Re-reading KS after many other VNs

[Camoufrage]

the idea of having disabled characters in KS is shoehorned as well.

If you're just not going to make sense, this is a pointless discussion. To claim that having disabled characters in a game where the entire concept and story is completely based upon disabled characters is shoehorning is just...Good god, Lewis Carroll couldn't be more nonsensical. And he was probably on drugs.

That was a pretty awful example, I will give myself that much. Didn't think too hard on that one.

All I'm trying to say is that you are mindlessly bashing a game series and not recognizing its good parts by saying they are "shoehorned" because they don't fit with the other parts of the game. Arent those other parts of the game BAD AND STALE? why would you want it to be the same. Sorry but I didn't know that every single part of a game has to be exactly the same and within reality because its apparently a realistic shooter? Isn't that exactly what you DONT want from Call of Duty? For some reason I think you don't even have experience with the zombies mode and you simply call it off as being something dumb. Which is understandable, I thought the idea is STUPID at first swell. Albeit that was 3 years ago and now I'm all for it.

Its the best part of the COD games, and injected new stuff into the series. Yet you still moan and complain that they aren't changing enough, than when they do you call it shoehorned? Games completely change all of the game. Grand Theft Auto used to be a top down arcadey shoot em up, now its a TPS with a very deep storyline and serious tones with satire mixed in. Fallout used to be completely different for gods sake. Of course these games still keep the original setting, but that's about it. Its still the same general concept. Okay so COD is getting stale? Why not change it from a pseudo realistic shitty arcade unbalanced shooter to a great survival game to play with friends and give it a good plot line and replayability. To tell you the truth you can't say that about many games these days.

[WorldlyWiseman]

I think one of the main reasons (at least for me) that KS is so special, is that it was written be westerners. We have different mindsets, philosophies etc. Even small stuff, like easter eggs and pop culture references and stuff like that. Its much closer to us.

>implying everyone on this forum is westerner

Are you being ironically racist or accidentally racist or what?

lolwut. I am just saying that not everyone on this forum is from "west" countries. Just majority of people. If you reffering to the first part of the post, then no, there is nothing racist in that. People, cultures and philosophies, outlooks on life are different in different countries.

I don't have anything left t say on the subject, just wanted to apologize for being a jerk for no reason. I think I just misunderstood you, Babli.

Stuff about expensive games

My statement was rather glib and made without doing my research, I apologize. I was imagining that the more expensive VNs were along the lines of collector edition MMOs that package in a lot of incentives for purchase and rely on fans loving the game beyond measure. I was meaning for my statement to be about how the MMO-style example had more to do with someone controlling that scarcity and benefiting from it, whereas the Atari cart would be rare just for still existing. But I guess the seller of the rare cart stands to benefit from that rarity.

I'd rather people at least consider my point about later experiences with a genre having things that are more specific to the tastes that they are uncovering for themselves, and finding that their earlier experiences only had more general versions of those elements and a such feel like a letdown.

[stanman237]

LOL when I made the comparison I meant in sales and somehow we ended up with a flame war about FPS on a KS forum.......

My bad

[Pyramid Head]

zombies mode

Creating an entire mode in a game where zombies have no business being just for the sake of "OMG LET'S PUT ZOMBIES HERE!" is the very definition of shoehorned. It doesn't matter how long they've been there if they don't belong and in a reality-based war shooter, they don't belong

Point being? Then multi player is shoehorned because one day they were playing a war shooter and said "OMG LETS PUT MULTIPLAYER HERE" and the idea of having disabled characters in KS is shoehorned as well. Who cares if its shoehorned? Its a great part of the game is hasn't been "shoehorned" in 3 years. Yes sure it was shoehorned in WaW but since its been a mainstay for the franchise, just as any part of the series.

Saying something doesn't belong in a certain game is absurd when it helps the game.

They put zombies in the game because they thought it would be a fun addition to the game not because OMG ZOMBIES. The fact that the zombies mode has one of the deepest plots and story lines intertwined within the game is evidence of that. They didn't just throw it in. They worked hard on it because there is a fan base for it.

The idea behind shoehorning something is the same idea as injecting new life into something

That's the idea, but you're naive if you think that's how it works. Shoehorning in stupid bullshit like a zombie mode or multiplayer is a crutch used by bad developers like Activision and Epic Games, not an injection of new life. The zombie mode doesn't help the game, it kills it. It makes it abundantly clear there is nothing innovative or interesting, they literally have you more or less beating a dead horse. Zombies themselves haven't been in any good games since the PS2 era and even then you can make a strong argument that the Los Ganados and Heaven Smiles aren't zombies. Shoehorning at this stage is a derogatory term, nothing good has ever been "Shoehorned in." It's always been bad things that were inserted like quick time events, zombie mode, multiplayer, vehicle sections, moral choice systems, and mandatory stealth.

Oh also, i feel i need to bitch slap you for some of your justifications for the World at War zombie mode. Zombie modes don't require hard work since, as Square Enix can testify after the horrifically awful MindJack, one of the hardest programming portions of shooting games is the artificial intelligence, and zombies don't need a sophisticated AI since they almost always attack mindlessly. The fact that Left 4 Dead can be considered high end because the special infected attack from different angles and even ambush and react to noise and light gives you an idea of just what type of low end crap zombie games really are. And, one last thing to remind you of, Twilight and Dead Space have fanbases. That doesn't make them any less insulting.

Lastly, your assertions that the disabled elements of Katawa Shoujo were shoehorned in. Not completely untrue but at the same time when an element actually makes something MORE difficult to write it hardly deserves to be on the same page as fucking Black Ops. If it was just a gimmick of a dating sim like the original Raita plan you would have some merit, but since it created a lot of pitfalls when the Four Leaf team decided to build it around people continuing to live despite physical problems, it was taking on an extra challenge and not just the typical shoehorning of lazy dev teams.

[Camoufrage]

Creating an entire mode in a game where zombies have no business being just for the sake of "OMG LET'S PUT ZOMBIES HERE!" is the very definition of shoehorned. It doesn't matter how long they've been there if they don't belong and in a reality-based war shooter, they don't belong

Point being? Then multi player is shoehorned because one day they were playing a war shooter and said "OMG LETS PUT MULTIPLAYER HERE" and the idea of having disabled characters in KS is shoehorned as well. Who cares if its shoehorned? Its a great part of the game is hasn't been "shoehorned" in 3 years. Yes sure it was shoehorned in WaW but since its been a mainstay for the franchise, just as any part of the series.

Saying something doesn't belong in a certain game is absurd when it helps the game.

They put zombies in the game because they thought it would be a fun addition to the game not because OMG ZOMBIES. The fact that the zombies mode has one of the deepest plots and story lines intertwined within the game is evidence of that. They didn't just throw it in. They worked hard on it because there is a fan base for it.

The idea behind shoehorning something is the same idea as injecting new life into something

That's the idea, but you're naive if you think that's how it works. Shoehorning in stupid bullshit like a zombie mode or multiplayer is a crutch used by bad developers like Activision and Epic Games, not an injection of new life. The zombie mode doesn't help the game, it kills it. It makes it abundantly clear there is nothing innovative or interesting, they literally have you more or less beating a dead horse. Zombies themselves haven't been in any good games since the PS2 era and even then you can make a strong argument that the Los Ganados and Heaven Smiles aren't zombies. Shoehorning at this stage is a derogatory term, nothing good has ever been "Shoehorned in." It's always been bad things that were inserted like quick time events, zombie mode, multiplayer, vehicle sections, moral choice systems, and mandatory stealth.

Oh also, i feel i need to bitch slap you for some of your justifications for the World at War zombie mode. Zombie modes don't require hard work since, as Square Enix can testify after the horrifically awful MindJack, one of the hardest programming portions of shooting games is the artificial intelligence, and zombies don't need a sophisticated AI since they almost always attack mindlessly. The fact that Left 4 Dead can be considered high end because the special infected attack from different angles and even ambush and react to noise and light gives you an idea of just what type of low end crap zombie games really are. And, one last thing to remind you of, Twilight and Dead Space have fanbases. That doesn't make them any less insulting.

Lastly, your assertions that the disabled elements of Katawa Shoujo were shoehorned in. Not completely untrue but at the same time when an element actually makes something MORE difficult to write it hardly deserves to be on the same page as fucking Black Ops. If it was just a gimmick of a dating sim like the original Raita plan you would have some merit, but since it created a lot of pitfalls when the Four Leaf team decided to build it around people continuing to live despite physical problems, it was taking on an extra challenge and not just the typical shoehorning of lazy dev teams.

Zombies have been in plenty good games. RDRs Undead Nightmare. walking Dead game, Lollipop Chainsaw (such good fun), but that's all I can think of at at the top of my head. If you bothered to read any of my other posts I retracted what I said about crippled people in KS. I was in a pretty fucking shitty mood earlier, most of the stuff I said was pretty ducking stupid

I'm a big fan of the original Dead Space by the way.

Plus I never said anything about zombie AI. They didn't work hard on WaW zombies. It was a mod. They did work pretty damn hard on Black Oops zombies and definitely BO2 zombies. AI isn't the only thing that equals hard work

[Pyramid Head]

Zombies have been in plenty good games. RDRs Undead Nightmare. walking Dead game, Lollipop Chainsaw (such good fun), but that's all I can think of at at the top of my head. If you bothered to read any of my other posts I retracted what I said about crippled people in KS. I was in a pretty fucking shitty mood earlier, most of the stuff I said was pretty ducking stupid

I'm a big fan of the original Dead Space by the way.

Okay now THAT was just cruel. I have been a huge fan of Suda51 ever since Killer 7 and bring up his most stupid and formulaic release ever was just a dick move.
Anyway what you said about KS isn't wrong. The disabled elements? That WAS shoehorned in. Remember, even though the final product turned out great Katawa Shoujo was based on a bad concept dug up on 4Chan, ignoring a spotted history is not a practice that should be engaged in because there is a lesson that can be learned. And fine if you want to bring up games where the zombies weren't just some stupid idea, i actually kind of liked the Dead Rising series, though haven't gotten the chance to pick up the Game of the Year edition for Red Dead Redemption, i still only have the original since i have problems accessing Xbox Live.
Still, i don't think Rockstar North should be in this conversation, even if they mostly do shooters they seem to be the ONLY major dev team trying innovation these days. Red Dead Redemption was actually really good, Grand Theft Auto 4 exists to sooth my wounded balls after Saint's Row: The Third came out kind of stupid, L.A Noire was much closer to a good investigative mystery games than the Ace Attorney games ever were (Though that has more to do with the fact that Capcom's writing staff is fucking stupid), and Max Payne 3 probably had the most solid gameplay in a mindless violence shooter since Shinji Mikami's Vanquish.

That said, i have a major problem with Dead Space as a survival horror fan. Dead Space isn't survival horror, it's essentially a more gore focused Resident Evil 4 clone. It doesn't have anything resembling atmospheric pacing and isn't scary in the least, but still some people try to put it in my much beloved genre. Survival horror is dead largely because of people who think Dead Space counts as something in that genre, though the fucking stupid American developers of the recent Silent Hill games haven't helped. I mean Origins and Homecoming... Jesus's balls were those an insult. I don't think console games have had a game that actually counted as survival horror since...
...well wait, i guess Silent Hill Downpour can count since combat is avoidable, but it's still not that scary. Unless you have a game capable PC and can check out Amnesia: The Dark Descent or picked up the HD collection of Silent Hill, don't count on playing a survival horror game ever again.

Now if you'll excuse me, that last sentence makes me feel the need to weep.

[Camoufrage]

Zombies have been in plenty good games. RDRs Undead Nightmare. walking Dead game, Lollipop Chainsaw (such good fun), but that's all I can think of at at the top of my head. If you bothered to read any of my other posts I retracted what I said about crippled people in KS. I was in a pretty fucking shitty mood earlier, most of the stuff I said was pretty ducking stupid

I'm a big fan of the original Dead Space by the way.

Okay now THAT was just cruel. I have been a huge fan of Suda51 ever since Killer 7 and bring up his most stupid and formulaic release ever was just a dick move.
Anyway what you said about KS isn't wrong. The disabled elements? That WAS shoehorned in. Remember, even though the final product turned out great Katawa Shoujo was based on a bad concept dug up on 4Chan, ignoring a spotted history is not a practice that should be engaged in because there is a lesson that can be learned. And fine if you want to bring up games where the zombies weren't just some stupid idea, i actually kind of liked the Dead Rising series, though haven't gotten the chance to pick up the Game of the Year edition for Red Dead Redemption, i still only have the original since i have problems accessing Xbox Live.
Still, i don't think Rockstar North should be in this conversation, even if they mostly do shooters they seem to be the ONLY major dev team trying innovation these days. Red Dead Redemption was actually really good, Grand Theft Auto 4 exists to sooth my wounded balls after Saint's Row: The Third came out kind of stupid, L.A Noire was much closer to a good investigative mystery games than the Ace Attorney games ever were (Though that has more to do with the fact that Capcom's writing staff is fucking stupid), and Max Payne 3 probably had the most solid gameplay in a mindless violence shooter since Shinji Mikami's Vanquish.

That said, i have a major problem with Dead Space as a survival horror fan. Dead Space isn't survival horror, it's essentially a more gore focused Resident Evil 4 clone. It doesn't have anything resembling atmospheric pacing and isn't scary in the least, but still some people try to put it in my much beloved genre. Survival horror is dead largely because of people who think Dead Space counts as something in that genre, though the fucking stupid American developers of the recent Silent Hill games haven't helped. I mean Origins and Homecoming... Jesus's balls were those an insult. I don't think console games have had a game that actually counted as survival horror since...
...well wait, i guess Silent Hill Downpour can count since combat is avoidable, but it's still not that scary. Unless you have a game capable PC and can check out Amnesia: The Dark Descent or picked up the HD collection of Silent Hill, don't count on playing a survival horror game ever again.

Now if you'll excuse me, that last sentence makes me feel the need to weep.

Doesn't make Lollipop Chainsaw a bad game. And max Payne 3 sucked lol. It was nothing but cut scenes at the most inconvenient times and generic shooting done better in the last 2 games. Downpour was pretty crappy too. Plus the HD Collection had such awful graphical problems I couldn't stand it.

I'm a huge survival horror fan but I like the DS series because its fun and has genuinely scared the shit out of me at times. Also, RDR is one of my favorite games ever, just saying. Undead Nightmare is still a zombie game and you specifically said no good zombies games since PS2, which is kinda bullshit

All I want to say is when I play COD I play for mindless fun that's easy to get into. Now what is the zombies mode in COD? Mindless fun that's easy to get into. It fits in the same category as the rest of the game and frankly is the last good part of the series so it belongs. Without it I would never buy another COD. Jeez I think a lot better when not pissed off. How much easier would this whole convo had been if I had just wrote that?

So basically KS shoehorned crippled girls in the first place but it was good so no one complains. But if the shoehourned part of the game is the ONLY good part of a game why should it be bashed and told it doesn't belong? If its the only thing that could possibly justify a purchase shouldn't it be praised? if the not the whole game just the part?

[Pyramid Head]

Zombies have been in plenty good games. RDRs Undead Nightmare. walking Dead game, Lollipop Chainsaw (such good fun), but that's all I can think of at at the top of my head. If you bothered to read any of my other posts I retracted what I said about crippled people in KS. I was in a pretty fucking shitty mood earlier, most of the stuff I said was pretty ducking stupid

I'm a big fan of the original Dead Space by the way.

Okay now THAT was just cruel. I have been a huge fan of Suda51 ever since Killer 7 and bring up his most stupid and formulaic release ever was just a dick move.
Anyway what you said about KS isn't wrong. The disabled elements? That WAS shoehorned in. Remember, even though the final product turned out great Katawa Shoujo was based on a bad concept dug up on 4Chan, ignoring a spotted history is not a practice that should be engaged in because there is a lesson that can be learned. And fine if you want to bring up games where the zombies weren't just some stupid idea, i actually kind of liked the Dead Rising series, though haven't gotten the chance to pick up the Game of the Year edition for Red Dead Redemption, i still only have the original since i have problems accessing Xbox Live.
Still, i don't think Rockstar North should be in this conversation, even if they mostly do shooters they seem to be the ONLY major dev team trying innovation these days. Red Dead Redemption was actually really good, Grand Theft Auto 4 exists to sooth my wounded balls after Saint's Row: The Third came out kind of stupid, L.A Noire was much closer to a good investigative mystery games than the Ace Attorney games ever were (Though that has more to do with the fact that Capcom's writing staff is fucking stupid), and Max Payne 3 probably had the most solid gameplay in a mindless violence shooter since Shinji Mikami's Vanquish.

That said, i have a major problem with Dead Space as a survival horror fan. Dead Space isn't survival horror, it's essentially a more gore focused Resident Evil 4 clone. It doesn't have anything resembling atmospheric pacing and isn't scary in the least, but still some people try to put it in my much beloved genre. Survival horror is dead largely because of people who think Dead Space counts as something in that genre, though the fucking stupid American developers of the recent Silent Hill games haven't helped. I mean Origins and Homecoming... Jesus's balls were those an insult. I don't think console games have had a game that actually counted as survival horror since...
...well wait, i guess Silent Hill Downpour can count since combat is avoidable, but it's still not that scary. Unless you have a game capable PC and can check out Amnesia: The Dark Descent or picked up the HD collection of Silent Hill, don't count on playing a survival horror game ever again.

Now if you'll excuse me, that last sentence makes me feel the need to weep.

Doesn't make Lollipop Chainsaw a bad game. And max Payne 3 sucked lol. It was nothing but cut scenes at the most inconvenient times and generic shooting done better in the last 2 games. Downpour was pretty crappy too. Plus the HD Collection had such awful graphical problems I couldn't stand it.

I'm a huge survival horror fan but I like the DS series because its fun and has genuinely scared the shit out of me at times. Also, RDR is one of my favorite games ever, just saying. Undead Nightmare is still a zombie game and you specifically said no good zombies games since PS2, which is kinda bullshit

All I want to say is when I play COD I play for mindless fun that's easy to get into. Now what is the zombies mode in COD? Mindless fun that's easy to get into. It fits in the same category as the rest of the game and frankly is the last good part of the series so it belongs. Without it I would never buy another COD. Jeez I think a lot better when not pissed off. How much easier would this whole convo had been if I had just wrote that?

So basically KS shoehorned crippled girls in the first place but it was good so no one complains. But if the shoehourned part of the game is the ONLY good part of a game why should it be bashed and told it doesn't belong? If its the only thing that could possibly justify a purchase shouldn't it be praised? if the not the whole game just the part?

I never had problems with the HD collection because i have it on a 360 and my TV can't run HD anyway. Plus, i can't see where your praise for Dead Space is coming from. In terms of third person shooting i've always found Shinji Mikami games (Resident Evil 4, Vanquish, Shadows of the Damned) were far better than what Visceral delivered, and that the stupid plot of Dead Space and pretty bad pacing just kept bogging it down. And it was never frightening. Grotesque? Maybe, but i'm used to that. Scary? Well it has some jump out scares, but that doesn't count. I was startled when i didn't notice a group of Scoia'tel were attacking in The Witcher II: Assassins of Kings, that doesn't make that item count as horror either. Horror is where the atmosphere and gameplay put you in a state of mind where anything scares you. Dead Space doesn't have that atmosphere, or really much of anything in my mind.

Lastly, if you want mindless fun, Saint's Row 2 is infinitely superior to Call of Duty and if you really want it, there is a zombie mini-game in it, plus a minigame where you shoot raw sewage at buildings. Just don't touch Saint's Row: The Third with a ten foot pole, that one was a fucking disgrace, and NOT just because you couldn't shoot raw sewage at buildings. Shadows of the Damned is also good mindless fun, if a little on the "Way too fucking easy" side. Same applies to No More Heroes if you've got a Wii or PS3. Or if you've still got a functioning PS2 you might try tracking down God Hand. Or you could try Contact on the Nintendo DS. Or you could try the 2011 release of Mortal Kombat since Scorpion is a zombie. Or you could try Dead Rising 2. Or Crackdown. Or--
Fuck it. I'm just coming out and saying it. The Modern Warfare and Black Op games are so badly put together they don't even count as good mindless fun. With the very minor exception of the first one, there is just no redeeming value to the Call of Duty: Modern Warfare games at all.

[Camoufrage]

Not everything about Call of Duty isn't well made. You can shit talk it all you want but there are people in the Treyarch offices working their asses off nearly all day everyday to get this game out on time and you want to say its not well put together? Sure you can NOT enjoy the balance of the multi player and ignore the awesome zombie mode because apparently it doesn't count, but that doesn't mean it isn't well put together... I don't see many glitches and I don't see many bugs. It was put together fine, you just don't like the games. Which I don't either, aside from the zombie mode well worth the price tag. And who still likes the Modern Warfare games?

I love Saints Row 2 and 3, but 3 didn't capture the same fun that 2 did. Just about every game you told me to play for mindless fun I have. I never said COD was the only one or the best one for mindless fun, but its certainly what its made for and does it damn well even if its not the best.

[acewing905]

Dammit I forgot that I made this thread. Now I guess it's too late for any meaningful discussion about VNs. Where did all this random CoD stuff come from, anyway?

Oh, and CoD is great if all you're looking for is some mindless shooting fun, and it's a different experience to Saints Row 2. Hell, Saints Row 2 in fact can easily be replaced by the way superior Just Cause 2. CoD hating is for hipsters who claim they want deep stuff.

[Xanatos]

Dammit I forgot that I made this thread. Now I guess it's too late for any meaningful discussion about VNs. Where did all this random CoD stuff come from, anyway?

Oh, and CoD is great if all you're looking for is some mindless shooting fun, and it's a different experience to Saints Row 2. Hell, Saints Row 2 in fact can easily be replaced by the way superior Just Cause 2. CoD hating is for hipsters who claim they want deep stuff.

It's also for people who hate CoD.

Saint's Row 2 is far from Just Cause 2 at any rate. And JC2 needs a subtitle. Just Cause 2: Captain Spanish and the What-the-fuck-are-physics Grappling Hook

[Camoufrage]

Just so you guys know I got a PM to stop with the derailment if this thread... you guys should probably follow suit.

But thank you acewing FOR MAKING SENSE

[Xanatos]

Just so you guys know I got a PM to stop with the derailment if this thread... you guys should probably follow suit.

But thank you acewing FOR MAKING SENSE

Sense? What is this "sense"? We internet folk don't take kindly to that witchcraft!

[stanman237]

Lets get back on track

The things about a great VN is that when you re-read it, you could pick up all of the tiny hints of what is going to happen later on that you miss during the first run through of it. Then you feel stupid for not seeing what is going to happen on the first run. If anything Lily's cinematic is a great example

[acewing905]

Lets get back on track

The things about a great VN is that when you re-read it, you could pick up all of the tiny hints of what is going to happen later on that you miss during the first run through of it. Then you feel stupid for not seeing what is going to happen on the first run. If anything Lily's cinematic is a great example

By Lilly's cinematic, do you mean the fading in and out part with Hisao and Akira?