The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

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Oddball
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Re: The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

Post by Oddball » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:33 pm

So much [citation needed].
Most of my info comes from comments on the Shimmie and snooping around the old development forum (and some of the really old posts here as well.)
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Re: The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

Post by Guest Poster » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:58 am

You're right, not the thread. I'm sure we'll get the opportunity at some point. :)
so we can leave this like we always do: You keep your rose-tinted glasses while I grab my shades and the flashy-thingy.
Works for me. :)
I think the one I heard about Hanako is the 'muffin in the oven'-ending where the entire story went dark with Hanako carrying...well, let's just say she's a mother.
That one was actually her best and "true" end...despite having a truckload of unfortunate implications.
The Shizune one involves Misha dying due to a car accident and Shizune committing suicide due to depression. Though, that's what I heard
That's what I heard too. That would have been an interesting twist on her character, though it seems out-of-character for her current incarnation. It WOULD be interesting to see how she'd handle an event she can't compartmentalize like she usually does with stuff.
I heard that Misha was supposed to die in an earlier version, but I didn't know Shizune was supposed to commit suicide over it.
I believe that Misha dying was more or less the split point and whether Shizune killed herself over it depended on whether you got the good or bad ending. This one was obviously her bad ending.
No. The one I'm talking abut is a lot darker than that.
Apparently an earlier plan was that you could actually switch routes mid-game, and if you started off with Hanako but abandoned her and went ater Rin instead, Hanako eventually flips out, kidnaps and murders Rin, and I think a few other people, all while cackling like some kind of supervillian, and ends up killing Hisao as well.
Actually, I believe what you're referring to was simply a one-shot piece crpCrud wrote at some point. I don't think it ever got into the game. The prototype route involved Hanako's route either ending with Hisao dying or, if you made it to the end by picking the right choices, Hanako committing suicide.
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Pseudogenesis
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Re: The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

Post by Pseudogenesis » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:09 am

Guest Poster wrote: Actually, I believe what you're referring to was simply a one-shot piece crpCrud wrote at some point. I don't think it ever got into the game. The prototype route involved Hanako's route either ending with Hisao dying or, if you made it to the end by picking the right choices, Hanako committing suicide.

>pick the right choices, or your waifu won't commit suicide :(


Works for me.
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Re: The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

Post by Megumeru » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:32 am

Someone ought to write a fic involving massive character death or psychological breakdown that leads to it...

Hanako would look great in a white gown and sexy as hell crawling out from that well...or a TV :twisted:
...
Anyway...

I got my info from snooping around the shimmie, some Youtube vids, and word of mouth. If KS actually pull that kind of story upon release, however, I doubt it would hold the same level of 'weight', maturity, and respect it did as this version; it could end up as nothing more than a bishoujo eroge with crippled girls who were broken far more than their physic with a douche-of-a-main character who took advantage of them and their situation.

This version of KS made us see the characters as they are: as human with their flaws. It feels realistic--real, even. And that's bad; the good kind of bad. Unlike other bishoujo eroge/VN, you don't see any of them as a hot bang-bang material in the end of the story, do you? :)
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Re: The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

Post by OtakuNinja » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:58 am

The Hakamichi route: Worst? :?
The Hakamichi thread: Best! :D

Oddball wrote:I remember reading an early possible Hanako ending where she went psycho and murdered everyone.
"U-um, excuse me, I'm g-gonna k-k-kill you"
I want this fanfic! :lol:
Guest Poster wrote:
No. The one I'm talking abut is a lot darker than that.
Apparently an earlier plan was that you could actually switch routes mid-game, and if you started off with Hanako but abandoned her and went ater Rin instead, Hanako eventually flips out, kidnaps and murders Rin, and I think a few other people, all while cackling like some kind of supervillian, and ends up killing Hisao as well.
Actually, I believe what you're referring to was simply a one-shot piece crpCrud wrote at some point. I don't think it ever got into the game. The prototype route involved Hanako's route either ending with Hisao dying or, if you made it to the end by picking the right choices, Hanako committing suicide.
So the good end was Hanako commiting suicide and the bad end was Hisao dying? Sounds legit. :|
As always, I want a fanfic. :P
Megumeru wrote:Someone ought to write a fic involving massive character death or psychological breakdown that leads to it...
YES :lol:
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Re: The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

Post by yummines » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:43 am

I think its good that 4LS avoided going down the Yandere route though. it helps you take the story more seriously than just a girl who goes on a homicidal rampage just cause someone rejected her.

i really hate it when drama is made in a story simply by just making someone die, rather than actually having some compelling reason why someone hates the other or feels bad.

for instance Shizune is sad because Misha confessed to her and was rejected yet still has affection. that's fine. but Shizune is sad because Misha died in a random car accident. that's taking the easy way out.

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Re: The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

Post by Guest Poster » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:28 am

So the good end was Hanako commiting suicide and the bad end was Hisao dying? Sounds legit.
Apparantly, Hisao getting himself killed was the premature bad end and Hanako killing herself was the "true bad end" which was required to get to Hanako's "true good end" where she got preggers. Which is a bit of a headscratcher if you think about it...after forcing the player to go through a route that very much characterizes Hanako as a ticking timebomb, the game would then try to convince the player that the best way to make that timebomb's psychological issues go away is by getting her knocked up...that's often a recipe for disaster in real life.
I got my info from snooping around the shimmie, some Youtube vids, and word of mouth. If KS actually pull that kind of story upon release, however, I doubt it would hold the same level of 'weight', maturity, and respect it did as this version; it could end up as nothing more than a bishoujo eroge with crippled girls who were broken far more than their physic with a douche-of-a-main character who took advantage of them and their situation.

This version of KS made us see the characters as they are: as human with their flaws. It feels realistic--real, even. And that's bad; the good kind of bad. Unlike other bishoujo eroge/VN, you don't see any of them as a hot bang-bang material in the end of the story, do you?
I completely agree. The characters in KS are far more relatable exactly BECAUSE the devs didn't take the easy way out and tossed cheap drama like random deaths into the mix.
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Re: The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

Post by zetsubouwalker » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:23 pm

I just thought that although shes a deaf-mute that there was more text in her route than any of the other ones.
Of course I don't have the actual numerical values for the routes, I thought there was a lot more text-to-action ratio than the other routes.
Loved it regardless, but still.

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Re: The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

Post by Xanatos » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:55 pm

Megumeru wrote:you don't see any of them as a hot bang-bang material in the end of the story, do you? :)
Only if it's the good end. Hell, doesn't Emi's story literally end in a (non-hospital) bed? XD
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Re: The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

Post by Megumeru » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:58 am

zetsubouwalker wrote:I just thought that although shes a deaf-mute that there was more text in her route than any of the other ones.
Of course I don't have the actual numerical values for the routes, I thought there was a lot more text-to-action ratio than the other routes.
Loved it regardless, but still.
Her route is txt-context heavy that is chock-full of cultural references that compliments Hisao and Shizune's relationship as well as in and around Misha. It's easily missable if you're unfamiliar with it.

Most importantly, her route is all about reading/understanding her chain of thoughts and what she expects from Hisao; it's like breaking the communication barrier, so to speak.
Xanatos wrote:
Megumeru wrote:you don't see any of them as a hot bang-bang material in the end of the story, do you? :)
Only if it's the good end. Hell, doesn't Emi's story literally end in a (non-hospital) bed? XD
:lol: so true. Have a cookie :)
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Re: The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

Post by Galliano » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:15 pm

I actually liked Shizune's route, the only bad point for me was that it ended to abruptly. To me it would have been better if it had a downer part where the current ending is, making you think everything was hopeless and going wrong, then finally finishing out with a happy ending after that (speaking of the good ending of course).
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Re: The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

Post by pip25 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:20 pm

I'm pretty late to the party, glad to see there's still some discussion going on. :)

I do not think Shizune's route is bad, even though I used to. However, since it was the route I played last, it kept nagging me to make sense of it, and now I say Shizune's route, similarly to Rin's, requires you to think and pay careful attention to things, although in a very different way compared to what was going on with Rin.
A common theme in many of the KS stories is distance; the distance between Hisao and his love interest, or the distance between said love interest and people in general. In most cases, this "wall" is roughly composed of a single layer, which Hisao needs to get through (with Emi and perhaps Lilly) or simply has to accept its existence (with Rin and even Hanako to a lesser extent). With Shizune, it's a lot more complicated: some walls crumble, others remain, and unlike in the other routes Hisao does not really comment on this. (More about this later.) It's up to the readers to notice such facts, and those who don't might make the same mistake I did and write the story off as shallow.
The first obvious "wall" is simple communication. I have to admit: I hated Shizune in Act 1. She came off as aggressive, unfair and pompous. When I went for her route, I tried desperately to get around having to side with her during the argument with Lilly, because it just seemed so unfair. (No such luck, of course.) Hisao might have been falling in love with her (a little) as early as during the festival, but I sure wasn't. All the bigger was my shock, though, when Hisao started learning the sign language and the two of them began to communicate directly - it was like I was seeing a completely different person. Her attitude suddenly began to make sense. I found myself growing to like her, despite her obvious faults and my earlier distaste. Naturally, this was no simple coincidence - Shizune herself comments later on how the fact that she can only talk through an interpreter most of the time distances her from others.
This first "wall"is rather easy though. The second I did not really grasp during my first playthrough at all. What does Shizune think about romance? Just how many boyfriends did she have before Hisao? My rough estimate: none. During much of Act 3 and 4, she and Hisao try to determine, now that they're dating, just what the heck are they supposed to do with it. Actually, Rin faces a similar problem in her own route, only she vocalizes her concern - Shizune, on the other hand, doesn't. She simply remains distant, or when she gets fed up with that, tries to move forward in awkward ways, such as that "tied-to-a-chair" scene during the visit to her family. And of course, she then recoils because she notices how, well, awkward the whole thing was. Shizune being who she is, making this soul-searching a group effort with Hisao is out of the question, which is why their relationship fails to normalize until the end of Act 4 (in the good ending path); mind you, it happens right after she lets Hisao take the lead in patching things up with Misha, showcasing her character development.
There's a third "wall" in their relationship, however, which I believe stays in place until the very end. I think someone described this earlier in the thread as Hisao and Shizune being "intellectual lovers". Even at the best of times, when Shizune is not avoiding Hisao, heck, even right after making love in the student council room, their interaction feels slightly... "distant". There's no hand-holding, no stolen kisses or anything of the sort. This is, first of all, a physical limitation, since they have to keep each other in view with their hands free to communicate, which can make even romantic rooftop lunches uncomfortably quiet - but there's also more to it than that. Simply put, some people do not convey their love through frequent physical contact. Some would want to hug every person they come across, others shy away from such activity in general. Shizune is apparently the latter type. I would also wager that the second wall crumbled a bit too late for them: by the time they could get more "lovey-dovey", graduation is already here; it's telling that Hisao tells her "I love you" for what I believe is the first time in the very last scene.

What makes all this stuff much harder to spot than normal is how different Hisao's narration feels compared to other routes. Usually, when there's a problem, he brings it up. If Emi's not letting him close, he'll have internal monologues fuming about it. This time, however, he acts almost like an unreliable narrator in many ways. Why? Well, I think it's because he's busy. No, really.
Each of the girls have their own "strategy" or trait to pull Hisao out of his initial depression; for Shizune, it means making him busy enough that he'll simply lack the time to mope. (This is an oversimplification, but bear with me.) It works surprisingly well, too, but as a side-effect, it makes serious problems that would be better off discussed fall between the cracks of time, err, I mean the latest student council meeting - or whatever Shizune is making them do at that moment. This is the most obvious after the visit to her family: Hisao wants to talk to her about what happened there, but never gets the chance, and by the time the whole misery with Misha starts he actually forgets about it. Since Hisao is our narrator and sole source of information, if he forgets about bringing up issues, chances are the readers might forget about them too if they're not careful. Whether this is a bad decision from the script writer is up to personal taste, I suppose, but once you know what to watch out for, I feel it can get rather interesting, since this trait leaves Shizune's route much more open to interpretation compared to others. :)

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Re: The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

Post by OtakuNinja » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:01 am

Wow... Wall of text, coming through~ :P
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Re: The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

Post by pip25 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:18 pm

Yeah, guess I went overboard a little. XD But hey, at least I used paragraphs... not that they're very visible. :P

TLDR: Shizune's route isn't bad I think, it has a lot going on, but you need to pay careful attention to notice. This also makes it more open to interpretation, which I consider a plus in this case.

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Re: The Hakamichi route is the worst? (Spoilers)

Post by Nicendeth » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:41 pm

pip25 wrote:Yeah, guess I went overboard a little. XD But hey, at least I used paragraphs... not that they're very visible. :P

TLDR: Shizune's route isn't bad I think, it has a lot going on, but you need to pay careful attention to notice. This also makes it more open to interpretation, which I consider a plus in this case.
I agree to an extent; even though I think the fact it's full of subtexts and heightened interpretations applies to most parts of the game, subtext is less subtext and more context in Shizune's arc, if that makes any sense. Rin's has a ton of subtext too though.

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