How do deaf people think?

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metalangel
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Re: How do deaf people think?

Post by metalangel » Fri May 11, 2012 6:47 pm

BlackWaltzTheThird wrote:This is, admittedly, a fascinating topic. If I may weigh in my point of view here...

<snip, no disrespect intended>

I certainly don't believe myself to be thinking in concepts only. There is something I recall one of my lecturers saying earlier in the year; "the invention of communication, be that spoken, written, or whatever other form, granted humans the ability to express themselves, while simultaneously placing a finite limit on the things we can express". I definitely think in English. But not written or spoken English. Just English, devoid of any definite form. Somehow. And that often causes me to have difficulty expressing what I think, because there isn't language to match it. To use a somewhat unrelated example, I compose music; however, I only do so in my head, because the sounds I (or any instrument) am able to make in the real world do not match the sounds in my head. This frustrates me greatly.
There is a sequence in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy TV Series where they mention an alien race with telepathy... except, it was perfect telepathy. They could at all times hear whatever another was thinking. It was, apparently, maddening and hellish, because they couldn't help their motives and feelings being known to those around them. The cataclysm wrought by Disaster Area's concert dispersed most of this power and at last they could have some privacy. They were delighted.

I've heard the same thing as your lecturer, that mankind is doomed to never be fully understood by his fellow man. Now, this is largely due to social graces/avoiding being punched in the nose (delete as appropriate). You *can* speak your mind all the time. Don't expect many friends. Oh sure, people will say, "wow, that guy is great, s/he really speaks their mind" but that will last up until you say something they don't agree with or didn't want passed on. Then they'll hate you too.

From what I've found so far, the Deaf community are very blunt... this is why many hearing people think they're rude. They'll tell you just what they think and fuck you if you don't like it. Accept your flaws (even if you think they're just in that person's opinion) or fuck off, basically. It's harsh but it's also honest. It's something I hope to learn and experience more of, as the pussyfooting and massaging of one's words to avoid upsetting other people can sometimes be annoying. That person is an ass. Everyone thinks they are. Maybe it is just better if they know? It'll be harsh (and I expect someone will think I'm an ass at some point and have trouble coping at first) but in the end you can give as good as you get and you're seeing the real person. Honesty is valued. Tangents you say?
Not sure where I was going with this. Looking over it, it becomes increasingly tangential as time wears on. Feel free to disregard my contribution if you feel it adds negligible content to the discussion.
Feel free. I don't think Shizune is culturally Deaf (we don't know what parts of the community she may have had contact with) but certainly everyone else in Yamaku thinking she's a bitch might well be explained by Deaf bluntness.

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Megumeru
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Re: How do deaf people think?

Post by Megumeru » Sat May 12, 2012 3:45 am

Sarah wrote:How did you think when you were a baby? :P
Speaking of this, isn't it strange that you can't recall the first three-four years of your life? It's that feeling that time went by so fast that when you open your eyes for the first time, you're in kindergarten singing and dancing. Sad or not, I can't even remember the time when I was still in my cradle...
Kutagh wrote:Thinking out loud without speaking, that is the best description for it I think.
That's the closest we can get, I guess...

...anyone have a recording of 'neutral's voice? At first I was thinking the voice could sound like 'Morgan Freeman', but that's not possible since knowing MF's voice means hearing and seeing him for the first time. Still, would be awesome if it is
Image
They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
"A writer is a light that reveals the world of his story from darkness. Shapes it from nothingness. If the writer stops, the world dies with it." - Alan Wake
Yes, I write stories. Currently working on: The Haunting: A Love Story

the deaf gamer

Re: How do deaf people think?

Post by the deaf gamer » Mon May 14, 2012 7:27 pm

metalangel wrote:
BlackWaltzTheThird wrote:This is, admittedly, a fascinating topic. If I may weigh in my point of view here...

<snip, no disrespect intended>

I certainly don't believe myself to be thinking in concepts only. There is something I recall one of my lecturers saying earlier in the year; "the invention of communication, be that spoken, written, or whatever other form, granted humans the ability to express themselves, while simultaneously placing a finite limit on the things we can express". I definitely think in English. But not written or spoken English. Just English, devoid of any definite form. Somehow. And that often causes me to have difficulty expressing what I think, because there isn't language to match it. To use a somewhat unrelated example, I compose music; however, I only do so in my head, because the sounds I (or any instrument) am able to make in the real world do not match the sounds in my head. This frustrates me greatly.
There is a sequence in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy TV Series where they mention an alien race with telepathy... except, it was perfect telepathy. They could at all times hear whatever another was thinking. It was, apparently, maddening and hellish, because they couldn't help their motives and feelings being known to those around them. The cataclysm wrought by Disaster Area's concert dispersed most of this power and at last they could have some privacy. They were delighted.

I've heard the same thing as your lecturer, that mankind is doomed to never be fully understood by his fellow man. Now, this is largely due to social graces/avoiding being punched in the nose (delete as appropriate). You *can* speak your mind all the time. Don't expect many friends. Oh sure, people will say, "wow, that guy is great, s/he really speaks their mind" but that will last up until you say something they don't agree with or didn't want passed on. Then they'll hate you too.

From what I've found so far, the Deaf community are very blunt... this is why many hearing people think they're rude. They'll tell you just what they think and fuck you if you don't like it. Accept your flaws (even if you think they're just in that person's opinion) or fuck off, basically. It's harsh but it's also honest. It's something I hope to learn and experience more of, as the pussyfooting and massaging of one's words to avoid upsetting other people can sometimes be annoying. That person is an ass. Everyone thinks they are. Maybe it is just better if they know? It'll be harsh (and I expect someone will think I'm an ass at some point and have trouble coping at first) but in the end you can give as good as you get and you're seeing the real person. Honesty is valued. Tangents you say?
Not sure where I was going with this. Looking over it, it becomes increasingly tangential as time wears on. Feel free to disregard my contribution if you feel it adds negligible content to the discussion.
Feel free. I don't think Shizune is culturally Deaf (we don't know what parts of the community she may have had contact with) but certainly everyone else in Yamaku thinking she's a bitch might well be explained by Deaf bluntness.

well not all of us deafies are rude or blunt we are shy or doesnt know what to convey because we didnt want to be judged or anythng like that but we are honest and tell you how we feel and what we think if you asked for opinions. dont judge a book by its cover :) just saying :D

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metalangel
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Re: How do deaf people think?

Post by metalangel » Tue May 15, 2012 2:44 am

FWIW, I said that because I've been told as much by deaf people, that it's something hearing people might not expect or understand. In this case, it seemed a possible explanation (but one I wasn't sure of)

I appreciate the honesty, and would rather be told than fed some distorted more palatable "truth".

the deaf gamer

Re: How do deaf people think?

Post by the deaf gamer » Tue May 15, 2012 5:11 pm

metalangel wrote:FWIW, I said that because I've been told as much by deaf people, that it's something hearing people might not expect or understand. In this case, it seemed a possible explanation (but one I wasn't sure of)

I appreciate the honesty, and would rather be told than fed some distorted more palatable "truth".
well some deaf people are dumb and most of them are spoiled and come off as superficial when they say things like that eh i wouldnt worry about it :)

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ShadeHaven
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Re: How do deaf people think?

Post by ShadeHaven » Sat May 19, 2012 2:16 pm

I've come up with an interesting question after reading several posts in this thread. Do deaf individuals talk to themselves? If so, do they sign to themselves, or simply think instead? I would imagine being deaf would allow one to becmuch more aware of their own thoughts, so would 'talking' to yourself actually be counterproductive in that situation?

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WorldlyWiseman
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Re: How do deaf people think?

Post by WorldlyWiseman » Sat May 19, 2012 11:45 pm

I keep thinking of questions about deaf culture (this seems to be the only thread to ask in for now) and figuring that I should google them first. I do so and I find tons of broken links that seemed like they would be really cool. Searching for how rhyming and alliteration and other poetic devices work in ASL keeps bringing up references to an ASL Shakespeare project that dead ends at the University of SF website. :(

Youtube brings up a few interesting ASL poems. I could watch this girl gesticulate all day. I don't know any signs, so it's like watching a cool little dance for me, and I'm curious as to what she's specifically changing about her signing to make the poem 'work'.
Hanako's favorite joke is The Aristocrats, but she never tells it because Lilly finds it really offensive. Instead, she practices her delivery in front of a mirror when she's alone. It's the only time she never stammers.

# 2
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Re: How do deaf people think?

Post by # 2 » Sat May 19, 2012 11:55 pm

Not being deaf, I have no authority on which to base any opinions, but, when I think, I don't always think in any voice.

For example, if I think I want a turkey sandwich, I don't hear a voice in my head saying "I want a turkey sandwich," unless I'm ordering off of a menu or the like. If I'm going to make a turkey sandwich then I 'see' myself making a turkey sandwich. First I get the image of where I keep the bread, then I 'see' which shelf I keep the sliced turkey on before I open the fridge. I have an image in my mind of exactly how much mustard I like to use on the bread. If I can't find the cheese slicer then I start visualizing all of the different places I may have put it the last time I used it.

Internal 'dialogue' can also go the same way, not so much thinking with a voice but thinking with images. If I'm lying in bed first thing in the morning, still half asleep, and really need to pee, but really don't feel like getting up, I won't so much tell myself to get up and go so much as visualize myself getting up and going.

So, I think that someone who has no aural cues to base their thoughts on may in fact think through visualization rather than through any sort of actual language.
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metalangel
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Re: How do deaf people think?

Post by metalangel » Sun May 20, 2012 5:02 am

WorldlyWiseman wrote:
Youtube brings up a few interesting ASL poems. I could watch this girl gesticulate all day. I don't know any signs, so it's like watching a cool little dance for me, and I'm curious as to what she's specifically changing about her signing to make the poem 'work'.
One of our more fluent signers could tell you, however the subtitles are in English, and ASL uses a completely different grammatical structure (general sentence structure is [TIME] [TOPIC] [ACTION]) so she'd either be using Pidgin Signed English or SSE to make it exact, or yes, she's changing it.

Signing songs and poems is apparently a popular method of teaching... and also one that I'm told is controversial among some members of the Deaf community. It doesn't teach you anything about Deafness, and given how songs are written it's not teaching you to take everyday English and interpret it either. To make it work to the music, the sentences are often broken into strange chunks and lots of arbitrary concepts are thrown out in quick succession. I'm also told this practice is more common among hearing ASL teachers than Deaf ones for this very reason.

the deaf gamer

Re: How do deaf people think?

Post by the deaf gamer » Wed May 23, 2012 3:17 am

ShadeHaven wrote:I've come up with an interesting question after reading several posts in this thread. Do deaf individuals talk to themselves? If so, do they sign to themselves, or simply think instead? I would imagine being deaf would allow one to becmuch more aware of their own thoughts, so would 'talking' to yourself actually be counterproductive in that situation?

well we dont really talk to ourself in asl. we just drifts off in deep thoughts as to what to ask and what to say thats about it

the deaf gamer

Re: How do deaf people think?

Post by the deaf gamer » Wed May 23, 2012 3:19 am

metalangel wrote:
WorldlyWiseman wrote:
Youtube brings up a few interesting ASL poems. I could watch this girl gesticulate all day. I don't know any signs, so it's like watching a cool little dance for me, and I'm curious as to what she's specifically changing about her signing to make the poem 'work'.
One of our more fluent signers could tell you, however the subtitles are in English, and ASL uses a completely different grammatical structure (general sentence structure is [TIME] [TOPIC] [ACTION]) so she'd either be using Pidgin Signed English or SSE to make it exact, or yes, she's changing it.

Signing songs and poems is apparently a popular method of teaching... and also one that I'm told is controversial among some members of the Deaf community. It doesn't teach you anything about Deafness, and given how songs are written it's not teaching you to take everyday English and interpret it either. To make it work to the music, the sentences are often broken into strange chunks and lots of arbitrary concepts are thrown out in quick succession. I'm also told this practice is more common among hearing ASL teachers than Deaf ones for this very reason.
not exactly its the same with deaf and hoh teachers in mainstream classes in high school they use poems and they also use pauses in their signs to make a story out of it.

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Re: How do deaf people think?

Post by SkyeGU » Wed May 23, 2012 11:20 am

I've been avoiding the forums until I finished the game, but now that I have four of the girls done (Lilly remains), I figure I can come out of hiding. For obvious reasons, Shizune came first. So:
WorldlyWiseman wrote:I keep thinking of questions about deaf culture (this seems to be the only thread to ask in for now)
As a recent graduate from Gallaudet, if you feel my opinions and perspective would be beneficial, ask away. I'm positively horrible at telling things, but I can answer questions like a champ.

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Total Destruction
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Re: How do deaf people think?

Post by Total Destruction » Thu May 24, 2012 6:12 am

I've been lurking this thread for a minute. Long minute, too. I'm getting a lot of cool insight from all of you guys and gals, which is, as usual, par for the course for these forums. Sucks for me, as I've got nothing to bring to the table, nor any questions I wanna throw out there.

I'll say this, though. The title of this thread is the single heaviest and most thought-provoking thing I've read on the 'Net in quite some time.

Carry on, KSF.

:mrgreen:
... Danger.

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metalangel
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Re: How do deaf people think?

Post by metalangel » Thu May 24, 2012 10:12 am

SkyeGU wrote: As a recent graduate from Gallaudet, if you feel my opinions and perspective would be beneficial, ask away. I'm positively horrible at telling things, but I can answer questions like a champ.
Do you think the Deaf community can be elitist or exclusionist? As a hearing person who wants to learn and eventually become an interpreter I am concerned about the reception I might get.

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WorldlyWiseman
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Re: How do deaf people think?

Post by WorldlyWiseman » Thu May 24, 2012 3:07 pm

metalangel wrote:
SkyeGU wrote: As a recent graduate from Gallaudet, if you feel my opinions and perspective would be beneficial, ask away. I'm positively horrible at telling things, but I can answer questions like a champ.
Do you think the Deaf community can be elitist or exclusionist? As a hearing person who wants to learn and eventually become an interpreter I am concerned about the reception I might get.
I guess this one's kind of directed at both of you (you might have spoken to certified interpreters, metalangel, maybe?) - what does an interpreter do if a conversation is getting really complicated or out-of-hand? Like people talking over each other, people joining in from outside the line of sight, lots of people saying different things, etc. Do they just stop trying for a complete translation and just start summarizing things? Do they stop including people who aren't saying anything relevant? Do they begin appending names to different lines of dialogue? Do you just start waving your arms around and handing out bitchslaps?
Hanako's favorite joke is The Aristocrats, but she never tells it because Lilly finds it really offensive. Instead, she practices her delivery in front of a mirror when she's alone. It's the only time she never stammers.

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