So I've finished Shizune's story

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FoxtrotZero
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So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by FoxtrotZero » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:55 am

And this is going to be kind of directionless because I've slept 4 of the past 40 hours and I can't seem to keep my thoughts straight. I shouldn't actually have to say that this thread will contain spoilers, so if you care about that sort of thing, let this be your heads up.

Don't anyone get me wrong going in. It was a good story. It was a touching story. It made me happy. It didn't instill the sort of emotions the other two I've so far played did, and I didn't feel as involved for a combination of reasons, but it was good.

I think the main thing I should point out is probably something I can't blame anyone for, not even myself really. I like Shizune as a character, but she doesn't click with me the same way, say, Hanako does. Her personality is different from mine and, likewise, Hisao's personality in her story is different from mine. A difficulty associating with the main character, becoming emotionally attached to the heroine, and literally only one decision outside of Act 1 didn't do much to tether me to the story.

But it isn't just the fact that Shizune isn't my dream girl (well, emotionally speaking - she is probably the most attractive, and while I wasn't fond of all the art in this arc, the intimate scenes were excellently crafted. If I continue this train of thought, things will get creepy), but the fact that throughout the storyline, I have trouble understanding both her, and at times Misha, as a person. Being tired and delerious doesn't help too much, but I pride myself on maintaining most of my cognitive abilities, and I did a lot of rereading when things went over my head.

Another thing that kept throwing me off is actually my imagination. As a part of immersing myself into the world, I kept imagining all the conversations in sign, and it did seem painfully difficult. Enough so that I'd have to be quite in love to pursue a relationship despite it (which I wasn't, but you should know that after the previous paragraphs).

That having been said, I'm slightly confused. Shizune rarely makes sounds. She stifles her laughter, but on one occasion she does actually laugh, and she is known to make other sounds. Which makes sense, because I assume her inability to speak stems not from some vocal chord difficulty but simply not having ever learned it due to her deafness. Makes sense. Would it be accurate to say that, if she wanted to, she could learn how to speak? I'm pretty sure I've heard of deaf people doing that, and her father (we'll get to him in a minute) seemed like he wanted her to do that, but Shizune wouldn't have it.

GOOD GOD I HATED SHIZUNE'S FATHER. I'm not going to get into this too deeply, but the man pissed me off to no end. I mean, after him, Kenji was an actually likable dude (but, then again, Kenji had a bit more development and served a purpose other than comic relief, for which I offer my kudos).

I can't shake the feeling that Shizune is supposed to be the default path. She and Misha are the first people you meet. They're bold and outgoing, so they're likely to rope you in. Shizune's path is easy to get, and almost impossible to fuck up (I plan on going back and doing Misha's spin off, of course, so I am yet to understand where how that goes down.)

But I don't want to give the impression that this entire OP is negative. It was, all in all, a great story, and I suppose I can see how some other people would be greatly attached to Shizune, just not me. There were a few parts that got me right here (*right fist to left breast*), especially when Misha explained her past with Shizune on the roof. For a few minutes, I couldn't shake the belief that she was suicidal, and ever since Kenji's route, EVERY time someone leans against that fence I worry. I honestly felt bad afterward, and even though I'm pretty convinced it can't end "well", comforting Misha seems like a very natural choice to make.

I think I've rambled on long enough. Unlike some of my characteristic rants that involve getting to a point by covering the surrounding area, I didn't have much of a point here, though if you want to put it in essence, Shizune's story was good, and I liked her as a character, but I didn't feel touched or even very involved simply because I failed to connect with her as a character.

Edit: With the magic of timely saves and skip mode, I've completed Misha's version of the story, too. Quite frankly, it was anticlimactic, to say the least. It is, indeed, fair to say that Misha doesn't even have a story, which is sorta what I expected it to be. Everything just kinda gets left hanging, but it's clearly not a happy ending.

Long story short, I knew it would technically be a bad ending. I only took it because I thought it would be more of "Hey, I suddenly have feels for Misha, this isn't going to go over well!" instead of "Hey, I kinda fucked up my relationship with my girlfriend by 'comforting' her lesbian best friend!" If I were to be blunt about it, anyway. But this is the first bad ending I've ever got, and so because it's just kind of a "you fucked up" stump on the story tree (which has, like, two fucking branches, by the way), it doesn't change my opinion of anything.

Although, between the two experiences, Misha is now a much deeper character, in my opinion.
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Oddball » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:53 am

I think Misha came across as a more interesting, sympathetic, and well developed character in Shizune's arc than Shizune did.

The fact that she never actually seems to have any real conflict in her route doesn't do much to help you build sympathy or understanding for her either.

Just out of curiosity, you keep saying that the story wasn't bad, but you don't say what you actually like about it. Frankly, I don't really think it was that good of a story. There's almost no conflict, any sense of resolution, or signs of emotional attachment between the main characters. Her supporting cast comes across as even better than she does (Misha) or outright cartoonish (her family.)

Now her route does have a few good scenes, but most of them have more to do with the other characters than with her. The bits with Misha's problems, the fishing trip (which I'll admit is one of the few times her competitiveness actually felt cute), and seeing Kenji without his glasses all stand out, and the graduation bit at the end makes for a good "last route" but overall I felt the route was horribly lacking.

As a supporting character in other people's routes, Shizune strikes me as much more likable and seems to show more character growth than you actually see in her own path.
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Kutagh » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:23 pm

What a lot of people fail to do is to realize what Shizune character really means, why she behaves like that. It's been discussed to death in other topics as well, but basically:

-There is the interpreter layer: You're just reading text and often it is interpreted by Misha. You're just missing the complete picture, the actual signing which can be so expressive (and sometimes clearly shows in the written interpretation). And you have to realize what this really means: Shizune has difficulties interacting directly with anyone but Misha and later on a bit with Hisao because everything goes through a filter that mangles how she wants to say things. Shizune can't sound angry, sad or whatever, you hear Misha's bubbly voice and have to rely on Shizune's face, if she wants to show it.
-Which brings me to the next point: You likely don't have any experience with an interpreter: It's not instant. You should know that sign language has a different grammar (for example in Dutch sign language, NGT, 'I want a glass of apple juice' becomes 'I glass apple juice want' and 'Why are you so angry?' becomes 'you angry why?') so you need to first wait for a whole sentence, re-order the words into the spoken language's grammar, add the required words like a, of and so on, place emphasis or extra information when required... So while you might be talking with someone, you're not waiting on an interpretation and while the Deaf are signing with each other, they're not waiting for the interpretation, but when you mix the two with an interpreter, there is this interpretation layer that consumes time.
-Never mind the fact that a lot of people don't really understand what they're supposed to do when they're trying to converse with a Deaf person: DO NOT RAISE YOUR VOICE A LOT. It doesn't help at all since due to raising your voice you're not articulating properly anymore which makes the louder sounds even harder to understand. Try to speak with a decently audible voice (so not a shy-ish quiet voice, please), remember to properly articulate so the vowels and such are as clear as possible, which also helps lip-reading (a lot of people are hard to lip-read because they barely use their lips >.>). Don't wildly exaggerate your movements, it's very annoying. Remember to keep good eye contact, don't cover your face (and especially your mouth) while conversing.
And a huge lot of other information that might be relevant but which I'm not going to reiterate.

As for speaking: I and TongueTiedPoet (ProfAllister) were actually talking about that recently. However, both of us think that she actually learned at least a bit of speaking (and TTP thinks that's roughly when she became deaf) and then got negative feedback in some form (family or school) which caused her to feel very insecure about it and decided to not speak anymore, considering the fact that she is actively trying to suppress as many sounds as possible (which means that she has at least learned a bit how to control her vocal chords).
And yes, the Deaf are perfectly capable of learning how to speak. However, the issue is that they don't hear themselves and thus cannot adjust their voice to sound 'normal'. Even I as a Deaf guy with Cochlear Implant and hearing aid, having basically been hearing with those for almost my whole life, am not capable of speaking with a 'perfectly normal' voice: The first time you meet me you'll have to get adjusted to my voice... But pretty soon after that you'll be used to my voice (and I don't sound that much different, it is noticeable but not massive). But for me speaking is my 'primary' way of conversation, while most Deaf people would have Sign Language as their primary way of conversation so for those it'd be quite energy-consuming to a) learn how to speak properly, being unable to just 'imitate' the sounds... b) to concentrate every time when they're going to speak on how to form the sounds, as the spoken language for them will never replace the sign language they're so used to and is so easy to use for them. Also, as I indicated earlier, the Sign Language grammar and the spoken/written grammar differs. Now you obviously don't notice it from me as I've read a lot of books and basically expanded my vocabulary primarily that way, but for the Deaf whom are used to seeing Sign Language it is not uncommon that they have difficulties with spelling and grammar, as sign language is not really based on how a word is written (while spoken language is and therefore the spoken language might not be that easy to start learning it but once you mastered the basics you mastered most words while for sign language you need to learn all signs in order to utilize them) which means another barrier...


If you really can understand how Shizune thinks, why she behaves like that, then you'll understand her story better and perhaps like her better too. As for myself, she is just too competitive for me but aside from that I might actually consider someone like her.

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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by ravenlord » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:54 pm

I think the routes are purposely driven differently to make sure that everyone likes at least one of the arcs. Shizune's was kind of the breather, low drama, logic paced, reality based story. At the other extreme is Rin's psychedelic adventure down the rabbit hole to dimensions unseen. These are the two routes most mentioned when people express a lack of ability to connect. The other three girls are more in the middle and so they are easier to connect with.

It's ok because I don't think you have to connect with all 5. You might want to finish the other girls, and then redo Shizune. You might find new depth to her or something that you missed earlier.

Rin is the one I have trouble with. I am going through her arc again as a learning excersize. I think that if I can deconstruct her and really understand her, then that will help me irl down the road if I ever meet anyone like her.
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Xanatos » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:45 pm

Everyone hated Shizune's father. That's pretty much the one universal agreement in regard to her path. :lol:
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by FoxtrotZero » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:04 pm

Oddball wrote:I think Misha came across as a more interesting, sympathetic, and well developed character in Shizune's arc than Shizune did.

The fact that she never actually seems to have any real conflict in her route doesn't do much to help you build sympathy or understanding for her either.

Just out of curiosity, you keep saying that the story wasn't bad, but you don't say what you actually like about it. Frankly, I don't really think it was that good of a story. There's almost no conflict, any sense of resolution, or signs of emotional attachment between the main characters. Her supporting cast comes across as even better than she does (Misha) or outright cartoonish (her family.)
Aside from the highlights you mention next, no, I can't point to exact things to say "I like this about the story", and that's something I like. Life isn't a string of distinct, seperate events. They do merge and create a sort of background noise, and that can sound like sweet music in and of itself. Sure, I didn't end up having a deep romantic interest in Shizune, and at times I had trouble understanding her psyche (and this is probably a realistic experience; Hanako was a lot closer to my own personality and feelings, and understanding her came naturally), but I did like her as a character, particularly once she gains a voice (because reading her sign and hearing Misha's interpretation are, indeed, worlds apart).
Now her route does have a few good scenes, but most of them have more to do with the other characters than with her. The bits with Misha's problems, the fishing trip (which I'll admit is one of the few times her competitiveness actually felt cute), and seeing Kenji without his glasses all stand out, and the graduation bit at the end makes for a good "last route" but overall I felt the route was horribly lacking.

As a supporting character in other people's routes, Shizune strikes me as much more likable and seems to show more character growth than you actually see in her own path.
It might be relevant that I've only played Lilly and Hanako's arcs, where she seemed almost nonexistant. Once again, it's hard not to get the impression that Misha is actually the leader (for obvious reasons). In those arcs, I don't recall any serious character growth, whereas she most definitely had character growth in her path, even if I was groggy and didn't follow it. She came to understand herself more, she grew closer to Hisao, and she patched up a friendship with Misha. If that's not character growth, I don't know the bloody definition.
Kutagh wrote:What a lot of people fail to do is to realize what Shizune character really means, why she behaves like that. It's been discussed to death in other topics as well, but basically:

-There is the interpreter layer: You're just reading text and often it is interpreted by Misha. You're just missing the complete picture, the actual signing which can be so expressive (and sometimes clearly shows in the written interpretation). And you have to realize what this really means: Shizune has difficulties interacting directly with anyone but Misha and later on a bit with Hisao because everything goes through a filter that mangles how she wants to say things. Shizune can't sound angry, sad or whatever, you hear Misha's bubbly voice and have to rely on Shizune's face, if she wants to show it.
Indeed. I remember my first playthrough, I was literally in the middle of lunch with them before I figured out to tell, more or less, which thoughts were Misha's and which were Shizune's. Likewise, I was probably halfway through Shizune's route before I really pinned how to turn her text into a character voice. I remember mostly relying on context and Hisao's monologue for interpreting her emotion. Then I remember thinking "man, she just has a few sprites, and because she's never opening her mouth to speak it looks like she's just shifting awkwardly". Then, I decide to follow Hisao's footsteps and put effort into creating a voice for her, and by paying attention to her facial expressions (even though the sprites obviously can't glean that much information), it was considerably deeper.
-Which brings me to the next point: You likely don't have any experience with an interpreter: It's not instant. You should know that sign language has a different grammar (for example in Dutch sign language, NGT, 'I want a glass of apple juice' becomes 'I glass apple juice want' and 'Why are you so angry?' becomes 'you angry why?') so you need to first wait for a whole sentence, re-order the words into the spoken language's grammar, add the required words like a, of and so on, place emphasis or extra information when required... So while you might be talking with someone, you're not waiting on an interpretation and while the Deaf are signing with each other, they're not waiting for the interpretation, but when you mix the two with an interpreter, there is this interpretation layer that consumes time.
I'm not too familiar with sign language, but I'm familiar enough with languages in general to understand that it would have a completely different grammar system (but then again, any sign language experience I have would be with American; JSL would be a double language barrier for me). And it honestly wasn't until the bedroom scene with Shizune that I picked up on the fact that she had to spend a while signing before it was a coherent sentance, whereas I had previously interpreted every "..." as being sign that Hisao was not understanding. Not that it's quite the same thing, I take a spanish class and I am familiar with, on occasion, having to wait through most of a sentance before it's even a coherent thought.
-Never mind the fact that a lot of people don't really understand what they're supposed to do when they're trying to converse with a Deaf person: DO NOT RAISE YOUR VOICE A LOT. It doesn't help at all since due to raising your voice you're not articulating properly anymore which makes the louder sounds even harder to understand. Try to speak with a decently audible voice (so not a shy-ish quiet voice, please), remember to properly articulate so the vowels and such are as clear as possible, which also helps lip-reading (a lot of people are hard to lip-read because they barely use their lips >.>). Don't wildly exaggerate your movements, it's very annoying. Remember to keep good eye contact, don't cover your face (and especially your mouth) while conversing.
And a huge lot of other information that might be relevant but which I'm not going to reiterate.
No real comment here, though if I ever actually interact with a deaf person I'll be certain to pull this out of the back of my mind.
As for speaking: I and TongueTiedPoet (ProfAllister) were actually talking about that recently. However, both of us think that she actually learned at least a bit of speaking (and TTP thinks that's roughly when she became deaf) and then got negative feedback in some form (family or school) which caused her to feel very insecure about it and decided to not speak anymore, considering the fact that she is actively trying to suppress as many sounds as possible (which means that she has at least learned a bit how to control her vocal chords).
She never really goes into this. I assumed she was just born deaf. But the whole thing is, as long as you're breathing, you're going to make sounds (e.g., heavy breathing), and with the simple fact that the air has to go through your throat and mouth, you're capable of altering that sound (therefore, making sounds). Which she really doesn't do except for the occasional laugh, or some probably involuntary sounds during intercourse. The fact that she has an understanding of how people percieve sound, and yet cannot do so herself, is still quite interesting to me.
And yes, the Deaf are perfectly capable of learning how to speak. However, the issue is that they don't hear themselves and thus cannot adjust their voice to sound 'normal'. Even I as a Deaf guy with Cochlear Implant and hearing aid, having basically been hearing with those for almost my whole life, am not capable of speaking with a 'perfectly normal' voice: The first time you meet me you'll have to get adjusted to my voice... But pretty soon after that you'll be used to my voice (and I don't sound that much different, it is noticeable but not massive). But for me speaking is my 'primary' way of conversation, while most Deaf people would have Sign Language as their primary way of conversation so for those it'd be quite energy-consuming to a) learn how to speak properly, being unable to just 'imitate' the sounds... b) to concentrate every time when they're going to speak on how to form the sounds, as the spoken language for them will never replace the sign language they're so used to and is so easy to use for them. Also, as I indicated earlier, the Sign Language grammar and the spoken/written grammar differs. Now you obviously don't notice it from me as I've read a lot of books and basically expanded my vocabulary primarily that way, but for the Deaf whom are used to seeing Sign Language it is not uncommon that they have difficulties with spelling and grammar, as sign language is not really based on how a word is written (while spoken language is and therefore the spoken language might not be that easy to start learning it but once you mastered the basics you mastered most words while for sign language you need to learn all signs in order to utilize them) which means another barrier...

If you really can understand how Shizune thinks, why she behaves like that, then you'll understand her story better and perhaps like her better too. As for myself, she is just too competitive for me but aside from that I might actually consider someone like her.
Indeed. This has helped me understand her situation some, and in turn, that helps me understand why she is why she is, and therefore, helps me understand her better as a person. But I think most of the problems I have understanding her, while probably all somehow related to her deafness, are just with her curious personality itself.
ravenlord wrote:I think the routes are purposely driven differently to make sure that everyone likes at least one of the arcs. Shizune's was kind of the breather, low drama, logic paced, reality based story. At the other extreme is Rin's psychedelic adventure down the rabbit hole to dimensions unseen. These are the two routes most mentioned when people express a lack of ability to connect. The other three girls are more in the middle and so they are easier to connect with.

It's ok because I don't think you have to connect with all 5. You might want to finish the other girls, and then redo Shizune. You might find new depth to her or something that you missed earlier.

Rin is the one I have trouble with. I am going through her arc again as a learning excersize. I think that if I can deconstruct her and really understand her, then that will help me irl down the road if I ever meet anyone like her.
It stands to reason that the only reason there would be more than one girl to romance would be because they are different girls with different personalities and, ultimately, different stories. Those are going to connect with different people, and in different ways. Which is partially the beauty of Katawa Shoujo. And no, I don't think anyone who doesn't have multipler personalities could connect with all the characters the same way; Shizune and Lilly are pretty much designed to be nigh-opposites, and while I like them both, if I didn't have a preference for one (Lilly), it could only possibly be because I have a much deeper preference for one of the other characters (Emi or Rin; I think it's pretty clear to everyone that there are three pairs of friends; Lilly and Hanako, Shizune and Misha, Emi and Rin. One of them also tends to be the more outgoing one (Lilly because Hanako is shy; Misha because Shizune more or less can't be the outgoing one; Emi because Rin.)).

But yeah. I'm going to play Emi's story next. Part of me regrets not playing Emi instead of Shizune. It came down to the two of them, and for some strange reason I ended up leaning towards Shizune (though I can't say I wasn't persuaded by some endearing artwork and the fact that, visually, she reminds me of an old friend I've been talking to a lot recently). But I refuse to think that way, because I enjoyed the experience, and they're all experiences I'm going to have anyway. I'll force myself down Rin's after Emi's (the stumbling block for me is actually the creepy-as-all-hell art teacher) and then I have full intention to go back and play Lilly's and Shizune's, at least (the first for refreshment, and the second for a greater and less-sleep-deprived understanding).

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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by yummines » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:02 am

Jigoro is supposed to be the guy you love to hate. Though I still think Nomiya is far worse.

As for Shizune's route a lot of people say it's the "worst" though sometimes for the wrong reasons. I personally clicked better with Rin and Hanako. It may be the fact that it was kind of half finished (someone left the team in the middle of it) so the side characters (Hideki in particular) didn't get any kind of development and there was almost no conflict other than Misha being a little depressed (and those drills. cmon why did they have to go).

It wasn't too dramatic, and the romance was mainly "hey let's do it cause I'm in the mood to."

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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Shadowyeclipse » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:24 am

yummines wrote:Jigoro is supposed to be the guy you love to hate. Though I still think Nomiya is far worse.

As for Shizune's route a lot of people say it's the "worst" though sometimes for the wrong reasons. I personally clicked better with Rin and Hanako. It may be the fact that it was kind of half finished (someone left the team in the middle of it) so the side characters (Hideki in particular) didn't get any kind of development and there was almost no conflict other than Misha being a little depressed (and those drills. cmon why did they have to go).

It wasn't too dramatic, and the romance was mainly "hey let's do it cause I'm in the mood to."

I know how you feel. Misha instantly became unfuckable when she lost the drills.

Jigoro is more funny than he is an actual ass. Nomiya is a total ass, and I never thought he was amusing as I did Jigoro.

Plus, he yelled at Rin.

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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by OtakuNinja » Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:52 am

Xanatos wrote:Everyone hated Shizune's father. That's pretty much the one universal agreement in regard to her path. :lol:
I didn't. :(
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by ProfAllister » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:57 am

yummines wrote:It may be the fact that it was kind of half finished (someone left the team in the middle of it) so the side characters (Hideki in particular) didn't get any kind of development and there was almost no conflict other than Misha being a little depressed (and those drills. cmon why did they have to go).
WRONG!

One dev did leave in the middle of production. Cpl Crud. The Author of Hanako's route. Hanako's route was left half finished and taken over by a second author (Crud did act 2, Suriko did acts 3 and 4). To my understanding, A22 (the author of Shizune's route) was in it for the long haul. Furthermore, I believe it's been stated that A22 was one of the key authors for act 1 (Aura being the other), as well as the mind behind most of the side characters (particularly Yuuko and Kenji).

A22 clearly isn't interested in (publicly) engaging with the fanbase, and I understand he's a bit of an ass at times, but he doesn't deserve even half of the lies that have spread about him.

Complain about the route if you like. Criticise the writing, plot progression, or whatever. But don't spread this false rumor. It deserves to die in a fire.
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Ste » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:05 am

ProfAllister wrote: One dev did leave in the middle of production. Cpl Crud. The Author of Hanako's route. Hanako's route was left half finished and taken over by a second author (Crud did act 2, Suriko did acts 3 and 4). To my understanding, A22 (the author of Shizune's route) was in it for the long haul. Furthermore, I believe it's been stated that A22 was one of the key authors for act 1 (Aura being the other), as well as the mind behind most of the side characters (particularly Yuuko and Kenji).
Now I see why most of the side characters are so damn bad and the reason for the annoying and disproportionate Shizune & Misha's presence as side characters in ALL of the arcs.

The only finely written situations in the whole game involving either/both Shizune or/and Misha are the sex scene between Hisao and Misha and Hanako's panic attack. The rest is pure crap.

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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Kutagh » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:21 am

ProfAllister wrote:
yummines wrote:It may be the fact that it was kind of half finished (someone left the team in the middle of it) so the side characters (Hideki in particular) didn't get any kind of development and there was almost no conflict other than Misha being a little depressed (and those drills. cmon why did they have to go).
WRONG!

One dev did leave in the middle of production. Cpl Crud. The Author of Hanako's route. Hanako's route was left half finished and taken over by a second author (Crud did act 2, Suriko did acts 3 and 4). To my understanding, A22 (the author of Shizune's route) was in it for the long haul. Furthermore, I believe it's been stated that A22 was one of the key authors for act 1 (Aura being the other), as well as the mind behind most of the side characters (particularly Yuuko and Kenji).

A22 clearly isn't interested in (publicly) engaging with the fanbase, and I understand he's a bit of an ass at times, but he doesn't deserve even half of the lies that have spread about him.

Complain about the route if you like. Criticise the writing, plot progression, or whatever. But don't spread this false rumor. It deserves to die in a fire.
"It deserves to die in a fire." What a faux pas, considering you mentioned Hanako in the same post :P

And as for the conflicts: Not every conflict is visible. In Shizune's storyline the visible conflict is Misha, however both Hisao and Shizune are internally struggling as well with for example how to bridge the interpreter barrier, as it is not really romantic going out on a date with Shizune while Misha is interpreting between you and her, you basically miss the feeling of intimacy with Shizune. An extreme example: try confessing to someone through someone else...
Another internal struggle Shizune has is that she doesn't want to be just 'a deaf student', she wants to be significant in her own way, doing what she can. A smoothly running Student Council, organizing those events for the other students to enjoy, in her own way add something positive for the other students to remember rather than being just 'a deaf student who was a hassle to deal with' (remember the interpreter barrier and the fact that without knowing sign language you can't be sure that Misha gave you the precise translation and not a watered down or different translation).

I honestly have to say that 4LS did their research very well when writing those characters: How they cope with it, what challenges they might have and so onwards, without ever trying to portray them as 'sad people who need help' (especially Hanako's route shows that you should treat them almost like normal people). Unfortunately, to truly appreciate some routes, you need about the same knowledge.

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Oddball
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Oddball » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:04 pm

And as for the conflicts: Not every conflict is visible. In Shizune's storyline the visible conflict is Misha, however both Hisao and Shizune are internally struggling as well with for example how to bridge the interpreter barrier, as it is not really romantic going out on a date with Shizune while Misha is interpreting between you and her, you basically miss the feeling of intimacy with Shizune. An extreme example: try confessing to someone through someone else...
Another internal struggle Shizune has is that she doesn't want to be just 'a deaf student', she wants to be significant in her own way, doing what she can. A smoothly running Student Council, organizing those events for the other students to enjoy, in her own way add something positive for the other students to remember rather than being just 'a deaf student who was a hassle to deal with' (remember the interpreter barrier and the fact that without knowing sign language you can't be sure that Misha gave you the precise translation and not a watered down or different translation).
It would have been nice if the game had done more than just vaguely hint at this.
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Kutagh
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by Kutagh » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:04 pm

Oddball wrote:It would have been nice if the game had done more than just vaguely hint at this.
So how should it have been done then?
The language barrier, you see Hisao struggling with conversing one-to-one and learning sign language to overcome the language barrier. After having achieved a decent skill in sign language he and Shizune are finally getting intimate as Shizune can finally talk to him without having to talk through Misha.
Shizune herself was talking about why she was organizing those events.

This is a storyline that requires reading between the lines, to connect the dots, as well as some background information as opposed to some very explicit storylines. Why? Because it is trying to show you that people do not tell everything, just like Lilly didn't tell Hisao about Scotland. People try to deal with the problems themselves and the story is being told from the point of view of Hisao, so we don't know what Shizune is thinking (the unreliable narrator).

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FoxtrotZero
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Re: So I've finished Shizune's story

Post by FoxtrotZero » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:54 pm

Shadowyeclipse wrote:
yummines wrote:Jigoro is supposed to be the guy you love to hate. Though I still think Nomiya is far worse.

As for Shizune's route a lot of people say it's the "worst" though sometimes for the wrong reasons. I personally clicked better with Rin and Hanako. It may be the fact that it was kind of half finished (someone left the team in the middle of it) so the side characters (Hideki in particular) didn't get any kind of development and there was almost no conflict other than Misha being a little depressed (and those drills. cmon why did they have to go).

It wasn't too dramatic, and the romance was mainly "hey let's do it cause I'm in the mood to."

I know how you feel. Misha instantly became unfuckable when she lost the drills.

Jigoro is more funny than he is an actual ass. Nomiya is a total ass, and I never thought he was amusing as I did Jigoro.

Plus, he yelled at Rin.

Oh-wait
I'll be honest, I didn't even consider Misha attractive until the drills disappeared. And while some of the things Jigoro said were funny, he was kind of an asshole to begin with, and when he and Hisao got in the argument about Shizune I started to truly hate him. I also had a revelation this morning; when I took the bad ending with Misha, the sad picture of Shizune at the end, and what it kinda all meant, that's when it hit me just how sad it was and how much I cared.

Between these two facts, perhaps I liked Shizune on a more discrete level, just like the conflict and emotion in her arc is a bit more discrete. *shrug*
Ste wrote:
ProfAllister wrote: One dev did leave in the middle of production. Cpl Crud. The Author of Hanako's route. Hanako's route was left half finished and taken over by a second author (Crud did act 2, Suriko did acts 3 and 4). To my understanding, A22 (the author of Shizune's route) was in it for the long haul. Furthermore, I believe it's been stated that A22 was one of the key authors for act 1 (Aura being the other), as well as the mind behind most of the side characters (particularly Yuuko and Kenji).
Now I see why most of the side characters are so damn bad and the reason for the annoying and disproportionate Shizune & Misha's presence as side characters in ALL of the arcs.

The only finely written situations in the whole game involving either/both Shizune or/and Misha are the sex scene between Hisao and Misha and Hanako's panic attack. The rest is pure crap.
Yuuko never meant much to me and Kenji wasn't really a tolerable character outside of Shizune's route. Likewise, yes, Misha and Shizune do occur a lot in other people's acts, but that's at least partially justified in that they're in several of Hisao's classes and they are the type of people to rope him into a conversation, like it or not.

Also, I think when you said "sex scene" you meant "the scene after what would be the sex scene, regardless of if it did or didn't actually become a sex scene", because the scene itself was kinda lame (which wasn't helped by the fact that you both know you're cheating on Shizune, the game music reflects this, and Misha isn't too into it because of the aforementioned knowledge and the fact that she's actually (up until this point?) a lesbian). The rooftop scene was the first time I actually saw Misha in an emotional light, and it was enough of an emotional guilt trip to make me go back and take the bad end.
Reccomended Fanfic: Sisterhood by Guest Poster - Braving the Storm by Doomish - Akira Pseudo-Route (WIP) by Thanatos02
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