An odd revelation

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megiddo
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Re: An odd revelation

Post by megiddo » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:39 am

nemz wrote:Oh, and the first Shizune scene bothered me too, as even though Hisao was willing and able she didn't bother to ask his consent and he'd likely have been much happier to freely reciprocate. Clearly not rape ...
So I guess it's only rape if it's a girl who doesn't "give consent." If the man doesn't give consent, it's just inconvenient sex. What a disgusting mindset.

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nemz
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Re: An odd revelation

Post by nemz » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:25 am

I think you missed the part where we can read what Hisao is thinking and he's definately not considering it rape. Without that information, however, you would be correct to find it quite troubling and it still has some unpleasant overtones regardless, which is the point I was trying to make.
Rin > Shizune > Emi > Hanako > Lilly

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Re: An odd revelation

Post by Guest Poster » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:53 am

I read that scene as her wanting to insure privacy because she was planning on reciprocating his earlier trusting gesture but she still feels VERY awkward about her scars. She turns away to show him both because the scars are worse from behind and because she still desires some sense of modesty. His wanting to touch them was probably nervously expected, but actively coming on to her in this state probably caught her by complete surprise; I suspect that Hanako very rarely thinks of herself as being sexy, and her nude form even less so.

After that she was caught between being baffled but appreciative of his reaction, not really prepared for sex but also not daring to stop him for fear of ruining the mood that she saw as positive generally if still confusing. This isn't at all what she wanted or expected but she isn't against it either, and so just goes with the flow as best she can, awkward and a bit frightening as it may be, in the hopes that this can lead to equality between them.
Oh, definately, and that's what made the scene uncomfortable to watch. I think her 'sacrifice' was a rationalization made up on the spot though, not something she in any way planned.
I disagree. I don't think merely showing Hisao her scarring was all Hanako wanted to achieve, based on a side-by-side comparison between the chest scar scene and the lead-up to Hanako's H-scene. When Hisao shows his chest scar to Hanako, he specifically tells her he's just going to take his shirt off in advance to avoid her interpreting the situation in any different way from the way he intends it. When Hanako strips, she doesn't say anything to make it clear to Hisao she just wants to show off her scarring and Hanako is not so naïve as to believe her gesture was subject to only one interpretation. Also, when Hisao tells her he's going to take his shirt off, you can see what a baffled Hanako looks like. She doesn't even show a hint of similar surprise when Hisao comes onto her, which suggests to me that Hisao's reaction WAS something she anticipated. Hanako can hide some of her emotions, like anger or frustration, pretty well, but she wears her fear and shock right on her sleeves. I think the "sacrifice" was planned, the aftermath of their tryst just wasn't.
Kutagh wrote:
Oddball wrote:
Kutagh wrote:I don't call it rape either but if I was in Hisao's situation I wouldn't feel good about it if I found out she was having the sex because she thought that was the way to tie me to her (partially because it wouldn't be but my moral compass is another reason). I'd rather have sex when she's interested into sex as well. Recall the first sex scene with Shizune? That felt for me as viewer much more honest, much more like sex as it should be in a relation as I view it in my naive romantic way :oops:
I'm not saying I wouldn't have tapped her if she stripped and offered it, I'm saying that I wouldn't feel comfortable with it afterwards if I found out the sex was meant as a 'sacrifice' so I'd stay with her. But as Beoran said, this story is written in a Japanese culture with Japanese morals. My moral compass and culture differs and I'm not judging Hanako & Hisao.
Did you play the game? Hisao doesn't feel good about it afterwards and feels even worse then he finds out Hanako's reasoning for allowing it.
I did play the game, I didn't mention that aspect because I was talking about how I'd feel nor that I'm judging them, because I don't know their morals and culture.
The way you said it implied Hisao's reactions were somehow different from your own, but I can't see any difference myself. He felt similar to you afterwards and he felt similar to you when she disclosed the real reason she slept with him. I don't see where Japanese morals and culture come into play here.

Beoran
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Re: An odd revelation

Post by Beoran » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:59 am

I'm more tending to agree with guest poster here again, it would have been unbelievably naieve of Hanako to strip, say don't say anything and then expect Hisao just to think she wanted to show her scars. She's much smarter than that. Also, Hisao interprets her action as her asking for sex seeing that he strips after she does. While he was stripping, Hanako had plenty of time to say no if she thought Hisao had misunderstood her. Her silence during that minute says a lot.

As for Japanese culture, shy Japanese young men tend to be quiet... which would explain why he didn't say anything after the sex. Of course, I do think that ethically speaking, at that time after the sex, what he should have done then, as Hanako was smiling at him, is to hug her, kiss her and tell her that he loves her (or at least likes her very much) and if she responds positively, to ask her if she wants to become his girlfriend. That he didn't, and that's probably his own awkwardness + typical Japanese shy young man way of acting.

Mirrormn, I also agree with you. I think that the idea or the policy that consent must be voiced verbally at every step to be valid is simply wrong headed. OK, nonverbal expressions of consent can be misunderstood, but that's why we have verbal non-consent. The one person says no, or whatever, and then the other person stops, it should be as simple as that. And also, one should look at the situation, of course, if it's someone who you don't know well yet, of only have known for a short time, or the person is otherwise in a relationship, etc, then of course, you should certainly ask. But if verbal consent was required every time at every step in stead of nonverbal consent in the case where two people already know each other quite well and get along well and don' t have any other obligations, this would suck the romance and fun right out of it, not to mention that for many if not most people, voicing consent verbally is actually quite awkward.

One thing to keep in mind though, if you step backwards, and look at it as a whole, is that I think Hanako's story is intended to be a deconstruction of the "Moe cutie", and also punch in the player's face, a kick in the butt, and moral anvil that needs to be dropped. Hanako is NOT the weak, broken, pitiable girl for us to fawn over and play protector over. Although her traumas, lack of self-worth, and lack of social skills are troubling her, inwardly, she is a young woman who is resillient, intelligent, and caring for those who are her true friends, and loving towards Hisao.

The message to the player is something like this, I think: "You wanna play the white knight and protect the broken girl? Fine here's your bad ending, enjoy. Or not? But now you want to friend zone her just because she had a bad day? Well *fuck you*, or rather *fuck me* is what Hanako says to that. And since you, such an shy klutz who can't even say how he feels, don't even dare to think that you'll get to do any romantic love making! Raw, awkward sex is all you'll get! And you'l find out, she does it for your sake, since it's the only way she feels she can get through your think skull. And with more awkwardness to follow after it's done, no thanks to you. And it's only going to get better in the end because you finally listen to Hanako in stead of trying to read her mind, and then only because Hanako is brave enough to finally tell you about her feelings and break down in tears in front of you, not because you said anything when you had the chance to. So take that!"
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Re: An odd revelation

Post by Kutagh » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:14 am

@Guest Poster: Even though he might appear to act the same like I do, Hisao has a different history and character. And the whole point of my initial post was not to discuss the difference between Hisaso and me, but just to say how I would've felt in that case... I don't get why you keep dragging Hisao and how he reacted in the discussion.... And if you don't see where Japanese morals/culture come into play then you don't have any idea how different cultures can color the perception of how one views a situation and the perceived best approach for it.

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Oddball
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Re: An odd revelation

Post by Oddball » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:39 am

I think that the idea or the policy that consent must be voiced verbally at every step to be valid is simply wrong headed.
That would just really suck for Shizune.
And if you don't see where Japanese morals/culture come into play then you don't have any idea how different cultures can color the perception of how one views a situation and the perceived best approach for it.
You're tossing in variables where you don't need variables. He was felt bad and wasn't sure how to handle a situation. You said that in the same situation you'd feel bad and wouldn't know how to handle it. Saying that he's Japanese and you aren't means about as much in that context as saying he likes sweater vests and you don't. Feeling bad isn't something that only applies to a single culture.
Not Dead Yet

Kutagh
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Re: An odd revelation

Post by Kutagh » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:40 am

Oddball wrote:
I think that the idea or the policy that consent must be voiced verbally at every step to be valid is simply wrong headed.
That would just really suck for Shizune.
And if you don't see where Japanese morals/culture come into play then you don't have any idea how different cultures can color the perception of how one views a situation and the perceived best approach for it.
You're tossing in variables where you don't need variables. He was felt bad and wasn't sure how to handle a situation. You said that in the same situation you'd feel bad and wouldn't know how to handle it. Saying that he's Japanese and you aren't means about as much in that context as saying he likes sweater vests and you don't. Feeling bad isn't something that only applies to a single culture.
Feeling bad isn't something that applies to a single culture, correct, but the reasons behind it can differ.

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Oddball
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Re: An odd revelation

Post by Oddball » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:42 am

Feeling bad isn't something that applies to a single culture, correct, but the reasons behind it can differ.
So enlighten me. How does that apply here? What makes Hisao's reaction different from what yours would have been based on culture your cultures?
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Megumeru
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Re: An odd revelation

Post by Megumeru » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:25 pm

Mirrormn wrote: -snip-
Yeah I admit that is a poor way to display an example, and I stand corrected. But see here following the logic of Hisao--a healthy young male--being invited into a room with a girl and then soon after she strips right in front of you, you'll start getting ideas. I mean, this is someone who probably see a nude girl live for the first time (excluding the possible magazines he might have stashed somewhere). So he thinks it's consensual, and considering Hanako actually leads him after, it is consensual.

Agh I don't know, my mind's muddled with alcohol atm so I'll cut there before my head hurts.
Oddball wrote: That would just really suck for Shizune.
...are we going for another debate here? I'll crack my fingers to be ready :lol:
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They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
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Enemy |
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Re: An odd revelation

Post by Enemy | » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:32 pm

If porn taught me anything is that if a girl is consenting on sex she constantly shouts "AW YEA FUCK MAH PUSSY" and related stuff
therefore it def. wasn't consensual 8)

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Re: An odd revelation

Post by Guest Poster » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:09 pm

Enemy | wrote:If porn taught me anything is that if a girl is consenting on sex she constantly shouts "AW YEA FUCK MAH PUSSY" and related stuff
therefore it def. wasn't consensual 8)
Reality is unrealistic.

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nemz
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Re: An odd revelation

Post by nemz » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:35 pm

Guest Poster wrote:I disagree. I don't think merely showing Hisao her scarring was all Hanako wanted to achieve, based on a side-by-side comparison between the chest scar scene and the lead-up to Hanako's H-scene. When Hisao shows his chest scar to Hanako, he specifically tells her he's just going to take his shirt off in advance to avoid her interpreting the situation in any different way from the way he intends it. When Hanako strips, she doesn't say anything to make it clear to Hisao she just wants to show off her scarring and Hanako is not so naïve as to believe her gesture was subject to only one interpretation.
Feel free to disagree, but it doesn't change my opinion in the slightest. Hanako isn't Hisao, she's more emotionally affected by her scars and has a less bold personality in general so it wouldn't make any sense for her to suddenly make some declaration like "I'm going to strip down to my panties to show you something now, but don't get any ideas!" She does, however, make it clear when she starts that she feels obligated to share this because he showed her, and follows it up with the story of how it happened just as he told her about his surgery. This is an emotionally painful moment she's reliving, not the sort of thing one shares when trying to set a sexy mood.

And yes, I do think Hanako was a bit naive about the situation. She certainly understands that with other people this scene might go as it does but in her specific case and with her body issues I have a hard time believing that prior to this she has ever considered her naked body something that others would see as alluring. Sexiness to Hanako's mind probably entails being covered up but still showing her curves, so for such an encounter as this she was likely just hoping he woudn't be repulsed.
Also, when Hisao tells her he's going to take his shirt off, you can see what a baffled Hanako looks like. She doesn't even show a hint of similar surprise when Hisao comes onto her, which suggests to me that Hisao's reaction WAS something she anticipated.
Huh? I think you're forgetting that we don't see her expressions at all in the moments I was talking about because it's a CG clip and she's facing away from the camera. By the time we see her face again she's already committed herself to just going with the moment even though she wasn't really ready for all this.
Beoran wrote:I'm more tending to agree with guest poster here again, it would have been unbelievably naieve of Hanako to strip, say don't say anything and then expect Hisao just to think she wanted to show her scars. She's much smarter than that.
What does being smart have to do with it? This is an emotional and psychological problem, not a logical one. She sees herself as repulsive and expects others to as well. That's the underlying mechanism of just about every psychological body issue, self loathing and projection of those negative feelings onto others.
Also, Hisao interprets her action as her asking for sex seeing that he strips after she does. While he was stripping, Hanako had plenty of time to say no if she thought Hisao had misunderstood her. Her silence during that minute says a lot.
Hisao is far from infallible.

She didn't say no for all the reasons she latter explained. One doesn't need to actually want sex to find reasons to consent to it anyway.
Hanako is NOT the weak, broken, pitiable girl for us to fawn over and play protector over.
She is, actually, but she hates that she is. Hanako is searching for the strength and motivation to improve herself, not for someone who will enable her to stay as she is.
Rin > Shizune > Emi > Hanako > Lilly

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Oddball
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Re: An odd revelation

Post by Oddball » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:14 pm

Megumeru wrote:
Oddball wrote: That would just really suck for Shizune.
...are we going for another debate here? I'll crack my fingers to be ready :lol:
Well, you have to admit, she's never once gave Hisao verbal consent to have sex with her.
Not Dead Yet

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Re: An odd revelation

Post by Guest Poster » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:41 pm

Feel free to disagree, but it doesn't change my opinion in the slightest. Hanako isn't Hisao, she's more emotionally affected by her scars and has a less bold personality in general so it wouldn't make any sense for her to suddenly make some declaration like "I'm going to strip down to my panties to show you something now, but don't get any ideas!" She does, however, make it clear when she starts that she feels obligated to share this because he showed her, and follows it up with the story of how it happened just as he told her about his surgery. This is an emotionally painful moment she's reliving, not the sort of thing one shares when trying to set a sexy mood.

And yes, I do think Hanako was a bit naive about the situation. She certainly understands that with other people this scene might go as it does but in her specific case and with her body issues I have a hard time believing that prior to this she has ever considered her naked body something that others would see as alluring. Sexiness to Hanako's mind probably entails being covered up but still showing her curves, so for such an encounter as this she was likely just hoping he woudn't be repulsed.
Except Hanako was secretly hoping for a romantic relationship with Hisao, so if he'd be repulsed by her body, she'd be able to definitely put that desire to rest right there. Hanako doesn't consider herself pretty, she even says so herself, but she was most likely hoping that wouldn't matter to Hisao, just like her self-perceived uselessness didn't seem to matter to him. It's not a stretch to assume that Hanako sensed Hisao had interest in her in SOME way (although she was unsure as to the exact nature of his interest) and this was a way to test if that interest included a physical aspect too despite her own insecurities.

I think Hanako was aware of the possibility of something happening between them when she stripped and decided for herself that if Hisao did react to her, she'd let it happen. If he showed no interest or disgust at her body, she at least wouldn't have had to explain her disrobing and she'd know he'd never be able to see her as a potential romantic partner.
Huh? I think you're forgetting that we don't see her expressions at all in the moments I was talking about because it's a CG clip and she's facing away from the camera. By the time we see her face again she's already committed herself to just going with the moment even though she wasn't really ready for all this.
The CG part ends the moment right before Hisao leans in and kisses her, so if Hanako hadn't anticipated the possibility of intimacy resulting from her undressing, her reaction would be seen while she's facing the camera.

Nobody's arguing she was ready for it...she wasn't, but figured the ends might justify the means. The question is whether her decision to accept Hisao's advances were a spur of the moment decision made right there on the spot or whether she decided beforehand to let it happen if things came to that point and was aware of the possibility it might just come to that point. Given her lack of a shocked reaction, I personally believe the latter to be the case.

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nemz
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Re: An odd revelation

Post by nemz » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:54 pm

I think we agree on all the pieces, we just aren't putting them together the same way.
Rin > Shizune > Emi > Hanako > Lilly

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