog to the various discussions here in the forums to the blurb on the KS website. I then replayed the route, going over it with a fine-toothed comb.

And while trying to make sense of Misha, I found myself making sense of Shizune. Appropriately, much of what happens in Shizune's route is left unspoken. Volumes are expressed in subtle expression shifts from one line to the next. All the dots are put in place, but the reader needs to connect them.

Hisao's ex sends him a letter in late June (or early July), but Hisao doesn't receive it until much later (September?). And Kenji mentioned in passing that the Student Council controls the mail. The Student Council run by his current girlfriend (who would have been a prospective girlfriend when the letter first arrived).

Shizune's family is tragically dysfunctional, but they never even acknowledge the total lack of a mother. Possible hints are littered throughout the sequence of events, but most people just become distracted by the loud father and the flashy brother. And the awkward, yet touching sex scene. All the sex scenes (even Emi's anal) could have entire essays written on them, yet I get the impression that this one speaks far more about Shizune than any other scene does about their respective girl.

And then we get an extremely complex love triangle causing all sorts of mayhem. Leaving aside any questions of sexual orientation, we have an exquisite specimen of a clusterfuck. Shizune wants Hisao and Misha to be happy. Misha wants Hisao and Shizune to be happy. Hisao wants Shizune and Misha to be happy. In this case, the happiness is (or appears to be) a zero-sum game. If one person is made happy, it is at the expense of another. And this conflict isn't resolved. It can't be. The tension is defused, but it comes at the expense of one of the participants. Misha gives up her happiness (in this particular sense) for the sake of the others. Her pain isn't resolved.

And, well, I could go on (and on, and on...) for hours. And, in all honesty, it's very possible that I'm giving the story more credit than it deserves. But when you find a thing of beauty, does it really matter whether it came there by chance, was put there by design, or is entirely in your head?
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Reksho » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:27 am

ProfAllister wrote:But when you find a thing of beauty, does it really matter whether it came there by chance, was put there by design, or is entirely in your head?
I, too, thought about this for a very long time. Still am, and didn't find a definitive answer. I mean, even the KS staff didn't expect the huge amount of response to the game and definitely not the type of response where people broke down in tears. So what to think when even the creators themselves didn't expect the results? I'd like to think that a beautiful creation is an interplay of effort from the creator, will of the subconscious and the right circumstances that nobody has in control.

Basically, being human.

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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Kisu » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:02 am

I actually have quite a problem understanding what the actual conflict between Shizune and Misha was aside from Misha being lesbian and cutting her drills off=giving up on the relationship
But for some reason i feel like the whole conflict happened only because you started hanging out with Misha and Shizune and if you go with another path, it would not be such a big deal so it's best to just leave them alone. But even though i have a problem of getting a full image of the conflict, i really liked the ending
I also wouldn't mind if someone explained the whole Misha-Shizune situation to me

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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by d2r » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:48 pm

Kisu wrote:I actually have quite a problem understanding what the actual conflict between Shizune and Misha was aside from Misha being lesbian and cutting her drills off=giving up on the relationship
But for some reason i feel like the whole conflict happened only because you started hanging out with Misha and Shizune and if you go with another path, it would not be such a big deal so it's best to just leave them alone. But even though i have a problem of getting a full image of the conflict, i really liked the ending
I also wouldn't mind if someone explained the whole Misha-Shizune situation to me
Hell of a thread necro... :lol:

Quick explanation of the Misha & Shizune situation as requested: the conflict happened because Shizune is straight and so refused Misha's affections. Because Misha, like all the major characters, is still a teenager (and therefore inclined to make poor decisions), she handles this by bottling up her feelings and getting hung up on Shizune. Her repressed feelings come out when she sees Hisao and Shizune get together, causing her to fall into depression because she thinks she isn't worthy of being loved. She offers herself to Hisao out of self-loathing and a desire for any form of affection..
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Charmant » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:25 pm

Kisu wrote:I actually have quite a problem understanding what the actual conflict between Shizune and Misha was aside from Misha being lesbian and cutting her drills off=giving up on the relationship
But for some reason i feel like the whole conflict happened only because you started hanging out with Misha and Shizune and if you go with another path, it would not be such a big deal so it's best to just leave them alone. But even though i have a problem of getting a full image of the conflict, i really liked the ending
I also wouldn't mind if someone explained the whole Misha-Shizune situation to me
If Hisao didn't cause it, someone/thing else would have.

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